PaulWilliamson

Thanks, I appreciate your advice, but unless I'm missing something, that is sort of a work around rather than a fix. It means editing each preset individualy. 

I would have thought the digital output using L6 Link at any given setting should be gain matched to the other outputs. Line, XLR analog at say zero dB should be the same volume as L6 Link at zero. 

I know its not a major issue, but its just puzzling and I wonder if its by design or just some anomaly of the firmware.

 I have the same issue, using the L6 Link connection there is a considerable volume drop to my Powercab+

It just seams odd that using the supposedly optimum connection method, there is such a drop in volume. 

I too want the ability (when the next update arrives) to control the Powercab+ speaker models through the L6 Link.

But why should it mean having to run the Powercab+ at a much higher volume setting to get the same output as either Line or XLR.

A factor that makes this slight issue worse, is the inability to alter the L6 Link output independently from the Helix.

I appreciate that the Line 6 Link reduces digital to analog conversion, but the lower output negates any benefit from this.

I'm hoping it's an oversight that can be rectified, because I have gone back to using an analog XLR connection. 

To me it sounds fuller and more convincing than the slightly feeble digital L6 Link output signal I was getting.

That's a very comprehensive and easy to follow explanation, Thanks.

I think your comment "I'm simply going to use whatever sounds best" is your answer, Every bit of gear we use adds or subtracts 'something' to the final sound we hear.

I really think with Powercab+ there is no right & wrong.

In principal you should try to avoid having duplicate IR's or Cab models anywhere in your signal path, ( unless you decide you want to because you like that way it sounds).

The idea of Flat LF Raw is just to give us a different option, The actual 12' speaker that's in the unit with no processing applied, if you like the sound of running that with a cab or IR from Helix, no one can say that's wrong. if you like the sound it's right for you.

I spent the first year with my Helix running it without Cabs or IR's through a Marshall JVM using the 4 cable method, Then I discovered I could get pretty good results using the Helix cabs through the return input of my old Line 6 'Flextone' Combo, which was one of the first modelling amp's, so it had a fairly flat response 12 inch speaker ( with no HF unit).

After using amp's since 1974, I personally found it difficult to get away with only using the final fully processed sound you get from Helix when just going into an FRFR speaker.

I did miss that playing into an amp thing that Powercab does provide when using the speaker models.

So although there are principals to follow, There's really no right or wrong.. it's like telling Picasso 'you shouldn't have used that colour' if he decided that the sea isn't blue.

One thing is clear.. there is plenty of room for confusion... there's a fair amount of reviews, YouTube vids and other info on the web that add to the confusion.

I'm really just writing this here to get my head around it.. I'm 60 you know :) :? ...Have I had my dinner ??

If you go by the user guide, It seems that the different modes that can be selected when using the speaker models in Powercab+ ie LF Flat & *LF Raw ( *labelled Solo in the manuals which again could be confusing) turn off the high frequency driver and Flat is a flat EQ on the 12 inch. with Raw being the 12 inch speaker with no EQ applied. It also confusingly says in the manual, LF Flat is the voicing used when in Speaker Mode which suggests that the only time you would use the HF driver is in Flat ( FRFR ) for sending a complete signal chain including IR's or Cab's to use Powercab as a FRFR system.

So to try and answer your question .. eventually.. :) 

Amp In The Room = The Speaker Models ( No IR's or Cab's going into Powercab+)

Traditional Guitar Speaker Behaviour = The 12 inch Powercab Speaker on its own,  either Flat EQ or Raw ( Solo)

It's mostly marketing hyperbole, and I think as long as your using the Powercab+ Speaker Models, with no IR's or Cab's in your signal chain your getting 'close to' both descriptions.

Unless I'm completely mistaken.. Hope that wasn't too long winded.

Hi feffa86 :-  It just clearly sounds better using the XLR output.. I had no intention, and I'm not 'changing' between L6 Link & XLR, I have found to get the best sound going into my Powercab+, (and the facility of the L6 Link,) using both connections to the Powercab+ at the same time works best.

I noticed that when using the XLR analog output every one of my Helix presets sounded louder & much more dynamic (better) driving the Powercab+ (without any adjustments to Helix output block or powercab input gain ) when compared to the L6 Link output alone.

But as I stated, when the 2.80 update arrives, I want the ability to change speaker models using the L6 link.

So it seams odd that the L6 Link is quieter than the other Helix outputs on stock settings..

Hi SteveFrance :- I have to set my Helix volume knob way past 2 oclock to even get into the occasional orange blip of the 

Powercab clipping light using any of the Helix outputs... and My Powercab+ USB output (from PC) is massively  louder than the Helix output.

Hi Guys

I'm finding the lack of L6 Link output control from Helix to Powercab+ mildly annoying..

To get the same output level from L6 Link as all of the other outputs, I have to raise the output block for each patch by 10.0dB and raise the Powercab input level by 10dB.

Helix & Powercab+ are both fully updated.

