havkayak

On 1/2/2020 at 9:34 PM, Line6Nelson said:

@havkayak, I'm able to reproduce this and the cause is known. Until this has been formally addressed, you can work around this issue by increasing the "Bass" value to 0.1.

 

Thank you.

On 1/2/2020 at 10:05 PM, rwhite137 said:

Sorry for the late reply, but I'm just reading this post. I noticed that you have the Texas Cali amp model in your preset with the bass set to zero. There was an issue of volume loss on a preset with the Texas Cali amp bass set to zero. I had this same thing happen to me when they first added the Texas Cali amps. I reported this bug to Line 6 support and they confirmed that it was a bug. I don't know if it has ever been fixed in another update. I kept adjusting the bass on my preset one step at a time and the bug went away after setting the bass to 0.8 or higher. Might be worth a try. 

Thanks! Really interesting what you write! I've never seen what you say about Cali Texas, even though I've been searching quite a bit for Helix bugs lately. Though I did not run into the problem when running the amp in another chain-design. But then I might had the bass above 0.0. It makes sense, because I've never seen the problem after placing five (I think) other amps in the chain. I will try it out for sure.

I have absolutely no knowledge about how this software is constructed. Well, I have no knowledge in programming at all. But IF the problem is isolated to that amp, then I assume that this chunc of information (Cali Texas) will not be in the RAM if I choose another amp (Litigator). My thoughts have been that it could be some strange "interference" between two or more blocks when tweaked in the "right/wrong" way to each other. The Line 6 version of the patch worked fine, but it was tweaked differently. When I tweaked it, it stopped working. (Silence between 30 minutes and three hours.) In my head, then the bug could show up anywhere/anytime, just like a lottery.) If this is the case (problem in a chunk of information that I can ommit), I might even lower my shoulders when it comes to my worries about instability of the software. Then I could trust a patch (read an array of tweaked blocks of information - in my head a patch is just a log-file of "settings") if I test the patch for a period of time.

Line 6 reported the problem as gone in their version of the patch. I will for sure load their version of the patch again and see if the bass in Cali Texas is abowe 0.0. But if this was confirmed by Line 6 as a bug a long time ago, and they are not able to fix it, then I think they should at least inform about it.

So if anyone could confirm (or dismiss) any of my software assumtions, it would be helpful for me. At least as a first step towards trusting my Helix again ;-)

Thanks again!

33 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

And more than one of us did confirm your preset had a problem. 

Then I built your preset from scratch in both Native, and on the Unit itself. Both presets DID NOT suffer the same problem.

 

Those are my findings... as you have clearly stated, my opinions were not asked for. I'm sorry I provided those without your request! 

No, that is exactly what I talk about. It's nice that you came to that conclusion. Others might find something else. If nobody else find it, it will be a closed case. Line 6 will hear nothing about it. In the other case, then you alone can't prevent it. Then Line 6 will look into it. But what you now imply, that I don't like that you share your experience, Is totally wrong. Opinions are wanted if they are focused on the case itself, and not the OP.

27 minutes ago, bsd512 said:

I can see losing a little confidence in something that has a (minor) flaw. However, extrapolating that minor and easily rectified flaw to a larger or more frequent and higher probability failure leaving you silent at a gig doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, it tends to indicate that you are not prepared to deal with any issue, like a bad cable or similar. No product is perfect, stuff happens. And you can extrapolate that statement to all aspects of life.

 

Move on to another product if you must. I don't see a fan club here, I see people confirming the flaw and offering work-arounds so you can navigate it. If you do move on, be prepared to deal with different flaws from the different products or rigs you go to next, or you'll be jumping from modeler to modeler and spending a lot of time and money unnecessarily.

Well you are right in many things. But not on the conclusions you make for me. I have no problem. I dealt with in my way - and for most people that's the best way. I've just shed light on a phenomenon (well, two). If that's not allowed in her, yes, then I get the "fan-club" feeling.

5 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

This isn't a technical forum, its a user support forum, meaning users provide support to each other.

