mileskb

Yes, you are correct, sir.

Was that in March yes you are correct sir, or April yes you are correct sir?  :P

Yer thinkin' too much...

LOL yea well...  :D  :P

Seems you weren't paying attention in 'school'........ The whole point of this week's lesson is that this question won't be answered, other than 'soon'.

Sorry guys... I couldn't resist..   I hadn't been on in a few days and well....  seemed like things were getting too serious so I decided to interject my brand of smarta'rsery.   That and I almost killed myself yesterday when I was jamming along, remembered I had a wah patch and actually tried to operate with my foot..... while the Helix was still on my desk...    I mighta worked...  no fault of the helix that it didn't....    I seem to recall the floor being softer than it was...  

So after this side trip to the school of law and business.... the editor is coming out when?

Well for when I play live (which won't be for a while yet... have to put the band together) I'm either going with QSC K12's or the Atomic CLR's.   I'm leaning toward the QSC K12's just because they are a nice upgrade for my PA anyway.

As for now, I either use my headsets which are Sony MDR7506 or my custom Genz Benz Cabinet.

The cab is loaded with EV Series 2 EVM 12L's which as it turns out are pretty flat response speakers, but over a limited range... the guitar range specifically. 80hz to 8000hz.  They roll off outside of that range.  The slanted front (7 degrees) make a nice stereo field, and the ports provide nice bottom end.   I'm currently just using a QSC 1100 (50 watts per channel) amp.

If I end up in a situation where I want to use a traditional setup, this will do nicely.

I've always heard it "Not Available, Maybe May."

Busted....  I was combining poetic license with wishful thinking.

I'm just going to throw this out there.  I stumbled upon my setup somewhat by accident and it might get the creative juices of others flowing.

I started with Rockman gear so playing through "full range" cabs is not new to me.  In the 90's I had a custom Genz Benz cab built.  I have mentioned it on here before.

The short story is simply that it is a Limted Range Flat Response 2 x 12 cab.  The EVM Series II 12L's cover the guitar range with rolloff below 80hz and above 7K, but the range from 80hz to 7K is flat.   I'm currently driving it with a QSC 1100 (50 watts per channel) amp.  I get the "in the room" feel because they are real 12' speakers in the guitar range, but I'm also getting really good "simulations" as... well...  they are real 12" speakers in the guitar range... and they really don't seem to color the sound.

The cabinet is ported so I can kick the bottom a bit.  It sounds as least as good as playing through a pair of QSC K12's, but as noted, I don't get the "feel" with the K12's just the brilliantly accurate tone.  WIth the Genz Benz cab...  I get the feel too.  

The biggest contributor to the "amp in the room" feel is that guitar speakers are designed to move air.  I don't know the scientific way to describe it, but my favorite example is when my Bass player would use his Hartke 4 x 10 vs his Acoustic Refrigerator... It was a huge reflex cabinet with an amp in the bottom of it.  The Hartke sounded fantastic...  but if the stage wasn't elevated enough.. as soon as people got in front of the stage, that's where the sound died.   The huge reflex cab tho... I bet we could put it in the parking lot and it would still fill a small venue with bass no matter how many people were crammed in.  You could actually FEEL the air being pushed out.  On the Hartke, it was loud, but the cones barely moved.  

I'm sure a more engineering type could explain this better, but I believe that "amp in the room" part is due in large to how guitar speakers are designed as much as the range they can reproduce.

Indeed, and if Helix had four SHARC DSPs, or next-generation SHARCs, I'm sure we'd have no problem finding more granular elements of amps and pedals to model. I'll betcha $100 Ben and co. already have a list of things they'd love to do that Helix won't currently let them. No snake oil here.

 

It's not just about measuring stuff, tho'. You need a DSP and sound design team that understands why an amp or pedal component sounds and feels the way it does. Behavior modeling is much, much more complicated than measuring points in a circuit. Spreadsheets are easy; blending math and art is hard.

