benifin

Yeah .... I wasnt exaggerating either about the POD 1.

I had the original POD 1  which I later updated with the  2.2  ROM Chip you could buy.

I cant remeber what it was called in the Original POD, but it had a "swell"  /  "auto swell"  and from memory it had 1 control and it work brilliantly / perfectly ... excalty as it "should".

Hopefully the L6 peeps with drag one out and just code that in to the Helix ... hint ... hint  :)

Ben

Hey L6

Are we going to have to wait for a FW update to fix the Vol knob issue  and  have an auto-swell that works  [ ie: like an auto swell ]  or is a hot-fix  maybe in the works ?

Honestly ..... kind of shocked  / surprised that FW 2.20 shipped with the Vol knob bug because that didnt exist pre-FW 2.20   and a pre-announced and anticipated  Auto-Swell that doest really work in any real useable way ... the auto-swell from my POD 1.0 worked / works perfectly so I assumed it would at least be that good ?!?!

Ben

It sounds exactly the same. Stop spreading misinformation.

Hey.  Curious about this as Im away from my gear for another week or so ..... but ..... quite a few different people here and at  other places have said that they  "hear"  /  "feel"  that  2.20 has made the tones a bit better / nicer / realer [insert your own description]  etc.... yet that seems to be not the case with yourself  (?)

I dont think anyone is saying that 2.20 is a sonic "game changer"  relative to the previous fw   ... as is often expressed by some users of another well know modeller .... but the broad consensus, at least from what I can see, is that it seems that some overall  sonic  "goodness" has occured  over and above just the improved presets ......

Be interested to hear what people think / "hear"

Ben

A quick audio demo

https://soundcloud.com/ben-ifin/pad-off-vs-pad-on-with-55db-gain-block

To illustrate my point this is a very bright Plexi dirty sound played with a Tele - just 1 x G  Chord   :)

The first batch of  4 x " G " chord strums are  Amp + Cab + Auto Z + Global Pad OFF - nothing else

The second batch of  4 x " G " chord strums are  Amp + Cab + Auto Z + Global Pad ON + 5.5 db Gain Block in the first Path - nothing else

All Amp and Cab settings are identical - no other processing of any kind.

The Problem ?

They sound identical  but they shouldnt  :(

If the Global Pad was in the  analog front-end of the Helix and therefore  pre-AD converters, the  second batch of 4 G chord clips should sound a LOT less gainy and a LOT less distorted  but they dont ?!?!?

Remember your real tube amps .... almost all of them have a Hi-Input and a Lo-Input .... and when you plugged in to each they sounded WAY differnet .,.... ironically ... most real-tube Hi / Lo  inputs have a roughly  ~4db <-> ~6db differnece too ..... if the Helix Pad were in the front-analog end ....whcih is where I think we all assume it would be, it too would be soudning equally differnet jsut like a real tube amp Hi / Lo differnece ... but it doesnt 

I know its a very basic not-too-scientific test, but the non-difference / identical nature of the gain and distoriton of the patch is identical .... which to me tells me that the Pad is not where it should be for it to work like a true front-end analaog guitar pad.

Can others advise / confirm .... and if Im wrong, please  correct me :)

Ben

Hey all

Been doing some basic testing via recording / playback  and from what I can tell. it seems that the "Guitar Pad"  may in-fact  not  be  pre-AD in the analog front-end ..... rather is  seems [sounds like]  it is in the  AD stage .... ?!

I did some quick tracking as follows:-

-> too a known  Plexi Patch

-> set Global Pad to  OFF

-> recorded it

-> then took the same patch and set the Global Pad to ON  and at the same time put a 5.5db Gain Block as the first in the chain  [the Pad seems to sit around a  ~5.5db cut]

-> recorded it

-> they sound identical / indistinguishable .... this should definelty not be the case as if the Pad were in the analog front end, it would gain-the-amp very differnelty and sound very differnet.

Can some others please test / confirm ???

Ben

Thanks very much guys :)

=> if its before the  AD  conversion  ie: in the Analog front-end ... thats great because thats how it  should  be  most natural / real

=> good to know my rudimentary measuring was pretty close too in terms of the pad db  itself :)

=> as you say, given [assuming]  its  a proper front-end analog-pad, inserting a  [digital]  first block  of  -6 db  or  +6db  aint going to work / sound quite right or do the same thing :(

Probably stating the bleeding obvious here but kind of a bit surprising that

( i )  the Pad isnt  at least  preset-to-preset variable-and-saveable  -or much more ideally-  "snapshot-able" within a given preset

and regardless of global-or-preset-or-snapshot

( ii )  that it at least cant be  set  in  db gradients  ie:-   0.0db ... -0.1db ... -0.2db ........ -5.8db ... -5.9db ... -6.0db

Then again, maybe it will be in  FW 2.20 ............ :)

Ben

This is weird --- see Post #6 below added on 25 March 2017

Hi all

Re: the " Guitar Pad "  Global Setting:-

1 => is this a front-end analog pad  [ which is therefore pre-AD conversion ]   -or-  or is it applied digitally post-front-end in the DA conversion ?