My support was that someone MIGHT find something, or give focus to something similar or crossing. If there is, and it is reported to Line 6 tech support, it can be a benefit for the whole community. In many cases you don't notice a problem before the light shines on it. In this case it might be, or it might not. It's pure and simple logic. So I disagree with you. This is a technical (support) forum, where such posts also should be found.

And thank you for clearifying the somewhat odd titles given in this forum. If you are right, it's actually a relief.

3 hours ago, codamedia said:

@havkayak

 

I will try, one last time to help you! 

 

The patch that I created from the images in your OP works fine. It does not go silent after 10 hours let alone 3, let alone 30 minutes, let alone 30 seconds.

 

You need to ELIMINATE YOUR COMPUTER from any processes you are doing by building your preset on the Helix. Don't even connect the Helix via USB during the procedure. This is the only way we can eliminate your computer and/or HX Edit from causing the problem! 

 

This advice has been given to you several times during this thread. You appear to completely ignore it... and never acknowledge it. That is really, really frustrating to some of us! 

That's nice of you. But if you read my post, I never asked for anybody's help. That's a very important clue to look for (if you want to help someone). Maybe that can explain your frustration? It can be a good thing to to take on in life.

But if you want, I can clerify what my goal with the post was. I know that the ONLY people that are able to investgate and correct faults in the Helix is the staff at Line 6. But valuable clues are given to them by the amount of people reporting back to them. What you say, and what I say, doesn't mean anything in itself. I wanted to notice other users so they can have it in mind. If that gives more reports to Line 6 about this problem, or things that are similar, then Line 6 have a clue to follow. That is one one of the good things about a forum. It is also a good thing to have a forum to ask ""what do I do now?" But as I said, then I will ask for it.

The loudest speaking people in this forum gives me the impression that this is a "fan-club" more than an technical forum. In a fan-club you should expect to be ridiculed when having diverting thoughts. In a technical forum like this, divirting thoughts should be welcome. If those voices are silenced, then it will be a loss. But when I see Line 6 staff joining in on the spitting in this post, it gives me concerns. (That makes me think of my second part of my post, where I talk about Line 6' handeling of my report. It could be something like "Thank you! Yes, we confirm. We'll take it with us. Good bye!)  But in this case (in this forum), as I've said, it was actually a benefit. But in the long run, I think not. But obviously I overrated this platform. But I believe a lot of nice and interested people read my post. What they think and do about it doesn't concern me at all. I just gave voice to my experience.

6 hours ago, phil_m said:

Line 6 cares about your mental health. :-D

6 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

My big toe hurts...I must have a brain tumor.

6 hours ago, rd2rk said:

My shrink tells me I worry too much. I'm pretty sure my shrink is a Dalek...... 

6 hours ago, codamedia said:

There are a lot of posts here I would like to "react" to, but the forum tells me I am "out of reactions" for the day. 

That's censorship! Unacceptable! Why would Line 6 do this to me? Anyone want to buy a Helix? 

32 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

I'm trying not to be harsh, but this thread seems to be about 25 responses longer than it needs to be.  

No, you are absolutely right :-) I think it is we have several subjects going. For me it's so simple that I'm not able to think of a patch in a software like a component in an amp. I worry that this and other weird bug reports (and there are quite a few) points to a deeper problems. To sudenly discover that you play with a thin, ugly tone, is one thing. I also worry that that it will freeze, or other things I have read about.

36 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I think what others are saying here is that the firmware is pretty much stable to this degree already. Yes, there's always a chance that something will pop up, and I'm sure Line 6 wants to get to the bottom of it. Sometimes there are some pesky bugs that don't want to be caught..

 

 Just to be clear, is it only in this one preset where you've experienced this issue, or is in it multiple presets?

Yes, as I've said, I also believe the majority of users have no problem. But the problem is that when I meet a weird bug first hand, that for me points to a deeper problem, together with reports from others encountering weird behaviour (that didn't worry me before), then I back off for now. I'm fine with that. Probably like winning in the lottery if my Litigator patch (same structure) broke down during a show. But I don't play the lottery when I play the guitar for others. And that is how I feel when I encounter strange softwarebehaviour (in the Helix Floor). I would rather play on a smoking amp :-) Yes, for now (no prediction, just how I feel) I've only seen it in one patch (re-built several times, also by Line 6).