 

My posts are vague because I'm a product designer, not an engineer.

 

Slightly helpful insight might be had on Helix's blog page.

Without saying much DI really said a mouthful here that some folks have tic'd on, but it's worth repeating...

It's one thing to recreate components in digital form, it's something completely different to get those digital components to act as they do in the real world when they interact with one another.   I have been spending time creating some very simple patches... AMP + CAB and then an effect.  Maybe Reverb or Distortion, or Chorus etc..  Even WAH..  but only one or two effects on at a time.   And I've been playing with the effects  placement... before, parallel or after the amp and/or cab.  The way the blocks interact in some cases is just scarey accurate.  We've all played with turning the guitar up on certain amps and you can hear the clean-to-breakup/edge as you increase the volume... but other subtle stuff too like the way a the top of the WAH can cause a little breakup while the rest of the sweep stays clean.  Think the theme from Shaft style.  And even further, you can get just that breakup to affect a 60's Spring Reverb, just like it does in real life.   It borders on fuzzy logic or AI.   I know of no other modeler that acts like this to this detail.

I addressed this in another thread, but I think it's worth repeating.  Get TWO Helix units, spillover solved.  A few ways to do it, but essentially use one to "stage" the patch of the other one.  

The value added is that you have TWO helix on stage in case there is an issue, you could probably "live" with one.    If I start playing live again I will have a 2nd one ready to go anyway...  might as well make use of it.. and before anyone sais anything about cost...  it's no more than two guitars or an extra amp which ya kinda need if you're playing live anyway.

I thought about this lack-of-spillover and lag myself... I just haven't complained about because... .... If spillover is that important, I'll get two Helix units.... If I can't justify two Helix units... it just wasn't that important.   

A little more thinking on this and maybe the "2nd" helix unit be the Rack unit.   That would really give a LOT of options.  If the floor unit failed, I could have a FCB1010 or something as backup to switch the rack unit via midi to make it through.... some gigs it might be nice to only bring the floor unit and other times only the rack..   but if spillover is that important.... the cost is justified.   If not... it's just not that important...  

That's my solution.

I saw it at NAMM and did ask, and they said a couple of weeks.  They were not demoing at as such, but it was running on a computer there.  I didn't see it operate either, just on the main screen.   I DO NOT think it was vaperware as until the sales rep got distracted, I'm pretty sure he was going to show it to me.  

Anyway, it's been a couple of weeks, but we all know what NAMM really stands for right?  Not Available until Mid March.

I was doing fine with the Helix on a desk, but I'm starting to get into programming expression pedals... which really needs to have the unit on the floor.

I'm hoping to keep as much sound of my Mesa Mark V as I can.  So making sure this unit has minimal to no tone suck is important.  Not really looking to do Amp or Cabinet modelling in a live setting.   Unfortunately Helix doesn't have anything that sounds close to any of the Mark series amps - just the Dual Rec.

It sounds like you may need a new approach.   Being that the presets have amp+Cab models in them, they are going to be pretty crappy sending them into your real amp.   What you'll want to do is just use the effects you want, out to your amp.

Now for getting something for headsets or an FRFR, you'll have to find a model that is close to what you are using and tweak it.

Helix is a very powerful and unique tool.  You can't just dial up "US Double NRM" and expect it to sound like a Fender Twin, as it's not a model of a Fender Twin, it's a model of the "components" of a Fender twin, designed to act on each other much like they do in that amp.

So what you will need to do is go to a blank patch and add and an amp block and a speaker block.  Then find an amp and speaker that is close to your Mesa in components.   Once you get close, (same tubes, same type of gain etc.) you can go mess with all the sag, ripple, bias etc...  and of course tone and gain, to get the sound closest to your real amp, without effects.  Once there, you can then add the effects back in.

Hope this helps.  I'm sure there are other approaches too.

