On 1/22/2021 at 3:42 PM, datacommando said:

As mentioned by “cruisinon2” in the post above, Strymon reverb units use the equivalent of one of the 2 available DSP chips in the Helix floor model. That single chip is dedicated to reverb only. Considering the clamour around Line 6 HX Product users wanting Poly this that and the other, when it arrived many were surprised at the amount of processing power swallowed up by those Poly FX. 

 

Be carefully what you wish for, and as I have said many, many times - one of the reasons that Helix has Send/Return FX loops is so you can add your favourite effects boxes externally without guzzling DSP.

Obviously this won’t help or make sense to you.

 

Sure. The thing is - main topic here was mono vs stereo. I never said Helix reverbs suck. They just sounds better in stereo, when some other reverbs can sound really good even in mono. Knowing that, developers can update reverb's logic, so they can sum up to mono better. Also, switchable smoothing for tails would be good addition. So everybody can use what they can afford DSP-wise. Anyways, that thread was just to tell something, not to get any answers. On this forum everybody seems to be loving what they have no matter what, and that's fine.

Hello. Everyone knows there are complaints about Helix reverbs. Well, many of us tried comparing them to other modeler's versions, or standalone pedals (like Strymon). As a result, Helix reverbs were not so bad in comparison, sometimes even good and better. But.. it all happens in stereo mode, when they are nice and wide. Worst things happens when you set your Helix reverb to mono, it instantly sounds "bad" (not that bad as "awful", just nos as good as others). It never happens with Strymon, they are equally good in both modes. Also, standalone reverbs have smoothed tails, when in Helix reverbs you can hear particular delay dots in reverb tails, if you are lucky enough.

That's just food for thought for now, i'll prepare more information with comparisons and facts after 3.1 (if reverbs will not be improved by that time). Hopefully that will help our dear developers.

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Selecting-Preset-s-Snapshot/1006768-23508?submitted=1
 

Selecting Preset's Snapshot

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Block-Linking/1006766-23508?submitted=1
 

Block Linking

30 minutes ago, datacommando said:

Well, that maybe because you arrived with a post about “our lovely Helix products” that is actually a 5 paragraph critique of what is missing from something that both “cruisinon2” and I have been using for the last five years. It appears that we both have simply pointed out things that we didn’t agree with, which was most of your ideas. What did you expect to happen? This is not Line 6 fan boy nonsense, we use this stuff on a daily basis and are aware of the good points of the Helix and it’s short comings.

 

Using Helix as a recording tool allows me to capture decent guitar tone at a good level without the fuss of isolation and microphones. All that other stuff like tape saturation and esoteric reverbs, and even vinyl crackle and pop can be added then, if I wanted them. People using Helix products in a live context will have a different set of things that they like. So if they want to patch in a third party item such as Ditto x4 looper, a Strymon Big Sky, or an  Eventide H9 they simply plug it into the FX Loop. That’s the way it is. 
 

As you have already said: “There are some things that work in a particular way and you can't change it.”

 

I wish you well in your search for the audio nirvana you seek - try hooking up a Helix to Logic and some plug-ins.

 

 

If other companies had somebody like you, they would end up not modeling this stuff, because of listed above. However, they made it - all kinds of stuff. And a preset-pack with all studio gear baked-in for famous modeller sells out very well. There are no people complaining about having all this. Well, everyone have their a-ha moment in different time and place. Peace, I wont bore you more with this

7 minutes ago, lou-kash said:

 

I don't see the point.

If you need these pseudo-analog effects to enhance your recordings, add them in your DAW as plugins when mixing. There's a plethora of options available, from absolutely free up to insanely overpriced.

Good point. Why then they made other studio effects, when we had not-studio versions of effects?

Also, we could not only use saturation and reverb plugins from DAW. There are many options for amp-sims and long IR loaders. Some decent modulation and eventide pitch effects. Just get a controller and get rid of Helix. Right? We all want more amps, pedals, other options. Line 6 did many things from Ideascale, which was there because of people who wanted more. Why is it any different? Other Hi-End modellers have saturation and extended wide reverb options in one or another form. Maybe they don't know something, like myself, trying to get that thing in Helix. Well, at least we will get some 1947 reissue tube amp model or another fuzz pedal.

3 minutes ago, datacommando said:

i'm going to take a similar view as "cruisinon2" here.

Would be nice if you are more friendly to newcomers. Well, 

4 minutes ago, datacommando said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what you're essentially asking for, is what many Helix users will already have - a computer with a DAW of one flavour or another from GarageBand through ProTools etc.