18 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Then I guess you don't use your PC or MAC or ANDROID or iPHONE, or "insert computerized device here" either? If you are using any of those then you do know how to work around things that "might happen" at any given moment :) 

I'm not dependent on on my computer or my phone. On stage I am 100 % dependent on whatever I play. The people hiring us or me are, my fellow musicians are, and the audience is. Anyone experiencing a breakdown of equipment during a show, like I have, know what I'm talking about. You avoid it by all means. Then I do not play on a unit I need to "button massage" and pray for. That's why I hope Line 6 puts a huge effort in getting the software stable, to a DEGREE where I (and probably others) can trust it like a standard amp and stomp boxes.

49 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

I can see what Line 6 support has given up on you! The goal posts have once again moved in this thread.

 

It started with 3 hours, it was altered to "30 minutes - 3 hours" and now it's 30 seconds? I am beginning to find this very unbelievable. Please post the configuration (effects on/off & snapshot settings) that can make this happen in 30 seconds? That would be a lot easier to troubleshoot than the 3 hours manifestation I have ALWAYS seen with your preset. 

 

 

There is an easy solution/workaround to your problem that I KNOW would work 100% based on all the tests/time I have spent with your preset over the past 3 days. 

Save your preset into a 2nd location (or more) and seamlessly switch between them every couple of songs. 

 

The problem is... I'm beginning to think you don't want a solution. 

Yes, you are right. I edited the text to clerify. Several people read "within three hours" as "three hours". The text was obviously not clear enough, so then it is a good thing to correct it. It's called intelligent communication. And I'm sure most people in Line 6 are happy with that :-)

Yes of course I would like a solution. But only Line 6 can offer me that. My problem is not that the patch is not working. My problem is that I own software that obviously have issues. I can't live with that, because then I know that something MIGHT happen. If other people see it as irrelevant, then I'm perfectly ok with that. I report what I find, and then it is up to others to conclude, just like you have done.

2 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

 

Yup. And any one of us could get hit by a bus tomorrow, too. We'd better all stay home...

I guess I'll go with my old Budda and take my chance... ;-)

35 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

no piece of gear is flawless, nor is bug free.  I had the original AXE FX Ultra when it came out and as greatly revered as that piece of gear was when it was released and the years after, it had its flaws as well.  There were limitations that I ran into, a few things that didnt work as 'I' thought they should, but it never wavered my ability to use it, and if it did there were simple work arounds that I had to incorporate.  

 

That seems prevalent in a lot of life scenarios in general.  I get where your coming from...in the subject of product confidence.  However, this seems to be a highly focused scenario, that has had several options offered as solutions/workarounds....including somewhat of an acknowledgement from L6 regarding your experience.  Its a minor (very) inconveninence to have to swap presets 1>2>1 or whatever pattern you would choose and literally done in under a second. 

Yes, you're right. Nothing is bulletproof. Most likely, your workaround would do that I never encountered the problem ever again. I've also made a patch with the Litigator (same structure). Never seen the problem there. But I think (read worry) "yet", because I have no clue what's causing the problem. A valve can also break, of course. I've experienced it once. But non the less, I don't worry about that. For some reason, strange things going on in software makes me more uncomfortable. And I guess it all boils down to who we are - what feels like a risk for me, will not be the same for you.

31 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

You're still ignoring the fact that the Helix Hardware is not necessarily the same as the software. You claim knowledge of other users' first hand experience, yet in this very thread users have reported things that fail in HX Edit,

I will clerify. What I meant was that my first hand experience, together with other first hand experieces (other strange bugs), have given ME doubts about using the unit in critical situations.

37 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

I'm not angry. Being angry about someone else's paranoid delusions is a waste of time.