And at only twice the price! You work in gov't? ;)

Well considering what it would cost to come up with the gear it would take to replace the Helix, referring to just the few effects and such I use, I think that's a bargain and if it was my money-maker, I'd have two anyway.  Why not put it to use.  I had two rigs back in the 80's and just the amps cost more than a Helix today. I know a lot of folks think the Helix is expensive, against the choices out there, based on sound and quality, and certainly compared to buying even one set of "reverb, chorus, distortion, amp, cab, switching, cables etc...." of the quality in the Helix,  I think it's a bargain.   

While I don't personally have an issue with it, and I think there are workarounds, some folks, especially ones who play live seem to really have an issue and I have the solution.

Get TWO Helix units.  The easiest approach I can think of off the top of my head.. here goes.

1. Put Helix B into Helix A.  
2. Use Helix A as the Master.
3. As applicable have Helix B switch to the patch that is an issue when you set the Helix A patch.

Now there are SEVERAL ways to do this.  Helix B could come into a RETURN or probably better to have it come in via Digital.

There are several options for clean transition with spillover involving and depending on how you bring the signal from Helix B into Helix A and your specific needs.

And.... value added...  As you are playing live, you have your "backup" unit on the stage.  In a pinch, you just use one of them.

Problem solved.   

Where the Editor ( I hope ) will really become useful to me - is when the Helix is not in the same room - or near me.  For example normally my Helix is connected to the music iMac sitting on the baby grand - the normal "production rig". And with the USB from the iMac connected to the Helix all the time its not outside the house. 

 

But for many ergonomic reasons I prefer to work from my laptop in other rooms- to maybe the adjoining room and use Apple Remote Desktop to remotely access and control the iMac. 

 

So ideally i could be switching patches, changing settings - outs etc and controlling my DAW and Helix remotely.  For such situations an Editor - like the one in the Pod HD  is indispensable. 

 

In other words there are situations potentially where an editor app would be a key part of the production/tracking or just music-making process - when NOT on the road,

 

Just my tuppeneth. 

I agree, although for this type of setup for studio and live I actually like to use MIDI. 

Even better, just switch to a Mac. Much safer...

Unfortunately that's not as true as it used to be. Still true to an extent.. but the attacks on Mac's are getting more frequent.  Generally ransomware.. which unfortunately while mostly exists via porn, torrent and other darker sites...  has moved to more mainstream sites when possible because... well..   profit.

It's working because that is exactly what the chain would be if you were in a studio (or live gig) and you were NOT using any effects at the amp (the soundman is adding them afterwards).

 

​I know it's not the way the Jazz/Chorus Amp works as a standalone amp. 

​But it's actually the best way to run effects...post cab and mic.   :)

 

​That way all the guitar tone is already there. Now you're just sprinkling in the effects on top.

I really should have picked up on that... I've only been recording (admittedly on and off) professionally for 40+ years...  When I'm playing, my brain is in "musician" mode.. but you are right... as soon as I read the word "studio" above I put my "engineer" hat on... and it all just locked in like an epiphany.  Thanks for that...  feeling kinda dumb at the moment...  but thanks anyway.

For those watching...  they key is...  It's not JUST an "amp-cab" model.   it's an "amp-mic'd cabinet" model.   The real world reference is that in reality there are TWO signal chains once you add the cab to a path.   The "pre" mic path... and the "post" mic path.  WOW...

Thanks... this all explains what I remember hearing.   Forgot about the " so that every patch that has a volume block in it will be affected by that option. "  

cool

As an IT professional, to those holdouts with older operating systems... I get it.  I totally do... but please, please DO NOT hook any computer with less than Windows 7 to the internet.  I know of NO legit anti-malware or anti-hacking software that supports the giant gaping wholes left in those systems, and now more than ever, the intruders are specifically looking for those machines on the internet to use and exploit.  You may think you have nothing worth anything on your PC, but generally you'd be wrong if you are a typical user, and fairly security aware, you are likely vulnerable on some level for information that could be used by someone especially for identity theft.  I have even seen where malicious software does nothing more than use the XP machine as a conduit to monitor other things on your network, or a favorite of mine..  "Oh I just use it to burn CD's" and every CD either has a nasty virus on it, or worse yet Ransomware.    How would you feel if all the work you did, all the music you created was now unavailable to you ?   Unavailable that is until you wire your hard earned income to some 14 year old in Pakistan or China... and "hope" they actually  give you the code to unlock your computer.  

