mileskb

So I'm just a bit curious...
 
Been checking out my new JTV-89F and notice the pickup selector positions and wondered why they didn't wire the humbuckers to better mimic single coil pickup placement one would find on guitars with single coil pickups.
 
I did a mockup in photoshop of what I mean.  Has anyone here just flipped the pickups to achieve this?  It would seem we could get a better single coil on the neck or bridge position this way.

I could also see just flipping the neck pickup as a lot of the signature single-coil tones are from the neck pickup yet most single coils on the bridge are an an angle to really they start out a little further away from the bridge and get closer as you move up the scale.

Anyway... thoughts of flipping the pickups?  Pros and cons ?  Am I missing something?

While there's no excuse for faulty switches on brand new instrument (Yay quality control!), I learned not to expect playable out of the box a long time ago... from anything, no matter how much you've paid for it, or who's selling it to you. But especially not from an instrument you're buying sight unseen via the internet. Who knows how many planes, trains, and automobiles it's been on, (under no doubt delightful environmental conditions) to get to your front porch? Even guitars you buy in a retail outlet are rarely if ever in playing condition on day one... they've either been hanging on the wall for some indeterminate period of time being poked at by children in between periods of collecting dust, or they're rotting in the stock room in a box. My buddy's wife surprised him with an Ernie Ball EVH signature model for Xmas...the "US Platinum" version, a $3K guitar. The neck had so much back-bow, it looked like Captain Hook's prosthesis.

Yeah, I guess my expectations are high.  I've only purchased 3 other "new" guitars in the past 15 years and two were custom shop guitars so they came out of their cases playing themselves... I just needed to grab on and go for the ride.  The most recent was a an Ovation Adamas, they are gone over by several people at the factory before they leave.  

Never really thought about it, but another vote for "used" guitars is if they were indeed "used" by someone, than they are probably at least playable.  At least that's been my experience.  I rarely get a used guitar that isn't playable.  May have other issues, usually that's why I'm buying it... but almost always playable.

In any case...  A plus for the JTV-89F, is that it's pretty easy to setup.   Ended about 3/8's turn on the Truss rod, and about 1.5 turns down on the bridge height screws and no buzz or dead notes and nice action up and down the neck.  

The verdict on the 5-position is still out as I still had to mess with it today, blew more cleaner into it and cleared up...   We'll see if that lasts..   It doesn't feel mechanically faulty..  I may just take it off and soak it in cleaner and blow it out real well.     That's probably what it really needs :(

Figured out the update, just needed to plug in a 1/4" jack. 

Hi,

  I was going to do a video, but in the long run I'm glad I didn't cause after a lot of wow, nice, cool, neat.. there was WTF !!!!  and Geeez!!!

• The fit and finish of the guitar itself is great.  First impressions (although I have held one before) are things like nice build, nice paint, nice features.  I think I may even like the Tremolo as it feels a bit nicer than a standard Floyd Rose and I'm a Kahler guy.
   
• It was boxes nicely, the "soft case" is actually pretty nice, not what I expected at all.  I like the everything was packed.
   
• I'm glad I purchased the Variax cable separately.  The little piece of...  well nevermind.  I'm glad I bought a decent cable.

Now for the fun.... not..

1. So I plugged it in....   Right off the bat, the 5-Way switch is flakey as all get out.  I tried spraying some tuner cleaner from the front, and although there was some improvement...  I ended up opening up the back.   After I got that working, I starting going through the models and noticed the rotary switches were not engaging all the tones either... so with the back off I sprayed tuner cleaner in any switch and worked them well.   That "seemed" to clear things up... we'll see.
    
2. So I got to playing, and noticed it needed a serious setup.  No neck relief, bridge too high, etc..  Not sure what the deal is there.  Easy enough to fix, but for $1000+ I kinda expect playable out of the box even if not "my" setup.
    