2 => by my rough measurements, it  seems to be  approx a   ~ 5db  -to-  ~ 6db   pad .....  is this roughly right ?

3 => assuming it is   [say]  a  6db pad ....... if I turn it off  [Globally] so there is no Global Pad ...... but if I then want to Guitar Pad some patchs ... is inserting a   -6 db Gain Cut as the first block in those patchs the same thing as the Global Pad  being ON ?

Thanks,

Ben

Hi all

All excellent points :)

In addition to this - and my apologies as I probably should have posted this here in this thread rather than in a new discussion - but please see here:-

http://line6.com/support/topic/26252-hi-lo-cab-and-ir-cuts-attached-audio-clip-proof-they-need-to-be-fixed/

The  exisitng  "non-standard slope"  of the current  FW 2.12  Hi / Lo Cut in the Cab / IR  Block is  i.m.h.o  a major contributor to a lot of these issues ... however  even a  db-octave-correct  [ 6db or 12db ]  slope will not address the  "amp in the room"  issue ... that is a cross-platform  [Helix/Axe/Kemper/AFire etc...]   FRFR-related issue

Ben

Hi all

See the clip below - I tried to Embed it but cant seem to see how to do it :( .....  - the clip is  structured as follows:-

-> 1st  Group of 8 very short chord clips is of a VERY BRIGHT AC30

-> 2nd Group of 8 very short chord clips is of  a VERY BRIGHT  Low Gain Litigator

-> 3rd Group of 8 very short chord clips is of  a VERY BRIGHT  Hi Gain Plexi

-> All 24 clips played with a Telecaster Bridge P/U

https://soundcloud.com/ben-ifin/stock-helix-hi-lo-cut-vs-6db-hi-lo-cut

Here's the important bit :)

-> the same  [ OH ]  IR was used for all 24 clips

-> in all 3  groups of  the 8 clips,  the   1st  /  3rd  /  5th  /  7th  clips are the Helix Stock  Lo / Hi Cut  set to  95hz / 4700hz  -whereas-  the  2nd /  4th  / 6th / 8th  clips the  Lo / Hi Cut was  pre-applied to the IR  in Audacity using its Hi / Lo Pass  Filter which has a setting for either a 6db per octave or a 12db per octave Lo / Hi Pass ..... I did it at  6db Cut per octave at  95hz / 4700hz  and then in the Helix, the  Lo / Hi Cuts were turned OFF

Why is this important  ?

If you play each group of 8 clips from start to finish you will hear

-> the Stock Helix Cuts have a much harsher / more nasally mid-range coming through [ also, the low end is not as tight ]

-> when you start dropping the Hi Cut lower to say, 4400hz or 4200hz in order to get rid of this  "nasally-mid-range"  you then start to lose the good-mid-range-body of the tone that you need

-> 6db per octave and 12db per octave Lo / Hi "filters"  / "cuts" / "slopes"   are the industry standard for speaker crossover design - its how your monitors, speakers etc.... are designed ... its what your hearing is used  .... its why the Axe XL has these "slopes" for its Lo / Hi cuts ... its why the Kemper Studio EQ has its Hi / Lo Cut pre-defined to a 6db per octave slope  etc.......

-> this  harshness / "nasally-mid-range"  Hi Cut problem can be worked around by placing an EQ block after the Cab and re-compensating to  (i) get rid of the  excess nasallyness and  re-introducing the mid-range body you lose from "over-cutting"   but  we shouldnt have to need to do this

I really / sincerley / genuinley hope this is  escalated up the line to be fixed :) ...becasue when you hear some people - here and on "other forums" -  bag / critize  the Helix saying its too harsh / to difficult to tame the hi-end  / nasty-mids / has  "squirrels"  in it   etc..... I can assure you [ and them ]  that  this is what is causing their  [real]  hearing concerns.

Lastly - please dont get me wrong - I have an Axe XL, Kemper and a Helix .... and the Helix is as good an anything - I love using it ...... but this is a very real issue / problem which is significant but can very easily be addressed  but  updating the Cab / IR  Lo / Hi Cuts to be selectable at either 6db per ocatve    12 db per oactve.