I don't mean to sound scolding, nor do I mean to sound like the sky is falling.   Just providing professional advise for free to my fellow community.   The move to Windows 10 was a legit endeavor by Microsoft to get back on top and ahead of the malicious software industry and get away from having to support operating systems they no longer produced.   So far, they have succeeded.  As value added, they got rid of most of the bloat that was even in XP and it's a good solid system.   However, the downside is the millions of people who were protected and reasonably safe from malware in the past, are now targets, especially of ransomware because it's so easy, with little effort to detect a non-Windwos10 machine on a network.  And additionally while hacking and the spread of malware can be prosecuted if caught....  most ransomware is "technically" legal if they are smart about it.  

I realize this is not the forum to go into details so if someone wants to discuss with me or ask any questions, feel free to contact me.   I just couldn't live with myself if someone here, just making some music, got nailed (not in a good way) and I hadn't spoken up.  

Now... LETS GET THAT EDITOR FOR THE HELIX ONLINE !!!!!!  (FWIW, I did see it at NAMM.  It exists, it just wasn't quite ready yet.)

Ok, I just stumbled onto something by accident.  I haven't tried it at full volume through speakers cause others are sleeping but in headsets and low volume it works.

I just put the Reverb after the Double NRM AMP-CAB block.  And it worked... sounded pretty damn awesome actually.  When I brought up the drive, the reverb obviously reacted as expected and I didn't need to change anything else.   I then switched the amp-cap to the JC120 type model, and changed the next block to Chorus.  That was pretty close too.   I even tried other amp-cab models some of which may or may not have reverb normally and it was fine.  What was/is really cool, was at least for the two Spring reverbs, if I muted them, the volume didn't drop.    I even started to get fancy and put a distortion block in front of the amp-cab block and that was fine.  It drove the amp and it just sounded like any amp would that had built in reverb with a stomp box up front.  

To be clear... the ONLY things in my path (for this experiment) are  AMP-CAP block  > Effect Block.   Normal wisdom would say that's not gonna work...  I certainly wouldn't plug the output of my amp into my chorus unit... but there ya go.

Now I'm trying to figure out "why" this works...  

I guess I need to go back and re-read my post where I mention to let my EARS do the work.  Just change stuff until you get the sound you want.   

Talk about thinking outside the box...

I saw in a video, at least I think I saw... some trick so that the pedal if some setting is set to global, is always a volume control.

Did I imagine this, or does someone know how to do this.  I remember when I saw it thinking that "oh this is easy to remember" and well... so much for that.

Hmm, and this one too.  I actually put this one in a couple of months ago, but didn't realize how important or significant it really was until today.

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Insert-Points-for-Amp-and-Pre-Amp-models-that-have-effects-loops/799585-23508

​So The Helix is actually doing the best thing in it's set up by NOT putting effects between the preamp and power amp models.

As long as you are not trying to emulate the sound of an amp that HAS the effects in the gain stages somewhere.   Don't get me wrong, I'm not diss'n the Helix.  I was in the 80's too, but I was going the Rockman route, so my sound was out the back of my effects which had speaker sims in them.  If I needed amps on stage, I used clean amps, and they were either mic'd or I sent the main signal to FOH.  Later I got the above cabinet essentially for me on stage, and they could mic it, or take my line signal...  I didn't really matter.  

I only ran across this threads scenario today when I was noodling on a strat style guitar and thought I would check out some classic amp sounds...  that's when I hit this wall.