Basically, yes. That's why we have studio pre, studio comp, parametric eq, global eq and so on - why even bother adding these, if we already have straight-guitar blocks, not studio ones?
Helix Floor, Rack, LT are positioned as "all in one" package for live and studio. There are some things that's missing for that. That's one of the reasons why we have other Hi-End guitar modelers with the tools i'm talking.

7 minutes ago, datacommando said:

When you mention people putting Tube Mic Pre, Minotaur between amps and cabs, and optical trems at the end of signal chains. Well I guess they do that because, in the digital domain, they can do that without blowing up anything important. It's called experimentation.

In some degree. That's experimentation in search of something better, something that's missing. People always wants more amps and cabs, even when Helix have tons more than enough to please everyone. They just need to hear it in fair conditions compared to tones they grew up and learned to play the guitar

10 minutes ago, datacommando said:

Then this: "We can grab same exact guitar, use same exact cables, amps, cab, mic (all in Helix), playing style, but we never get that sound without ambience that was recorded in that room and analogue gear used to mix this song." Yes, and unless you are the guitarist that played it, then it will still sound like you

Even Frusciante itself won't sound like this with tools we have in Helix. He will be close enough, but not too much. There are some things that works in particular way and you can't change it. 

12 minutes ago, datacommando said:

What missing is the "Incredible Talent Button"

Basically, no. We don't need talent button, we just could use some help from things we already use in studio and sometimes even live mixing, especially when some of other only-studio things mentioned above are already there, so why not go deeper? At least for experimentation, not to say more

2 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Ambience, ambience, ambience...

 

Here's the dictionary definition of that word: a feeling or mood associated with a particular place, person, or thing; atmosphere.

 

Search forever if you like, but there is no objective truth to be found here. Everything you've lamented as missing, broken, or otherwise deficient is nothing more than your own personal assessment, and therefore 100% subjective by definition...which makes it no more valid, quantifiable, or "right" than anyone else's opinion. In the end, no matter how eloquently you phrase things, or how florid your descriptions become, you're asking for the engineers to perform a miracle, and hand deliver your own personal definition of what "sounds good" to you. Feel free to wait indefinitely for that to happen, or just go ahead and use whatever gear you've already predetermined to be capable of doing exactly that.

Simple objective truth:
1. Helix doesn't have dedicated saturation block

2. You can't use EQ or Compression to do what saturation does
3. Some other Hi-End modelers have some form of saturation that are not pedals or amps, or at least gives you opportunity to control that in power-amp section

9 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Then use the reverb unit of your choice. That's what they're for.

Right. But you can't really use m-series reverbs for that purpose. They are too narrow and too obvious. They are not part of guitar sound, they are addition, audible tail. Record guitar part with that reverb and listen to any isolated guitar track from studio recording which have natural ambience. Natural ambience will always be there, even if we can't clearly hear it. M-series legacy reverbs can't do that

13 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Yet again, you're talking about subjective assessments of a particular sound. You either like something or you don't... but just because you prefer one thing over another, doesn't make one deficient, inferior, or something that needs to be "fixed".

Nope, actually. I'm talking about not having a chance to have real ambience sound with IR's, because only ambience sound in helix is in stock cab's, which is also not so apropriate for this - it is too narrow and too obvious.

15 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

And what exactly would this mystical feature actually do? What are we saturating and/or coloring, and with what are we doing it? 

When we record guitar on studio, it goes through various analogue gear, and sometimes records to tape. Tape saturates signal, just like every other parts of analogue gear (with less audible effect tho). If you want to know what saturation does in general, first google link:
"Various flavors of saturation generate harmonics and apply subtle forms of “soft-clipping” compression. This unique effect makes sounds fuller, punchy, and louder." It's not always exactly that. Saturation makes signal louder, while making it peaks quieter. Just like compression, but they work differently.
 

20 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

What on earth does this mean?

You have 7k posts on this forum. I guess, you have seen posts where people suggesting using Tube Mic Pre before (or even after) amp to make sound more alive and alaogue-like. Same with Minotaur pedal between amp and cab, or EP Boost, or Optical Tremolo in the end of chain. I've seen enough of this posts to know that people are searching for something that's not there.

23 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Such as?

Tube, tape, transistor etc. Tape saturation tipically adds odd order harmonics, tube saturation adds even order harmonics, transistor saturation brings odd order harmonics with hard-clipping for some degree

26 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Yes, live sound and studio mixing are different... but they are both skills that one acquires. You either know how to use your gear, or you don't.  Either way, it's not the gear's fault if you don't like the end result.