All the best,

Ben

FWIW ...... and Ive done a lot  [ too much :)  A/B'ing ]  the  Hi Cut  [and Lo Cut]  in the Helix Cab / IR  block need "fine tuning" ....... the slopes are  relatively-flat ..... in my Axe XL, you can chose between a  6db slope or a 12 db slope ....... %99.99  of the time  for  %99.99  of all IRs,  the 6 db slope is perfect.

Ive run  [looped]  the  Axe into the Helix and the Helix in to the Axe  and without exception, the same IR in the Helix needs a much "stronger"  /  "bigger"  hi / lo  cut ..... this is time consuming  and it means I have to run a Post-IR  EQ  to  re-compensate for the  "slopes" ...... this seems like it would be an easy fix .. ?  hopefully it is addressed in  2.20  or very soon thereafter.

My workaround   [ post IR /  post Cab block eq  ]  isnt hard or anything, but it should not be necessary ..... how hard could it be to introduce a 6db or 12 db slope   ? 

Ben

Ah, I'm just being snarky too. You're all good, amigo.  :)

 

2.20's feature complete and been in beta for about a week and a half now. We added one tiny extra feature as well, but it's nothing to write home about:

- Global Settings > MIDI/Tempo > MIDI PC Send/Receive has been split into two separate parameters—MIDI PC Receive and MIDI PC Send—and moved to Page 2. In addition, you may choose whether Helix sends or receives MIDI PC (program change) messages to/from MIDI, USB, both, or neither

 

I may have mentioned it elsewhere, but Ben and Sam are neck-deep on models for 2.30. No clue when it'll drop.

Wow ..... thanks  ^^^^^   ... great to know  :)  :)  :)

As an aside ..... I know I sound like a broken record about this ...... but if you have ever owned / played a DC30  original or clone - or a really great AC30 - and you love "that"  sound ...... do yourself a MASSIVE favor

- start a new blank Preset

- load up the stock Bluebell Cab and stock Silver Bell Cab and run them in a 50/50 split

- load up the Matchstick 1 or 2 ..... and set the Bias to  ~6.8  and the Bias X to around 2.2

- Put a "Minotaur"  in-front of the Amp with these settings  0.2 Gain / 5.3 Tone / 6.3 Level  [freaky because this is exactly what you would do with a "real" DC30]

- Tweak and EQ to your hearts content and you will get anything from pristine cleans  to  thick-chimey cleans to crunchy crunchs  to  hard-crunch ...

Regardless of platform / brand etc.... this my friends is as good as modelling gets.

Enjoy !  :)

Ben

Hoping I will like it and will be comparable.  Time will tell!  I'm so gelled with Fractal for so many years and have never liked Line 6 stuff in past.  Heard this is different and hoping it's like when Behringer and Midas teamed up! 

Hey.

Just few word of [hopeful] reassurace from someone who has run and Axe XL and a Kemper and CLR's for a while now ... and who recently also got a Helix ... not in order or importance, here goes.

-> read the manual  ... seriously ... read it

-> given you will be wanting to know how it compares to your Axe .... load up the same IR's in each and use the same IR settings for both and monitor through the same system for both ... when you do this, you will be astonsihed at how similarly fantastic they sound

-> based on my few days working with Axe XL FW7 [final]  you will find that the Fractal models seem to have  a lot more "gain"  on tap so you may need to run the gains in the Helix amps a bit higher ... again, not a ctitisim, just an honest observation

-> compared to the Helix,  to me,  the Axe  FW7  Final  -still-  sounds  more  "polished"  /  "hi-fi"  than the Helix .... Im not saying this is bad or good for you..... to me, the Helix is just  more "there" .... much more  "in your face" ..... much more real-dirty-nasty-tube-amp-vibe  ...... again you may love or hate this I dont know ... to me, this is a big plus  asby far  the biggest battles I have had with my Axe / Kemper / CLR FRFR set up is  getting rid  of the polish / smoothness  of the Axe and  [very many]  Kemper profiles to try and make them sound more-real

-> the Drive pedals in the Helix are stellar .... to me .... way better than the Kemper, and quite honeslty, better than in the Axe too ..... the "Minitaur"  [Klon]  and "Teemah"  [Timmy]  and  Green tube Screamer [808]  not only sound like the real thing but they respond like the real thing

-> you will need time for your ears to "get used"  to the sound of the Helix if you are coming from Axe-land ... same applies for going to/from a Kemper  etc.... give it time

Heres the bit   [insert modeller of choice here]    "fanbois" rarely concede ........... there is no right answer here :) ..... what I can assure you though is this .... as with the Axe or Kemper ....... if you take your time and learn how to tweak the Helix ...... it will deliver sounds, tone, feel  etc...... every bit as good as anything you will get from an Axe or Kemper .......  any of these  "big three" can deliver equally fantastic tones, but each will sound just a bit different from each other .... this is unavoidable.