Helix has by far some of the best sounds I've heard, but it seems a bit silly that probably the best "emulations" of real amps are likely accomplished by staying as far away from their model as possible and just put the pieces together with what sounds best.  

I guess a better title to the thread to ask why they bothered calling a lot of these "amp models" cause if you pull up a something that's supposed to have a Reverb, or something that's supposed to have a Tremolo and it doesn't...   what's the point?  

I also noticed some of the effects have different controls than the "real" version.  The 70's Chorus is an example of that.  Mind you, it's a freaking great chorus, and it may have been created with the CE-1 in mind....  but it has in some aspects MORE options than the CE-1 and in some aspects LESS.

Maybe that's the point.  Maybe they couldn't really nail all the features and sounds without getting into trouble.  

Still lov'n all the things it can do.   

Ok so I just tried doing the add the reverb to path B.   This was interesting and brought up all sorts of issues.  Now it sounded fine, but we're going for sounding like the original amp, which... without any effect... the amp and cab model is damn close if not spot on.

So I split out to a spring reverb and came back in after the amp before the cab.

I found the best setting was to set the reverb mix 100% and control the amount of reverb I was hearing with the Level B control when it comes back to Path A.

That was fine until I added some more gain...  and of course the amp block got louder and buried the reverb.  Also, in the case of an actual Fender twin, adding gain actually effects the sound of the reverb.  The Reverb is actually between the pre-amp and the gain stage so I'm not getting that..  I also noticed looking at the block diagram of a Fender twin that the Tremolo is actually between the Gain stage and the Power Amp !!!   I don't use tremolo that much so I never thought about it, but that would be much less straight forward than you would think to get to... when you already just selected the US Double Nrm and thought... WOW... just add a little 'verb and 'trem and I'm good to go...  not so fast sparky...

I can't believe I'm the first to notice this.

But with the Helix effectively you can put effects after the amp model and it does more or less the same thing

You can get really good tone, but it's not the same.  Especially in some where the effect (like reverb) changes a bit depending on the drive.  And lets face it, the idea of the models acting like their "real world" counterparts with regard to drive is where the Helix shines.

So, taking the JC120 as the example, it doesn't sound similar if you use the amp block, followed by a chorus block, and finally the cab block? 

Same for the Fender. It doesn't sound right lining up the amp, spring reverb, and cab?

"Similar"... ok I'll give you that.  but I think it could be closer.   On the actual amps the effects are between the pre-amp and the amp or between the gain stage and output stage of the pre-amp.   While doing the amp + effect + cab gets you a good sound, it actually moves it away from what the real world version actually sounds like.   

Running the effect parallel with the amp would probably get the closest I guess, but in some cases, the gain stage of the amp adds the signature "character" to the effect so that would be lost.  

I guess it's not THAT big a deal as they all sound good, but as I was just auditioning amps today, I noticed that I couldn't really just audition something like the two I've used as examples, because while the "basic" amp-cab selection sounds just like (to my ears) the real  amp without the effects, adding the appropriate effect was actually taking a step backwards until it's really tweaked/dialed in.

I personally do NOT feel adding an insert point into a AMP would be complicated from a user standpoint at all.  It would be closer to real world if anything and the possibilities... wow.

If you ever get to use a VOX Valvetronix series you'll know what I mean.  It has "stomp boxes" and "effects."  The stomps are insterted pre-gain, and the effects are inserted in between the gain stages so not only can you emulate classic amps with their original effects in the right place in the chain, you can use other effects instead.   Obviously no comparison to what the Helix can do overall, but in the sense of replicating the signal chain, they kinda nailed it.   

2 x 12 guitar cabinet? or is that a FRFR of some kind with tweeter or something?