3. So I installed necessary software and checked out the interface and decided to get the latest firmware update.  Ran Monkey and it sees the Variax, asks to update, do I wanna keep patches... (tried both yes and no options)  and after a few moments it fails asking to check that I didn't disconnect anything.  I thought it might be because I was going through the Helix, but when I just used the USB interface, it recognizes the interface but not the Variax.  So that's where that sits.   I just like to keep things up to date, and that's not working at the moment.

Bottom Line

I like the guitar.   After waiting many months for the funds to happen, I'm a little disappointed that I have to fuss with it to make it work.  Also while the guitar itself feels solid, the Variax controls and 5-way seem... well... cheap.   Looking at the parts, they look proprietary, but they sure don't look like they are designed for heavy duty use.   It looks like if I have to, I can replace the 5-way, but the other switches don't look like anything I'd be able to upgrade.  I'm sure they'll be fine, just expected a little more "precision."   If this was a $3000- 4000 guitar, I'd be downright pissed.  

Well that's all I have for now.   I'm excited to have it. Can't wait to create my first custom guitar which will be to imitate my BC Rich Bich 10 string.  I wish I didn't have to break out the toolkit on a new guitar to make it playable.

If anyone has any thoughts on updating the firmware...  I'd appreciate the input.

I would be interested.  I think 1K for a VDI wireless is on par with most pro wireless systems today.   If I was gigging (and I will be again soon), it would be a must.  

It would also be great to have one extra audio channel to plug in a headset mic.  Now before you role your eyes... it just needs a body pack you can plug a mini-xlr into.   I always hated having to wear two body packs.

Thanks specracer986,

    Been playing since I was kid.. (50+ years) and never could get used to putting a guitar in a softcase.  My first guitar was a box bought with S&H greenstamps and even it had a hardboard case.

I just had to tell someone.  Well, I told my other half, and she just rolled her eyes.  Some of you saw this and rolled your eyes, but I know it was for a different reason :)

1.  Anything I should check upon arrival (not the usual stuff, but stuff specific to the guitar)

2.  VDI Cable.  I ordered the Line 6 cable, but I have seen references to other more robust ones.  Unfortunately the links are old, so looking for any recent recommendations.

3.  Same with a hard case.  Looking for a recent recommendation.

Thanks in advance.

Mixed emotions...   I JUST moved to 2.20 on Wednesday :( 

Maybe posting a screen movie can clear things up? One recording of someone experiencing problems and another of someone who's happy with the tuner. By comparing the two we can see if there's different behaviour in units or if it is subjective

That might be easier than my idea of getting two people in a room to figure out what's different.   But this could work too as we'd end up in the same place.

I thought you were going to suggest a cage match. It'd be more entertaining at least.

I have been watching these assorted "Tuner" threads since they started.  Here are some observations and a plan-ish..

 

1.  The Tuner is great for some, and not great for others.

2.  The extent of great or not great knows no bounds, e.g. some can't use it all, and some won't use anything else and every option in between.

3.  Experience and skill do not seem to be a factor on where you fall in the usability scale of item #2 above.  Amateur to Pro, newbie or long time player.

 

So MY conclusion...  is we need to get at least TWO people into a room.  One who hates or at least dislikes the tuner, and one who loves it or at least uses it on a regular basis and let them tune each others guitars and document/observe each other and what works and what doesn't.  

 

This is the ONLY way this is going to get resolved.  

FWIW I am dead serious about this.  It would be one thing if it was just a "works" or "doesn't" works issue, but it isn't.   Personally, I love the Helix tuner.   It's easier to tune my 10-String on the Helix than the Paterson strobe..  

I have been watching these assorted "Tuner" threads since they started.  Here are some observations and a plan-ish..

1.  The Tuner is great for some, and not great for others.

2.  The extent of great or not great knows no bounds, e.g. some can't use it all, and some won't use anything else and every option in between.

3.  Experience and skill do not seem to be a factor on where you fall in the usability scale of item #2 above.  Amateur to Pro, newbie or long time player.