Enjoy :)

Ben

Hi timmyo

Not trying to side-track this thread but I just posted the link below over at TGP a few hours ago:-

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/23712369/

By all means go the IR "hunt"  if you need / want / must ..... but honestly, not only is there no real need, but as the others have said, there is no  "better"  or  "best"  .... only what your ears prefer.

Ben

My latest song, and final song, Existence, from my album of the same name. This song wouldn't take the form it does without the existence of Helix. If I had different tools to write it, it would be something completely different, which makes Helix an important part of it, although not the only part. Enjoy and thanks for listening.

This isnt my cup or tea   -BUT-  great tones and great playing  and  GREAT  writing :)

I dont know if you will think this is a compliment or not  - which it most certainly  is  =>   Frank Zappa  would  love  this song and your playing  !!!

Just.  Great.  Stuff.

Ben

No biggie really.

All my stuff these days is in  E flat ..... so  pre-settting the Tuner to  415.3  and therefore having it  show  " E / A / D etc.... "  in-lieu of  E flat  etc.....  is easier to follow when quickly  looking at it and tuning live between songs / sections  etc ..... rather than having to look for  E flat  etc... on the display.

Like I said, just an old-man convenience thing.

Ben

Hi all

Just a quick Tuner question.

I know  440  [ A ]  is "standard"  .... and I recall  (?)  the Helix Tuner has  + / -  Refernence Adjustment (?)

If my memory is right:-

=> can the Helix Tuner be  Reference Adjusted to  415.3  which is  E flat  ?

Thanks,

Ben

This is interesting. I'm guessing a too subtle slope would explain why when I try to tame the krinkle to where I like it but  then overall tone just gets too low middy and kinda dead. ?

 

 

Got it in one.

That is precisely the issue / problem  with how the current  2.12  Lo / Hi  Cut  "slopes"  are working.

Hopefully this is "fixed"  soon.

Ben

Yep.   WAH block when first going to a new preset with 2.12

Hi all

Just want to chime in here again with some further real-world gig experiece  re: the  hi / lo cut  "issue".

Long winded  Background .... sorry :(

Had a show last night and got to use the other guitarists Helix as he was double-booked for another show elsewhere - was me and another of the "regulars"  -  all good.

We did  3 x 45  "classic rock"  ..... you know, all the ususal suspects   :).

Prior to the show  - I loaded up the Helix presets I made when I  had  "his"  Helix   :) ..... no problems ... all good.

For all my live work I run a CLR Active wedge behind me - and I use either my Axe XL  or  my Kemper - the Axe and Kemper use the same IR combo - 2 x 12  3 Sigma Bogner Zilla  3B  and 5A  in a 50/50 split  summed to 0 db with a  95hz lo cut and a 4.2khz high cut ..... strongs cuts I know but it gives a  "really real"  guitar cab vibe   :)

By way of backgrounf - in the Axe I use a  6 db slope  with the  95 / 4.2 cuts ...... with the Kemper I  pre-mised the 2 cabs externaly and matched the hi / lo cuts by ear and recording  [ Kemper doest call their Cab hi / lo cuts  ... its just  + / -  db adjustments.

Anyway .... tonally  [ not gain-wise ]  the Axe and Kemper  presets and profiles all sit in the same nice "range"

With the Helix last night, I ran the same to cabs,  50 / 50 split summed to 0 db set to  95 / 4.2k cut ... same as the same cabs in the Axe and Kemper ...... note guitar  [ Tele ]  is my regular across all rigs.

Helix sounds were  amazing  live ..... genuinly great ... that was as I had expected .... the problem was that I had these  lo / hi frequencies that had me dumbfounded ..... was like I had a low / high boost  in the presets ... whcih I knew I didnt.

30 min break between sets !!!!

End of set 1,  took a 10 min break - grabbed my ATM headphones and wen to my rig.

Plugged in .... even in my headphones it was these - I checked all my presets - all good.

As a last effort  I went to my IR slots .... damn they were set right too ..... 95 / 4.2k.

About to go back on in 10m ..... why not I figured ... I randlomlny re-set all the Cab Lo / hi  cuts  to  120hz and  3k .... worst case scenaerio I thought .... Id rather less lo / hi end than more if they were my only 2 choices.

Bingo ......... the 120 / 3k cut sound  pretty much just like my Axe / KPA  tonal ranges

Got home ... did some further "testing" ....... this really was  "bugging me".