It's a 2 x 12 full range cabinet.  It's a Custom cabinet I had built by Genz Benz before the term FRFR was a thing.  They eventually turned it into a model they sold as a guitar cab but this one is loaded with EV 20" (I think Force Pro) PA speakers. As I used it for guitar and keys and such for many years I purposely don't have tweeters in it, so I guess technically it's not really as full range as it could be.  But it has surprisingly good high-end for 12" speakers.  I've used it for DJ'ing and no one noticed :)      The model they decided to release based on my design was this http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid=1409&sid=631&cid=118#   but they changed the speakers to more guitar voiced.   I used Rockman modules for many years and rather than lug around two huge cabinets (I think Tom Scholz used cabs with a 15" a large mid and a tweeter) I went this route.  

I eventually will be getting K12's I think although I keep looking at the Atomic CLR's, but this cab with a decent amp in front if it is nice in the studio or rehearsal space or if I go live and the situation calls for a more traditional backline setup... I can use this setup for me and I'll just send what I want to FOH.

This is a bit off topic I guess, but you asked.    Like I said, I noticed some of the amp+cab combos I have dialed up are pretty spot on to the originals with this setup.  The "character" of combo amps like the JC120 or Fender twin or deluxe really are good.   I'm just missing the "effects" placement issue.

I hope the answer to this helps others as well.  In other words, I hope I'm not the only idiot that can't figure it out.

Lets say I want to create a classic (insert classic combo amp here) sound.  In this case for something to use as an example we'll say it is a 2 x 12 combo amp with reverb.

Interestingly I have a Full Range 2 x 12 cabinet (driven by a 100 watt full range solid state amp), and while the speakers are angled a bit and it's ported, I should be able to come pretty close.

So I select a 2 x 12 cab model with my favorite speakers and I select my amp.  So far so good.

Now to add that Reverb sound it's known for.  

1. I could put it after the amp model, but that's not really where it is, it's built into the combo between the preamp and poweramp. 
2. If I just grab the "preAMP" model of this amp... well, it's missing all the presence and tube adjustments so that's not right. 
3. I could put the reverb up front like a pedal, but that's not the right sound either.

I already put an ideascape entry for effects loops into the amp models but I'd guess that is probably a ways off... how do I do it.?

In fact, it seems a bit odd to me that if you are going to have an amp model, or amp+cab model, and the modeled AMP has a reverb built in (It's actually even in the name of the amp), and you HAVE that reverb (60's Spring) already in the bag of tools, it would seem it would already be part of the model.

Another example is the famous Jazzy 120 watt amp with Chorus.   Why even bother doing the model if you can't get the sound of the built-in chorus and reverb that this amp is known for?  FWIW, I have played through a JC120 for many years.  The amp+cab model is spot on.  But adding the chorus...  isn't straight forward.  Well if you want it where it belongs and sounds best that is.

There are a ton more examples but you get the idea by now.

Thanks in advance.

So this happened on two completely different laptops.

After clearing all the Helix apps off the PC's (due to the problem I'm about to explain) I install Helix which installs the drivers, helix app and updater 1.04.

I run the updater.  It immediately states it needs to be updated to ver. 1.07.   Here where it gets wierd.

1. If I update it to 1.07...  it no longer can be loaded.  In Task manager is shows up, but using 0% CPU and 10.9 MB RAM and it just stays that way.  It never opens.  Reboots, reinstalls... same result, two computers.
    
2. If I ignore the updater update, and just use the Updater version 1.04 that downloads/installs with the installer...  It opens just fine, sees the helix unit and allows me to update to whatever firmware I select.

Bottom line.  the "Updater ver. 1.07" does not work on at least two windows 10 installs.  One is a brand new (couple of months) ASUS Laptop and the other is an older Samsung Netbook N150 Plus I had been using cause it's small and convenient just to backup patches and do updates.

And to be clear... if I unistall all Helix stuff, and reinstall the version 1.03 Helix APP which installs the Updater ver. 1.04, all is fine I just need to ignor the "Updater needs to be updated to ver 1.07" or else it doesn't work.

Miles