I'm using Helix to one Powercab+ with a 110ohm L6 Link XLR Digital Audio Cable for L6 Link connection.

I can use XLR or 1/4 outputs, but the idea is that when 2.80 arrives I want control of the Powercab+ speaker models via L6 Link ( currently using midi which is quite time consuming if you want to control a lot of presets)..

The digital output can be raised in Global but this has no effect on L6 Link output

So I'm currently using both XLR Analog and L6 Link to Powercab+ with normal output block settings, with the Powercab+ input gain set at 10.0dB. 

This helps reduce any phase issues as the l6 Link connection is roughly half the volume of the XLR

Has anyone else had similar issues ? 

Thanks

Paul

As has been mentioned may times, there are so many variables ...

Firstly no two people actually physically hear in exactly the same way.. if you have ever looked at graphs depicting the variation in frequency sensitivity we all have, you can easily understand why to some a shrill gritty buzz is the perfect distortion sound.

Variables...

Every individual electrical component can vary slightly from another 'specification wise' identical component.. so in the real world two identical amps never sound exactly the same.. Then there are the myriad of other considerations that effect the sound we end up with.... everything from speaker cabs/pickups/pick attack/boost or cut from pedals in front of the tone stack the.. etc etc etc .. the list of variables is utterly endless.

I recently returned a 'new'  Helix floor as the box had been opened.. There was evidence that the item had been used.

It sounded absolutely great, I had used it into a P.A. & at home into the return of a Line 6 Flextone modelling amp. similar principle to the new Powercab I guess as the Flextone also has an Eminence speaker specifically designed not to colour the sound too much. Some presets needed the cabs off, but others really nailed the tones in my head... I'm sixty this year, so I have owned a few of the classic amps of the late sixties & seventies.

Unfortunately though this Helix Floor  had issues with software updating. it froze up during the update process.. although it would update from file.. so bearing in mind I bought it new, and I knew the box had been opened, I returned it.

The replacement sounded slightly different... no.. not my imagination. :) 

There was a slight but noticeable shift in the overall sound of the output...   out of the box, all of the Factory presets  ( which I feel should be looked upon more as templates or guides to tone shaping, due to the variances of real users amplification solutions)  sounded more samey.. less of a difference between them and overall a slightly boxed in tone that coloured everything very slightly... I checked everything.. Global EQ - output settings - guitar pad - individual patch settings - cab & Mic settings etc etc.. .. I couldn't find any reason for it anywhere.

I was convinced the second unit must just produce a slightly differently sound to the original unit.

Now... either my hearing had changed over a four day period, ...

my memory of the sound I 'had' heard had deviated form the reality of the sound I 'had' heard..

or it sounded different.. 

So having made a complete back-up of the first Helix.. I loaded that into the replacement... there it was. The slightly boxy overtones had gone and the unit sounded the same as the first one. So it must have been a setting somewhere.

I can not find anything in the setting parameters either globally or on individual patches (or IR's) that is different.

I was wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience ??

I will wait to see if when the next firmware update comes out, this unit still updates correctly.

My point was going to be... Oh yeah.. variables.. so many of them, but it just when I thought there may be good sounding Helix devices and not so good sounding Helix devices, it looks like it was probably a software or setting issue (that I still can't identify).

So what sound are we all trying to get ? .. ultimately the only realistic answer to that is the sound you hear in your head. 

On a good day with a following wind we may get pretty close :)

Enjoy your music

In a nutshell, this newly announced 'Powercab' is using the exact same principle I had described in my initial post.

As I said, I found that for me the most realistic amp sounds using modelling tech, was into the return of a modelling amp.

The Line 6  Flextone amp I have been using of late, has a fairly FR 12" Eminence speaker. 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line-6-powercab-112-and-powercab-112-plus.1931154/

Powercab    It clearly seams I was doing something line 6 agree with... Even a PA system has its own cab resonances.

As stated.. I was trying to emulate an Amp in the room, which you can not get through a traditional PA. I have found so many people on here very fast to jump in and criticise anyone else's methods. I have been playing for forty five years now, My first proper amp was a second hand original Marshall 1959 super lead. I bought it in 1976.

I don't come here to criticise anyone or tell anyone their sound must be a mess.

Too many smart Alec's who know it all on here. 

Regards

Paul

A modelling amps cabinet is usually fairly neutral .. as I say, most normal amps cabinets really effect the tone, less so a modelling amps cabinet.

Have you tried it ?

I have tried various methods, 4 cable into various tube amps, QSC PA active monitors,  I've tried stereo rigs with two identical tube amps running into the effects return and that can sound great, but then the power amp valves impart either EL34 or 6L6 overtones, so for me, the most authentic sounds I have achieved have been into the return of a modeller.

I have a number of tube amps, I can sit them next to each other and edit tones in a way that all but removes the effects of the modelling amps cabinet.