One may like the end result, however we simply can't reach some results. For example, guitar tones on Scar Tissue song. We can grab same exact guitar, use same exact cables, amps, cab, mic (all in Helix), playing style, but we never get that sound without ambience that was recorded in that room and analogue gear used to mix this song. Sometimes we can get close even when using totally differen amp, but we never reach it. I'm not into copying someone's tone, but if the tone in my head was that guitar in Scar Tissue, I simply couldn't reach it with Helix, regardless of my guitar playing and mixing skills. Even eq-based tone-match can't give us needed results.

6 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you're essentially asking for a subjective experience... nobody can deliver that to you via a firmware update.

 

And as far as recording is concerned, I don't care if you're using a modeler, or mic-ing real amps and cabinets. You may even have access to a multi-million dollar facility with the best gear on earth...but if you don't have the necessary skills to produce a full, rich sounding mix is, then none of that gear will help you. Those skills are developed over time through endless repetition, just like one's instrumental prowess is... and there's no magic algorithm or piece of gear that can do it for you. You've either got, or you don't.

Well, the main thing here is that we don't have enough instruments to make best polished sound. Sometimes it is not what you want, however, if you need this particular sound live, you can't have it. 
1. Impulse Responses in Helix are just too short to have anything similar to reverb, also we can't have them in stereo (maybe we can use two IRs in parallel and hardpan them, but it automatically makes them half shorter). Yep, we have stock cabs (which I believe are not that bad BTW), but everyone on this forum claims they are using IR's because they simply sounds better. Stock cabs have something similar to reverb I meant in my Ideascale submission (called Early Reflections). But they are lacking so much - and still not that wide. There are some examples of such a wide reverb - sometimes it's called Air, sometimes - Early Reflections (what a surprise).

2. We don't have dedicated saturation/coloration blocks. I mean, many people on this forum uses other blocks instead of ones i'm talking, but they are not supposed to do that, and they don't do the job properly. There are plenty of saturation types, each with it's own character. It doesn't matter if i can create great mixed guitar sound in my stuido - when i'm playing live, it's just me, and amp-IR block in Helix, maybe some EQ and Compression. They can't do what saturation do after cab. There are some examples of saturation in modeling gear, main example - profiling amp. People say it profiles amps better than other modelers, and there are reasons for that.

Thanks for your answer!

Hello. I was thinking about what is missing from our lovely Helix products - not another amp or pedal, but something bigger. Today I saw "photos" of 3d models with emulated "shot with a real camera" post production effect, and thought that it was a photo, not just some render. They fooled me! And another render without effect and any postproduction, which was clearly 3d model. That thought lead me to my guitar recording and mixing experience, and I thought about all multitracks and isolated guitar tracks I listened through years. Well, there is always something more, than just guitar, amp and a cab with possible FX between them.
 

Even on this forum you can find some recommendations about adding Minotaur pedal between amp and a cab, adding Optical Tremolo in the end of a chain, Tube Mic Pre early in chain. This things wasn't designed for what we want them to do, and they can't do the job as we would like. Most of the time they just make sound louder by few dB, which always sounds better to our ears.
 

So I came to the final idea of what we are missing: thats a real recording conditions with mixing-mastering stage. In Helix we can't get that smooth natural almost-not-there reverb, that cannot be clearly heard, it doesn't leave a trail, it's just there in our sound, that makes it big, wide, three-dimentional. Try recording in a simple space like Garage with stereo mics and properly mix this tone - you will get lovely and lively sound, not too sterile, yet not reverby. Remember, how we can't use IR's in Helix to get any reverb from it - so IR's are no helpers in this.

nother important detail about guitar tone - more analogue gear after microphones. it could be vinyl, tape recorders with analogue consoles, EQs, comps, and it getting mixed and mastered to get along with other band. We don't have it in our Helixes, and some of us feels it - and tries to replace it with Minotaur, Tube Mic Pre, Optical Tremolo.. They are just effects that supposed to do their job.

But we need dedicated effects to give style and character to our tones - invisible air reverb, vinyl and tape saturation, analogue gear coloration and compression. That's not an easy task, and we can't expect it in 3.1, but thats a great goal to achieve and beat other modelers as a bonus. So I created an idea in ideascale, you can vote for it if you think thats a good idea. Thanks!

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Helix-Recording-Style-Character-Units/1003874-23508