So MY conclusion...  is we need to get at least TWO people into a room.  One who hates or at least dislikes the tuner, and one who loves it or at least uses it on a regular basis and let them tune each others guitars and document/observe each other and what works and what doesn't.  

This is the ONLY way this is going to get resolved.  

Just FWIW, not all USB cables are the same,   Some, generally the cheaper ones, are wired for "charger" use only, and I have also heard about ones for Data only and don't charge, but I have not personally run across those...    the "charge only" ones I have run across all too often... 

I think you guys are overlooking a wide range of factors that go into what constitutes the sound of a given cabinet.  It's not just the speaker, it's also the design of the cabinet, the way the cabinet is constructed, the materials used in the cabinet.  And although early reflections can be a factor in terms of mic placement, there are also off-axis and distance differences in tone that are part of what you're hearing and vary from speaker to speaker.

 

The real question in all of this is, is it really worth it?  Ultimately whatever sound you produce on stage is simply going to be projected to the audience via the FRFR speakers of the PA...the same as it is today whether it's a mic'd cabinet or a modeler with IRs.  As I said earlier, this amp in the room thing is really only a benefit the the guy on stage.  The audience won't hear it, won't notice, nor will they care.  In fact in all likelihood they've never heard it.  It's not present in any recorded material, or in any live concert they've listened to.  How big is the market for people that would want such a thing?  They can get pretty darn close with one of the many FRFR cabinets available on the market.

Nailed It !!!

What you described is more along the lines of a room IR. I'm thinking

about something different.

- EXACTLY !!!

 

My idea has as its goal eliminating any contribution of the environment

(room) an mic from the model.

- I BELIEVE the "ENVIRONEMENT" is exactly what they are trying to create.

 

In other words, they want to

take their lightweight/flexible modeling rig anywhere, plug it in and

have the same experience as if they had brought all the original rigs

with them.

EXACTLY....   If they brought the original rig with them, it would sound like the room it's in BECAUSE of the bounce, radiance and reflations of the cabinet.   Unless you can apply those elements to the model, it ain't gonna happen....   Physics.

 

I think we are thinking the same idea, unless one models MORE than the speaker and amp.  However, the only person that really hears more than the speaker and amp, is the musician.  

Yes another way to look at it.... is...   Now that I have a modeler, why would I want to bring a cabinet and set it on a wobbly hollow stage, and have some 20 year old beat up microphone hung on it?  Yeah... there would be "in the room sound" but I don't want "that" room as my sound.    Not when I can get that "mic'd" sound and just give it to the sound man directly.

Good conversation...  as someone said... there are many "definitions" of in the room.

You can only model what you can measure. I think the key to modeling a signal capable of producing an authentic "amp in the room" experience (not sound, experience!) when feeding a linear amp connected to a cab in the room is to devise a device for accurately measuring the vibrations of the speaker(s) in the cab of the rig you're trying to model (without significantly altering said vibrations as it measures them). Microphones measure compression/rarefaction of air, i.e. sound waves, which is an outcome of the speaker movement in the context the speaker is moving in. The problem is that depending on where your microphone is placed, even a perfectly flat mic, the sound it captures will be different for the same speaker vibrations. If instead you had an accurate measurement of the speaker movement you could amplify that signal (linearly) and reproduce those vibrations on the speaker(s) of the target modeling rig to create an authentic "amp in the room" experience.

"You can only model what you can measure." another great take-away !!!   

In reality, another way to describe what you are talking about, it creating a room, maybe a 10' x 12' size...  have the walls ceiling and floor covered in sensors...   somehow "float" as best as possible the speaker cabinet in the center and then create a model at all frequencies based on those sensors.

When re-played through an FRFR rig, it should somewhat sound like the "amp in the room"  but again... it would just be that room the test was done which really isn't realistic.