Sometimes I will not use the cabs, mic & IR's.. Bear in mind, a good modelling amp needs to emulate some fairly big tonal swings. if they made the cab less than reasonably  transparent how would they get the models anywhere near ?

Each to their own, some will much prefer the polished sound of a complete pre-set cab & mic through a PA. but I get a more convincing AMP sound using this method.

For the Helix I'm currently using an old Line 6 Flextone, and it really does sound better than any other methods I have tried.

Hi Nelder17

There are so many variables when trying to get accurate 'good sounding' tones with even the best modelling gear. 

It largely depends on whether you want to have a guitar amp sound, or a mixing desk guitar channel played through a P.A. sound.

Good sounding to one is bad to another.

If you have ever listened to the Helix headphone output, through quality monitoring headphones,

You will not hear anything even close to listening to the real amp that is being modelled.

I feel this may be why so many new to modelling, claim that most model amp distotion is fizzy and harsh.

After playing various valve amps for around 45 years, the most realistic modelled amps I have heard have been through fairly neutral guitar cabs. Playing a guitar through a HiFi, what else would anyone expect other than more high end and fizz than a guitar amp would ever produce.

Don't expect a full range flat response speaker to sound exactly like any tube guitar amp.. show me an actual guitar amp cab ( except acoustic amps ) with a tweeter ?.  

Many people with the Firehawk 1500 struggle

to get a good accurate guitar amp sound coupled to Helix.

Using FRFR Try using Hi-cut on the cabs in HX Edit. Using a complete Helix patch with cabs & mic, your really listening to what an engineer might hear in the mixing booth, not what as a guitarist you usually hear from an amp.

I have been using modelling tech and valve amps since my fist Flextone amp.. I have found almost all guitar modelling tech sounds more like the valve amps it is emulating, through a modeling amps effects return. All cabs play a much bigger part in the over all guitar sound than most people would think.

I have always found modelling amps to have fairly neutral sounding cabs, so it's felt more natural for me to start from there with Helix.

Good luck :)

I agree... 100% wasted energy !

Helix cost me £1.199.00  ($1.689.11) at UK prices.. (US only 2 year warranty extension / US only special deals )

I was merely asking a question, if other people’s Helix Floors arrived in the same state, it would have put my mind at rest.

Enjoy your music.. 

P.S. My car is actually a 64 Ford Anglia 

Well looking at the position of the power switch on the Helix, if the box had taken a sudden drop, the foam could deform to absorb impact but push the switch into the on position.

I checked this by re fitting it back in the two foam inserts, if you push in the right place it activates the switch.

That wouldn't explain why it was on Factory Pre-set 2 Rhythm Sandman though.

All pre-sets are as they should be, and it seams to work flawlessly.

I'm actually more concerned by the complete lack of new electronics smell.

I registered it OK, (so looks like it's not been done before) .

I know quite a few people return items, but the protective plastic is over all the scribble strips & screens, the USB is still sealed along with the usual cables etc.

I did think as I opened the cardboard outer box that is wasn't taped anywhere, but there were no marks where any tape might have been.

The branded Inner sleeve and inner box are completely unmarked, and there was a circular plastic seal tape that looked completely untouched on the inner box.

I'm probably being paranoid, It's not every day I spend more on a guitar effects processor than I did on my last car :)

I cant fault it as far as condition is concerned, but theres been absolutely no new electrics smell.. most gear has a new smell lol..

Dear Mr Dealer,

I'm returning this perfectly presented article as it doesn't smell quite like a new one should !

It needed updating.. I think it was still on 2.21 before  updated it. and it froze half way through the update asking to be re-booted.. 

I had already downloaded the latest firmware so I just updated it from that and it was fine.

In a way that makes me feel better, If it had been sent out and returned, it probably would have been updated to a more recent firmware.

I don't remember my PodXTLive sounding this good without quite a bit more tinkering. :)

Hi Everyone

I opened the box on a brand new Helix Floor today, it was in a plastic bag,

but the white paper warning seal that says once you open this you agree to Line 6 terms & conditions may have been re-stuck onto the polythene.

I was surprised to find that as soon as I plugged a power cord in, it fired up on pre-set

FACTORY 2  Rhythm Sandman..  The power switch was in the on position ? 

It looks fine no visible issues, but I just would like to know if any one else got a brand new unit that had the power switch on

and was set at some random FACTORY pre-set.

Works fine.. already tried a few different ways to hook it up, best I've found

so far is in Stereo split between the returns of an old Flextone Amp, and a Fishman Loudbox ..

the tweeter can be controlled on the loudbox to balance just enough treble

detail with the midrange to give very convincing Amp tones.. I started by just getting the amp models to sound as real as possible.

I'm old.. I've heard quite a few .. once you get the basic tone of one about right, ( with both H/B & S/C pickups ) you know your in the ball park.

Anyway.. I ramble .. :)  ..  I hope someone can remember if their new Helix was turned on when they got it, just to put my mind at ease :)

Regards 

Paul