Ok. I was just trying to reassure myself that everything was fine. Thats good :-)

3 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

Are the songs your playing longer than the minimum time that this issue shows up?  If its shown up as early as 30 minutes, do you play 30+ minute jams (Freebird anyone?)

 

If not, why can't you simply duplicate the preset into a 2nd (or even 3rd) preset (simply copy and paste) and then when your song is done or even during the song when it wont be as audibly noticeable, switch to the duplicate preset.  If it is a form of memory leak like suggested...or some other issue, that would reset whatever timing is causing the breakdown.  

 

I agree this is like not driving your car cause the blinker doesn't work.  Whatever the desired end result is/was of this thread/issue seems to have been lost....as there are multiple ways suggested it seems to work around the issue, until it is acknowledged/solved as a bug.  

Thank you for your reply. No, the longest song is around 6 minutes, give or take, depending on our mood :-) In some projekt-playing it can be longer, but then I'm usually not continously playing. And I would not worry on a jam :-) Yes, I've thought about this as well. But when doubt have crept in, I find it hard to trust. I think the problem can show up still, or in another form. I've decided to use it for practice, untill I get some reassurance that (whatever it is) is gone.

37 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

I've kind of monitored this from the sidelines and I have to say it's been rather amusing...

From what I can tell, this bug may very well be some sort of memory leak that if left alone over a long period of time (looks like around 3 hours) may eventually break down the integrity of the signal chain in some way, but I still go back to what I first said.  If it is a memory leak, the quick fix for it is to simply unload the preset then load it back as that would rebuild all memory being used by the preset.

But what's absolutely amusing to me is using this bug for the excuse not to use it live.  That's kind of like saying if my turn signal breaks in my car I won't drive it.  Three hours is a very long time in term of stage performance.  Heck, I'm changing presets about every 4 or 5 minutes during a show.  I've had some long shows over the last 50 years of playing, but none that was three hours long with no break or no changes in presets.  Of course if the workaround for the bug is to simply reload the preset, that takes about 2 seconds at best.  I'm pretty sure in three hours one could find time to do such a thing.  In fact, a typical break or intermission in a show is more than enough time to reboot the whole unit multiple times.

All that aside, I'm not sure what the OP is looking for here.  Let's assume Line 6 tells him that yes it's a bug.  Does he think Line 6 will interrupt the development cycle and create a special release for him to put out a fix for it?  If it is recognized as a bug (which it probably has been), it will be added to the items that need to be fixed in the next formal release as it would for any other company in the world.  That's a potentially long time to have a piece of expensive gear sitting around doing nothing.

Quite frankly, I don't know what the OP's real problem is, but I think it's safe to say it certainly isn't this "bug" that's keeping him from playing......

Well, I can tell you. No, I allways play on ONE preset. I don't need anymore. What scares me off is that the volume loss is gradual. It takes time before you notice it. And it do sometimes happen after 30 minutes. And since it varies, I would not know when it happens. If it happens after 30 minutes, 3 hours, or anything in between, it can happen after 30 seconds. The rest of your post speaks for itself. It's easy to ridicule someone from behind a keyboard.

43 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

[...] which indicates to us that the problem is not Helix, but MAY be a problem with HX Edit.

 

Try it. It's the only thing you HAVEN'T tried. What have you got to lose?

 

BUT....if you're truly done wasting your valuable time on this defective platform from a heartless uncaring manufacturer, I'll be happy to open the bidding on your POS Helix.

$100! Do I hear $125?

The reason is my first hand experience, and what I read of other users first hand experience. When Line 6 was not able to do it, when I was not able to do it BOTH in HX Edit and Native, then I'm done. Let's say it worked. I would still know that something was wrong. When will it show up again, and what else can happen? I had NO concerns before it happened, just like you.

You imply something that is totally wrong. I've never said these things about Line 6. It's about having two thoughts in the head at the same time. I do believe that Line 6 is full of nice, competent and creative people. The way I was met, I believe, is not about that. For me it's just a sign on how business are run today - that both customers and serious craftsmen (loving their craft) are affected by. Efficiancy, image and gain. The people responsible for this is not the designers or the tech people at Line 6. It is the people in suits. I'm truly sorry if I made you angry.