I'm not sure how many people realize the classic recordings were made in studios chosen for their sound.  Record Plant, Sun, Abbey Road, Sound City etc all have a "sound".  They color the instrument.  

If you ever get to Sun studio in Nashville, the original one, you can play a few notes on the piano or guitar or sing a few notes, and you "hear" the sound that's on every recording made there.  It's freak'n eerie to be honest.  And that is the ONLY place it will sound like that.  You can do the same at the Old Ryman Auditorium.  I only mention these places because they are accessible.  In the Ryman, on "the spot" your instrument or voice takes on a sound that is very distinct.  

Frankly I think most people who are looking for "amp in the room" would be happy to just hook up a "buttkicker" to their amp system that transfers the lower frequencies to the structure (room) so you actually get that "in the room" amp feel.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/

.....  and while I'm at it... that Kemper "Pure Cabinet" function is marketing spew for adjusting early reflections and global eq.   

They can make all the demos in the world... they still sound like they are coming out of the speakers I am playing them through.

Then it dawned on me... I've never given a rat's patootie about getting good amp sounds. I wanted the sounds I heard on recordings.  Those were my holy grail. 

I think that sums this whole topic up !!!!   99% of people who are looking for their "holy grail" sound... have NEVER heard it, from an amp.   

But wait... I saw SRV live... I know what he sounds like.. BZZZZZZZT!  WRONG... NO YOU DON"T... You know what SRV's amp via a MICROPHONE AND CABLES AND SNAKE AND PREAMPS AND SPLITTERS AND MIXER AND PROCESSORS AND AMPS AND PA SPEAKERS sound like, unless you got on stage and sat in front of his amp.

Ok... let me back down a notch or two...   You just want that really cool full, shake your insides sound you get when you jam on your - insert your favorite amp/speaker here -

Well THAT's not going to happen with ANY PA speaker, because guess what...  that Fender Twin sound...  is not just a speaker.  It's a cabinet too.  The sound is coming not only from the speaker but it's radiating off the sides of the cab, and through whatever it's sitting on.  Same for your mesa cab and your Marshall cab and whatever..  

So here's my suggestion... You want "amp in the room sound from the helix"..  get an amp and speaker, and put it in a room.  

The closest you can get with the helix, as example of a Roland JC 120 in a room...  is...  Set the Helix to JC120 mode but don't use the cabs.  Take the line out and run it into effects return of a JC120.   It will sound like a JC120 in the room.

(sorry... my head was about to explode, I had to let it out).

I'm not sure if this helps, but (I know I sound like a Rockman fanboy) but compression was an integral part of the Rockman sound.

I used to do exactly as you...  I used my volume to go from clean-ish to crunch, and additionally I used my tone between 70% and 100% to accomplish punch.

The key with the Rockman, and I assume the Helix although I haven't tried it... is the 3 band Compressor is the FIRST thing in the chain not the last.   

The nice thing about being able to alternate back and forth between the modified and default snapshot settings is you can save either one before you switch away from the preset. You might decide you want your modified snapshot to be the default next time you pull that preset up. Or, as you suggest, don't save and leave the snapshot in its original state. Either way you can take advantage of the sort of limited redo/undo functionality this new change would offer to help design your snapshots/presets.

Egggssssactly !!!

Thanks for all the great ideas and feedback folks. Please keep the ideas coming. I guess I will put an idea up in Ideascale with your suggestions as to implementation and hopefully leave it up to Line6 to pick the best way to do it. The overarching concept being to make either "Recall" or "Discard" be easily accessible on the fly during a performance.

Bazinga...  I can see where this could be really really useful where you need to tweak a snapshot due to a venue or whatever...  but when it's time to go, you want it back to original "saved" version.

I see a lot of people just don't understand the concept of proper tool for proper job FOR YOU!!!    We are NOT all the same.

