Nightsky1376

On 10/27/2019 at 6:02 PM, HonestOpinion said:

 

Good luck. If you persevere you will either be successful or be able to at least conclusively determine that digital modeling through an FRFR is just not for you. Many players here have gone through the same initial frustration you are experiencing. Strictly anecdotal but I remember being dubious myself about the tone when I first got my Helix until somewhere along the way I was playing a gig with an accomplished and longtime guitarist with a Mesa Boogie V and analog pedalboard rig with a great sound and to my shock and genuine surprise I was much happier with my tone than theirs. Not to speak of the range of tones and effects I was able to dial up quickly during the performance.

 

Switching from playing through a traditional guitar speaker to a FRFR has a steep learning curve, mostly centered around getting the EQ and output levels right. For the most part as has been pointed out so many times before many of us grew up listening to guitar through guitar cabs with speakers like Celestions that have a signature frequency response and very limited frequency range. Getting that sound out of an FRFR monitor or direct to the PA from your Helix is challenging. Some people get lucky right from jump and have just the right combination of presets, FRFR, cabling, guitar pickups, etc. to require minimal tweaking but they are probably in the minority.  For the rest of us it took some experimentation and trial and error with others' suggestions to find a great sound but rest assured, it is in there!

 

For more immediate gratification running your Helix or any digital modeler through a traditional guitar cab usually requires less initial EQ than an FRFR as the guitar speaker will take care of a lot of that for you. Even running through a guitar cab requires some adjustment though. All I can say is hang in there, it may seem like a pipe dream now but great sounds are to be found once you get familiar with your device.  The returns in flexibility, variety of tones and effects, authentic sounding amp/cab emulations, ease of transport, reliability and repeatability, no tubes to replace or bias and fewer points of failure, and a host of other benefits derived from modeling to an FRFR are worth the effort but don't come overnight for most folks.

Thanks HonestOpinion.. I will definitely keep tweaking. My goal is to use the Helix LT on my band gigs and the Helix Stomp HX on my solo gigs. I hope I can make this work. The small format of the Stomp is perfect for my solo gigs.

2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Seriously, post a small snipplet demonstrating your issue, post the DI guitar take as well and post the used preset.

Will do... But I think I need to do more experimenting first. I can see a lot of folks on this forum feel very stongly that I have not explored or do not understand the software, EQ, effects chains, mic choices etc. I can also feel that if I post an audio example folks will say I didn't do it correctly, I used the wrong pickups, should have used different mics... etc. I think my best bet is to lie low on the forum and do more tweaking. I will post an audio sample once I have a "scientific" provable senario... Thanks for your suggestions and for the reply!

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and ideas. You guys know much more about the Helix than me and most of you have not experienced the problem... I am new to this forum and hope to be a helpful contributor. I don't want to make enimies. I think I need to stop posting and start tweaking. Thanks! 

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

This is the only genuine "problem" you have at this point.

You are probably right. But, that is also the reason I posted, hoping someone else could help.

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

It's not supernatural, it's trial and error. Reading descriptions of IR files, or having 10 different people swear on a stack of Bibles that "IR X" is the "best", is as useless as listening to someone try to describe the Mona Lisa. You have to throw caution to the wind and try some.

Thanks... as I suspected. I was hoping for immediate gratification..

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Check out their sites, try a few of the free downloads they offer. Auditioning a bunch of them is the ONLY way to tell if you'll like them or not.

Thanks for the reply. I will be doing that.

47 minutes ago, BBD_123 said:

I guarantee a modern high quality FRFR can be tweaked to sound just as low fi as an archaic guitar speaker.

Ha ha ha! How ironic..

4 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

Exactly... Here is something you can try. It is all stuff you would do if you were trying to capture a guitar amp in the studio.

• Insert the AMP and cab blocks separately
• For the CAB block, choose the dual cab option. I always set both cabs the same because I am after the different mics, not different cabs.
• On one cab put a dynamic. and leave it 1 - 2" off the grill. For this my favorites are the 20, 421 and 409
• On the other cabinet place a ribbon or condenser (FWIW my fav is the 121), pull it back to at least 6" or even much further, then add some early reflections to capture a bit of room.
• Here is a gotcha! The Helix does not allow you to move the mic from the CENTER to the EDGE of the speaker.
  • You can simulate this by inserting the TILT EQ after the cab block. Leave it with default settings and just roll back the TILT. Don't be afraid to get aggressive. I find DARK 50 is very similar to moving the mic halfway toward the edge of the speaker. DARK 100 would be like moving it to the very edge or even beyond...
  • Insert a MONO version to blend the two cabs.... or a stereo version if you want to retain the "left/right" split of a dual cab
  • If you only want to process the dynamic mic with the title eq, then you need to insert two mono cabs and run a parallel split... placing the title EQ only on the path with the appropriate cab. 
• For an added studio touch... insert the LA Studio Comp near the end of the chain (after the amp/cabs). This is similar to adding an LA2A to the guitar in a studio.... pure magic!

