zolko60

1 hour ago, hurghanico said:

If Line6 thought that guitarists would have a hard time understanding the possibility of clipping the input ( if it were that easy ) of the device why do they mention "clipping" in the manual at page 42 about the functioning of the clip indicators found at the input and output of the available paths?

Because (from the same page) "The meter measures output level". Green = Good, Red = No Good.
You can check if your signal is clipped by monitoring direct input with your DAW (USB7 input). You can even demonstrate it to anybody else.
Or guess what, you can use built in meter after a volume block and check what +dB value gives you Red = No Good. 

1 hour ago, hurghanico said:

Bye bye

Bye bye. Take care.

2 hours ago, hurghanico said:

IIRC the HX input has a claimed headroom of 123dB so I really don't think it could ever clip with a +13dBu sine signal

I am sorry but the dynamic range is not even remotely related to the maximal amplitude A/D converter can accept with no clipping.

If your A/D converter has 123dB dynamic range and you keep 10dB of headroom your dynamic is 113dB. If you switch 6dB pad on your dynamic range is 107dB.

2 hours ago, hurghanico said:

As you can see there is no reference to the possibility of input clipping.

Because it obvious. The Helix manuał is for guitarist with no basic understanding how electricity works. It does not contain any technical information nor specs and sometimes is misleading. 

19 hours ago, hurghanico said:

Maybe I am wrong but I am more inclined to believe that the PAD switch works after the A/D converters in both HD and HX.

I believe that the devices input can handle fairly strong signals without clipping by itself, rather it is the models that probably are best calibrated for input signals that do not exceed a certain threshold.

I don't believe neither one, but I can make an experiment of inputing +13dBu sine signal and check if it clips. 

I believe the input pad purpose is simple - to attenuate signal before A/D conversion. 

I am almost sure now why Helix users like attenuation. The first time I compared Helix OCD with my analog OCD it turned out gain control "pot taper" is different and I have go below 1 value to get 10 o'clock OCD position. I had very same experience with Vox AC30. 

So the attenuation just helps to set proper gain in the "clean" range. 

13 minutes ago, rosskoss said:

Seriously, is this so hard to understand? 

Not at all. This is why I asked about a clarification. While I believe instrument level (+11dBu=0dBFS) is properly chosen by Line 6 developers and supposedly used for device modeling I also noticed that preamp and amp models overdrive sooner then their analog counterparts. In case of preamp models it is hard to keep any clean headroom with at least unity gain.
Still "input pad superiority" is mentioned quite often, so I wanted to evaluate what is the orgin of that conviction and possible method to test it.
Peace brothers and sisters.
Amen and Awoman!

22 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

This entire thread is an excellent example.

No it isn't. There is a claim that need to be backed up by an evidence.

22 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

The OP tried a setting he hadn't used before, he liked the results, and choose to share that opinion.

I am not really sure if he compared the "pad on wow" with other options.

22 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

You waltzed in and told him he was wrong, demanding that he prove otherwise. It's insulting.

No I didn't. I asked if we can think of a replicable by anybody else method to test his claim. I don't see anything insulting there.

22 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Neither of us will ever change our minds

Why? If there is any evidence maybe this is a time to change mind. I do not have any opinion about superiority of one method of attenuating signal over another.

22 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Yet you continue to dump on the OP, demanding "proof" that his personal preference for one setting over another is demonstrably/quantifiably "better"

No. What I feel is you are dumping me, not me dumping the OP but I can be wrong.
I would gladly make an experiment myself, but I am away from my hardware Helix and I hear no benefit of attenuating guitar signal before A/D converter by any means with Helix Native and my audio interface.
This is why I ask if we can can settle the experiment conditions tossing out the two methods which are hardly comparable because of lack of dB attenuation value.
If somebody could upload two direct tracks, one with pad on and second with no pad, digitally attenuated after to the same level (to make it blind testable) I and anybody else on this forum could test it with any modeller and post one's opinion. What is wrong with that approach?

3 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

No you don't. You want to pontificate, criticize, and condescend...and if history is anything to go by, you'll do so no matter what anyone offers up.

 

Can you give any example to back up your claim or you just feel I am evil? 
What is so wrong in demonstrating the input pad is superior to post A/D attenuation if this is demonstrable?
If it's not, what is the point of talking about it? Any opinion is valid then, isn't it?

5 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Be sure you understand what people is talking about before posting more tech bubbles.

About magic feelings that can not be demonstrated?

On 1/8/2021 at 11:33 AM, PierM said:

This is why you have a volume/tone circuit on your guitars. :)

They are not transparent in case of passive pickups, they load them and overal input impedance is higher.
Neither a pad before AD converter is with a respect to S/N ratio. It is worse by attenuation amount. But maybe it is worh it if somebody can actually demonstrate is sounds better.
It shouldn't be hard to do.

On 1/8/2021 at 5:43 AM, bypassvalve said:

hahahahaha

hahahaha

If you tell me your Helix sounds better when you play under a ultraviolet lamp but it works only on Sundays at your church if I believe in Jesus walkin on the water, it is hardly falsifable for me. :)

On 1/8/2021 at 3:06 PM, phil_m said:

They mentioned it on a thread on Facebook.