10 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

I find that ludicrous... I'm sorry! As I stated earlier... thousands of these machines are used every day on stages and in studio's around the world.... that would not be the case if they were as unstable as you seem to think they are. 

 

YOUR PROBLEM rears it's head over a long period of time.... up to three hours. The solution is to reload the patch that takes 1 second at most. If you can't work around that, then I suspect you will not get along with any piece of computerized gear...

 

 

Using those presets from scratch it is running 100% in my Helix native without an issue - about 6 hours and counting now. The patch you shared failed after 3 hours consistently.

 

 

By all means. I just share this. It gives me concern. I'm not asking you or anybody else to have concern. I just reported what I found, and how Line 6 chose to meet me on this. Then it is up to each and one of us to make up our minds. But of course, if you meet a problem first hand (like me and others) we will probably carry a greater concern than the ones that didn't. That's just how things are. My experence tells me not to use it on stage untill reports of odd things decline. If they don't I will do an informed sale of the unit. I'm just fine with that. 

1 hour ago, themetallikid said:

 

If the OP did use HX edit, 'this' could be the culprit.  Inviting something damaging to the preset somewhere inside the 1's and 0's.  I have just recently had an issue where hX edit would not copy/paste something for me, restarted the Helix, tried again...same result using HX Edit....restarted the Helix, did the same action on the Helix itself....worked fine.   Even with fresh installs of HX Edit

38 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

 

??????????

 

Sounds like you're confusing hardware and software.

As others have asked, have you tried building the preset from scratch ON THE HELIX ITSELF? 

WITHOUT HXEDIT, thus eliminating the possibility of this being a problem with HXEDIT and/or your computer?

How nice of you to correct me on the syntax, rd2rk. Though i guess the majority was able to figure out what I meant. It's now corrected :-)

The first patch was edited in HX Edit.

The second patch was (again) edited from ground up on HX Edit. That was the patch I sent to Line 6. So I guess that Line 6 have the expertice to spot an error in the file structure. I heard nothing about that. They confirmed the volume loss.

The third patch was rebuilt by Line 6 (I don't know how) and sent it to me. Line 6 said the problem was gone. I tweaked it (including the different split from 1a to 1b - look abowe) and the volume loss was still there. I told Line 6 about this (still volume loss on Helix Floor), and offered them these jpg-files, but they did not want them. They adviced me instead to service my Helix Floor.

The fourth patch was built from ground up in Helix Native, and tweaked to the same settings based on the jpg-files in this post. The problem is still present.

And when I say I stop here, I mean that I have offered Line 6 more than enough to look into this. Whatever I find will just give me assumptions. The only persons able to deal with this is the engineers at Line 6. But of course I share what I'm able to with you good fokes here. And I do believe efforts by the community can give them good clues (if they want it).

6 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

I had some down hours with my gear... and although I consider this minor, I do think it's a bug. Some day this bug might effect me and others! Therefore I try to lend a hand in helping to isolate the problem. That's how this community works and I am very sorry to hear that you want to give up! 

 

Let me keep trying! 

 

How were your editing your preset that Line 6 sent you? 

• On the unit
• In Helix Native
• Through HX Edit

IME: Whenever I encounter odd behavior with presets/snaps/settings it is when I edit with HX Edit. However, I am well aware that HX Edit is nothing more than an interface for the unit, and it is dependent on a solid USB connection and subject to communications errors. Whenever I do my editing in Native... or on the unit itself - I have never had an issue. 

Really a good thing that you look into this. Maybe Line 6 want to look into your findings, and then it will be a good thing.

I allways do my main edits on HX Edit. Small tweaks are usually done on Helix Floor itself. The patch in Native was edited there, of course.