 

Studio monitors, PA cabinets, Stage Monitors, In Ears, etc... etc... They are all FULL RANGE with HFD's. FRFR is just a marketing term... it's just a powered monitor with varying degrees of features. There are certainly low end models of everything that will sound terrible no matter what, but to suggest FRFR cabs (as a whole) can't handle overdrive and distortion makes no sense at all. 

That is true... yet I am not making up this sound I hear. I am using 2 headrush cabs with 8" drivers for the Helix rig. I montor through Yamaha HS8's in my home recording gear. I think I just need to keep expermenting. I will definitely try your ideas, especially on the mic positioning idea.. Thank you!

4 hours ago, codamedia said:

Exactly... Here is something you can try. It is all stuff you would do if you were trying to capture a guitar amp in the studio.

Thanks that is helpful. Most folks are just dissing my coments. I am new to this forum and do not wish to make enimies or create confusion. I want to be a welcome contributor. I think I need to stop posting and do more experimenting tweaking software. I was hoping someone had experienced the same thing and I would not have to recreate something.. You guys know much more about the Helix than I do. Thanks for your reply and suggestions! 

5 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

The real issue is the vast majority of guitar players have never heard their beloved rig with a microphone (often a '57) jammed into the cone of a speaker and "monitored" solely through a stage monitor. If they actually did this, they would realize that the Helix (and the Kemper, and the Fractal) actually catch every imperfection that really exists in those rigs... including squirrels and fizz. 

 

It's not an inherent problem with modelers, it's that many guitar players have never heard their guitar tone delivered through anything other than their cabinet. 

I ran a project / commercial studio for many years while working as musician and teaching. I have put many a SM57 on guitar cabs, snare drums, sometimes toms and in a pinch on other instruments as well. Sometimes a 57 sounded great and sometimes not so much... The difference was usually the talent of the musician and the quality of his (her) instrument. At any rate I do know what a 57 sounds like on a guitar cabinet and if I ever heard that high end fizzy sound with a 57 I would first try repositioning the mic. If that didn't work I would try a different mic. The point is... I can't seem to loose that fizzy sound with my Helix (OD and distortion) but I have only had it for a couple of weeks. My suspicion is that the FRFR cabinets (with high frequency drivers) will never handle OD and distortion well. I'm using the XLR outputs (stereo cabinets) and have the Helix set for line level. I'm just hoping I can make it work for me. Thanks!

6 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

There are literally thousands of third party IRs out there, so I don’t really think Line 6 is going to get more into that part of the business than they already are. You have two choices. Make use of the tools Line 6 gives you and craft your own cab/mic sounds or find some IR files you like. Really, once you find one or two IRs you like, you can get a ton of mileage out of those few files.

I will certainly take your advice.. I haven't had the unit very long and am not sure how I should go about finding the IR file that would best fix the problem I hear. That is why I posted. Hoefully someone that has experienced the same glassy, fizzy top end can make a suggestion. I know I can EQ, compress, try mics, cabnet combinations, switch effect order etc... and tweak until my ears are numb. I just can't seem to get rid of that high end fizz when using OD or distortion. Any suggestion on finding IR files to minimize the top end fizz would be appreciated! Thanks

5 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

How can you claim your experience and make statements like the above with a straight face?

I may have experience as a musician but as I said, I am no expert using the Helix LT. I was hoping to gain a little knowledge from folks that know the unit and software better than I.

I will try to post an audio example soon. 

5 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

See, @Nightsky1376, why don't you just post a snipplet of a tone you find offending, along with the Helix patch you were using? That would give us an idea of what you're talking about. I can only speak for myself, but so far I don't have the slightest clue. Ideally you'd post a DI guitar track along as well (it's extremely easy to record one simultaneously with the full Helix shebang) so people could try to find a solution. But without any audio examples, any complaints about audio quality (or lack thereof) are pretty much meaningless.

Thanks SaschaFranck... I will post an audio sample.

Thanks for the replies... Well... I am no expert but I am experienced. I have been playing professionally for over 20 years, have an undergrad degree in classical guitar performance and a graduate degree in jazz studies. I am jazz  ensemble director and music technology instructor at the university level. I am a 20 year member of the musicians union and play shows every week.

Yes I am particular about tone. I will continue to try some of the EQ bias settings you guys have kindly suggested. Maybe the Line 6 is just the wrong choice for me. I can still return it and most likely will.

I do hope Yamaha (Line 6) read these posts. They could design EQ curves and IR's for folks like me. 

All the best..

I agree with ddmilne. 

I hear the same problem. The problem is a fizzy glassy frequency response (sound) with all overdrive or distorted models using FRFR speakers. I have seen the same complaints many, many times. Google "Line 6 fizzy sound" if you want to see a few.

I have tried various EQ settings and various cab mic combinations but as of yet, have not found a solution.

I see the same problem posted regularly on the on the Kemper guitar forums site as well.

Personally I believe this may be an issue inherent to digital modlers in combination with the piezo or high frequency drivers in FRFR cabs. For my setup I will need to keep the FRFR (or PA type speakers) in my rig for vocals and acoustic guitar.

It does seem that Yamaha (Line 6) could develop IR's or EQ curves to prevent or and least minimize this.

Comments?