Se here's my take on Native...     I would use it in my studio.   Record guitarists with their amp, but mainly get a dry track so I can find the "perfect" sound, not the one we're stuck with.  I don't think my Helix will even hit my studio unless I'm using it.  No need.   This really opens the doors for a  LOT of producers.  

The real key.. I mean the real price of admission is when it's time to fix or overdub a track...  not having to spend waaaaay too much time trying to "recreate" the original tone close enough that no on will notice.   Just dial up the same settings and record a dry track.   Oh sure... there will still be ever so slight differences, but nothing compared to trying to match a full rig.   

What about getting a project started in another studio.   That other studio had a Dumble, or an AC30...  or or or ...  I don't have to start calling around the country looking for an amp to rent... just dial it up.   

Yep...   Native is awesome...   I'm glad I don't have to pay full price because I own a Helix, but I certainly would pay full price if it was the only option.   The $1000's of dollars it would save and my clients in the long run....   even used on just one project.... it would pay for itself.

I am happy to see this direction...   While the price point to me is in the "for a few hundred more, you get a Helix"...   I see a LOT of potential here especially when they start showing up used or with some sale or discount attached (much like the Helix itself).

1.  Right off the bat... a backup.   I've posted this since the start.  If I was gigging, I think I'd either have a Helix Rack or likely just a 2nd Helix at the ready.  This LT unit would make an excellent backup as well.  Useful for backing up more than just the Helix if needed too, but not as pricey.

2.  A complete re-think...   If I spent more time in the studio, and just some time gigging, I might just opt for the Rack in the studio and the LT for gigging.    As it is, even the Helix in the studio with the LT for gigging isn't a bad idea.

3.  Now I'm not sure how a novice to the Helix family would fair, but I could totally see just using the Helix DAW plugin in the studio, and then just the LT for gigging.

The bottom line seems to be if you like the core technology (modeling engine and such) from the Helix family, you can now get whatever size I/O fits your needs.  This is really forward thinking.  

Well done Line 6

I still haven't figured out what to do with the 3 band compressor..i guess I'm too much of a guitar player lol

It's the key to the high gain/compression sounds of the 80's.  I haven't tried it yet, but can't wait.    FWIW...  3 band compression is the first effect in the "Boston" sound and was actually built into the Rockman gear.   Nicest part of the Rockman XP/XPR gear... unfortunately there was no way to bypass it.     but I digress.

"Scratch and dent" generally means some minor cosmetic flaw, or a few pick scratches if it was used as a demo....got mine from Sweetwater too, and I had a hard time finding the "scratch".

 

But to me "refurbished" screams "this thing had a problem"...otherwise there's nothing to "refurbish". Same reason I won't buy a used car. You never know what you're getting, or what was done to it. And warranty or no, as far as I'm concerned, a unit that already has a history of problem(s) is more likely to have future issues than one that hasn't been out of the box yet.

I'm just the opposite for the most part.  "Refurb" in my experience is more "checked over with a fine tooth comb".  Maybe a return, or re-box, just something that prevents it being sold as new.    It's like the advantage of "used" (see below) but it's new at a lower price.

Also, refurb pretty much guarantees it's been checked over and is 100%, where new items like guitars, they may only be checking 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 out the door. 

If I can buy used, I do, I prefer refurb, or certified pre-owned, but....  While sometimes it's just nice to have something "new", things like cars and guitars and tools, let someone else work the kinks out, deal with the immediate depreciation and high insurance.

Come to think of it, the only new guitars I have were custom made for me, or the latest was one that was used as the sample new model that was at the NAMM and Musikmesse conventions... so technically it's "factory refurbed".

A custom, hand-made guitar is worth EVERY penny.  Mine are made by the master Neal Moser.   I also believe you should get a custom made pair of boots (Tony Murga) and if you are into that sort of thing a Tux, but those are for a different topic.

Seriously, I really have a hard time justifying any "production" made guitar in or above the $3000 mark.  I'm sure they are fine instruments, but that's well within custom hand-made territory for which there is no comparison.