I must have missed that.

On 1/8/2021 at 5:46 AM, bypassvalve said:

makes a big difference in how the modeled gear reacts to the right input signal level.

Right. So how to show and let feel it to other people that getting that attenuation before AD converter is better than attenuation after AD or is better than setting a gain lower?

On 1/8/2021 at 12:22 PM, cruisinon2 said:

That guy chimes in once in a blue moon, whenever he feels the need to demonstrate that he's the smartest guy in the room.

I am not. I want to feel what you feel. Please teach me.

On 1/8/2021 at 12:22 PM, cruisinon2 said:

In his black and white universe everything is reduced to a series of "right" and "wrong" absolutes, which he obsessively quantifies

I have given four colours of attenuation to consider and test. Neither is black or wite nor right or wrong.

On 1/8/2021 at 12:22 PM, cruisinon2 said:

in a futile attempt to "disprove" the subjective opinions of others. By now I'm sure you can guess who's always "right"

Again. I really want to feel and test it or at least to hear somebody else demonstration.

On 1/8/2021 at 12:22 PM, cruisinon2 said:

Ignore him.

Why?

OK. Your claim is falsifiable at least at "feel" level. You are right - there is no dB scale on dirtboxes and amp gain so full comparision would be tuff. For further investigation let's reduce it to the two states numbered 1 and 2.
What is your proposed experiment and how to prepare blind tests? Is the pad 5 or 6dB and how can we determine that? A generator and a DAW meter?
Or maybe you have your clips ready and  you want to attach them to forum readers to choose which sounds better?
 

OK. So how do you compare those four states: 
1. "Input pad on"
2. "6dB volume down" after AD converter
3. "Lower dirt box gain or volume" before preamp/amp block  
4. "Lower amp gain"  (when no dirtboxes are used)
to claim the first is superior?

The difference between what?

12 hours ago, Ed_Saxman said:

Luckily, the guys at Line 6 are actively working on all this

How do you know what guys at Line 6 are working on? Any leakage on The Gear Page?

You can also use 48kHz only Class Compliant mode to keep the latency at a playable level or use your audio interface direct monitoring.

Yes, aggretating devices but the Round Trip Latency would be the higher of the aggregated interfaces. Quite high in case of the multi sample rate driver.

3 minutes ago, loonsailor said:

I only knew what to do with sag, bias, ...

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-users-dont-forget-to-use-the-bias-and-sag-settings.2003381/

21 minutes ago, hurghanico said:

Taken from an old post on TGP by the amp models designer Ben Adrian

Those guys at Line 6 have so deep knowledge to be found all over the net but L6 manuals, knowledge base, FAQ, specs, charts! ;)

Nobody (except Ben Adrian and a few guys at L6) knows how Hx tone stacks are modeled. Real AC30 hever had any tone stack on the "normal" channel, nor presence on the power amp.

6 minutes ago, axeel_b said:

After all, if we take ASIO and audio streaming out of the picture (ASIO and audio streaming are NOT an issue...), what remains should rely on low transfer rates: memory dump and preset editing should be an "easy" task for USB 2.0 also at low speed. Doesn't this sound strange to you? 

Not at all, because my case was different. You have some trace of evidence based on your case but the data is at Line 6 Customer Support. They recommend you to get a cable which works properly with your host and they probably know you will instead of sending them several replacement cables back.

18 hours ago, axeel_b said:

But despite to my considerations and testing it's sadly true: you need to find the perfect USB cable.

I have contacted Line 6 about my issue with the original USB cable (audio was crackling and Hx Edit disconecting after 2min.). They responded with some gauge considerations. What I understood the perfect USB cable is that working with Helix and an attached USB host.
They would replace it with whatever they have in stock anyway, so I gave up.

"This depends on the used setup (USB port, chipsets etc)
sometimes different diameters work better on some systems, but there's no general rule :
USB cable diameters are (hidden in the code printed on your cable)
AWG 24: 0.511 mm
AWG 28: 0.321 mm

if it works better with another cable, we recommend using that one

Best regards,
Technical Support
Line 6 Support Europe"

Where was it documented? Is there any avialiable documentation what MIDI commands Helix is supposed to transmit, receive and filter?

37 minutes ago, Karpowicz said:

1/4 triplet, 1/8 triplet, 1/16 triplet, 1/32 triplet and  1/64 triplet

they all sound the same here!

Or maybe you did not change the time base from ms to bpm?

I have just checked Hx Native. I can not replicate your issue.
If you double check (differents modes and tempo) and somebody confirms please report it as a bug.

1. If the amp is modelled right, so it's presence have to be modelled right. The comparision has to be made with respect to real amps, not to amp recordings.
2. No amp comes with a presence dialed in. Maybe model default settings.
3. No decent commercial IR should be made on any tube amp with non flat frequency response or presence dialed in.
4. The presence in case of tube amps is usually EQ in a power amp feedback loop, some amps have no presence, presence eq works different in different amps.

So, simply no.