When I talk about stability, of course I know I'm not an expert. But I base my statement on the reports (many of them) on different odd behaviour on both Helix Floor, Helix LT and Stomp in version 2.82. Yes, if it was a Windows program, then yes, I would agree because of all the different hardware structures. But it is not. Unless I'm corrected on this, it happens on the exact same hardware (if we isolate it to the Helix Floor). If you can't tweak the settings in this program, without having problems, the platform can't be stable. But it is not terrible unstable, because then more musicians would have problems. My guess is that the vast majority have no problems. But my concern is that the same majority can have problems in a given (and unlucky) situation. That's why I will keep it off stage, even when not using this patch.

1 hour ago, phil_m said:

 

I don’t think Line 6 would say any bug is “not a problem”. I think it’s a matter of doing triage-type assessments as to which things are the most important and where they should focus. Sometimes it seems users uncover deep bugs that are hard to replicate, and I think those are always the most frustrating things for development teams. So the best thing to do is simply what you’re doing - try to give the service guys as much information as possible so they can pass it to the developers. Hopefully they’ll be able to get to the bottom of it.

Yes, I agree with you. That's why they shoult treat the users that takes initiativ in a good way. They confirmed the bug in the beginning. That shuld be the end of the story. Thank you - we'll deal with it! Not make it into a three months story where i eventually are adviced to service my unit. And again, that has nothing to do with desent workers. Thats "image" and "strategy" (NOTHING WRONG HERE!). (Not having a stable version by 2.82 - third try - is bad for the image. Much better then to low-pay someone to "help you" to fix the unfixable.) And I truly hope Line 6 fix it, hopefully also their strategies :-). It's an extraordinary piece of gear, made by highly creative and competent people.

5 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

I understand your frustration, and you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. My opinion of the above statement is that it's bull***t from someone who hasn't got a clue and really should just list his Helix on Craigslist and move on. We've tried to help you, as I'm SURE (based on my experience of L6 support) the support techs did. Now you're just being rude.

I appreciate everything I've got in this forum. To be fooled to communicate with a tech center for three months is a thing to mention. And I know it's not the tech peoples fault. And I'm 100 % sure that the bosses in Yamaha/Line 6 are not offended at all :-) Sorry if I offended you.

5 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

My next test.

I run a mega serial path for my live presets which utilize Path A in a similar way your preset was setup... except mine has even more added. I just loaded that up in Native to see if this problem happens with my preset. It will take several hours before I know. 

 

I will not invest more of my time in this, but it will for sure be interesting to read about your findings. Thanks for sharing!

34 minutes ago, colek98 said:

 

All this tech is the cutting edge. Every tech on the Line 6 help desk can't be intimately familiar w every line of code from every product they've ever supported.

 

If I ever have said anything that make people think that i accuse the service person(s), I'm truly sorry! I know the show: Money! The tech people even confirmed the bug in the beginning. "Economists" deside to bull***t me (and others not worthy to "bribe"), and intructs (hard working and desent people in the service centre) to run a "show" that gives them the best possible image, and the most amount of money to the owners. It's as simple as that :-) Sadly enough, that's the way it goes all over the line.

22 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Do the troubleshooting required to pin down the specific cause of the problem. This is a complex preset with hundreds of possible parameter interactions. I doubt that anyone is going to have the time/energy to troubleshoot it for you.

 

No, that would be to much to ask, but I really appreciate your interest. Even though Line 6 say it's not a problem, I truly hope THEY (Line 6) have the knowledge and the resources to fix this bug (because I find it hard to believe that they see no problem in this - even though they say so). But of course, it is allways (in these times) the economists that runs the show. If it is an undetected flaw in the software structure, anything can happen. Now, or during later software updates. But if the economists find that the "crossover" (maximum economic gain) is below a stable platform, I guess we're all stuck with that. One see this happen in most cases when entusiast companies are taken over by "the big ones". 

:-) I did not read your second post... :-)

I also had some problem with naming when updating to version 2.80, I remember. But not as bad as you are talking about. I can't remember how I got rid of it, but I know I did some factory resets etc. I think the best place to start is there. I send you a link to Helix Help. Here you will get information on how to do it.

https://helixhelp.netlify.com/

https://helixhelp.netlify.com/manuals/helix/reset-options.html