Result

Same IR's..... same settings .....  95 / 4.2  cut in Axe and KPA = what my ears know and are used to .....  Helix ended up needing on   ~110 / ~3.2k  cuts  to sound  "tonally"  the same .....  however ***

Conclusion

From my so-far limited expereice and so-far basic test ... my ears are telling my that  the  Helix Cab  Lo / Hi  Cut   " slopes'  must be  realtively  quite flat .... like I said ... in the Axe I use a 6db per octave slope  [ it also has a 12db per octave slope from memory ]   and this  6db per octave slope is very easily duplicated in my Kemper.

I can only assume that that the  lo / hi cut  slopes in the Helix are of a totally differnet "shape" / "structure".

***  -  in a practial tweaking sense, the real issue with flatter-slopes  is  mor noticeable in the hi end  ie:  even a relativley small change from  say  3.2k hi cut to  3.4k hi cut makes a BIG  difference to high end content re-introduced .... similar, but not as audibly  immediate in the lo end too

Anyway .... 2nd a 3rd sets sounded awesome - as good a sound as Ive gotten from any modeller ....... but would be really good if this  "issue"  could be addressed  "up the line" ..... ie:-  selectable  [for example]   6db per octave and  12db per octave slopes for the lo / hi cab cuts would be ideal

Thanks to all.

Ben

 

 

Did some referencing today after repairing these two old Fender amps. The Tremolux on the Left is our bass player's old guitar amp. It needed an new bias filter cap. The Showman on the right is my amp from 1968. It needed a new output transformer, new tubes, new filter caps in the power supply and a new optocoupler for the tremolo circuit. The Temolux has the original Oxford 10K5's while the Showman has a pair of new Celestion G12-65's. That's an old Lexicon MPXG2 guitar effects processor on top of the Showman. Its still pretty interesting, but not used in this test. 

 

While testing the amps I thought I might not only compare the Tremolux and Showman, but also use them to reference my typical Helix patch, just to make sure I'm in the ballpark. I typically use that JBL EON610 as my vocal and guitar monitor so I used that to compare against the reference.

 

The Tremolux and Showman certainly sound different, I think mostly because of the different speakers and the different tremolo circuit. The Tremolux is the older bias tremolo while the Showman is the newer optical tremolo. The difference is that the optical tremolo cuts some of the gain in the Normal channel, even if the tremolo is off. That doesn't happen with the bias tremolo. Although they sound different, they are clearly the very similar sounding amps. That Tremolux has a little magic going.

 

Here's the surprise. I have the Celestion G12-65 IRs, and one I made myself of that exact cabinet with the Showman. I found using my IR and a Deluxe Vib amp model, I got an almost exact replica of that Showman amp coming out of Helix and that EON610. However, to do so, I had to turn the high cut on the IR way down to about 3.2 KHz. The Celestion G12-65 and all the other IRs I had were even brighter.

 

I was very surprised that all the IRs seemed to be a lot brighter through that EON610 than either reference amp. I found that I had to turn the high cut down to between 2 and 3 KHz to match the tone, and to achieve a warm pleasant tone from the Helix.

 

Have others noticed that the IRs tend to be very bright and need a lot of high cut in Helix? The 3sigmaaudio IRs were especially bright. They sound great with a lot of high cut, but I don't understand why this would be needed. I don't recall having this problem using the same IRs in S-Gear, but that's though different monitor speakers.

 

It could be the EON610. The response curve doesn't look like there's a lot of high boost, and I have the EQ turned off in the speaker. But maybe that horn is adding a lot of hype to the high end.

 

So the lesson is referencing real amps and then adjusting Helix IR low and hi cut to compensate for your FRFR can be a valuable and surprising learning experience.

 

Glad its not just me :)

Compared to the same IR in my Axe or Kemper, when loaded in the Helix, the require  more lo cut and more hi-cut.

When using my Axe or Kemper with my CLR for live rock shows - CLR is behind me angled up at me like a real cab - my  3 Sigma Zilla Bogner 2 x 12  IR's need  a  95 hz lo cut and a  5.5kz  hi cut

Same IR combo's in the Helix needed  110 hz lo and  3.8kz hi cut.

My gues is that the  lo cut and hi cut "slopes" on the Helix are tapped quite differently to the way they are tapered in the Axe and Kemper.

All the Celestion IR's I bought and tried made my 3 Sigma IR's sound " dull " ...... even a  110 / 3.8k  cut on the Celestions left them too bright for my use / ears.

And as for the OH's - I know some love them but  man are they  wooly / dull  compared to just about any other IR I have tried.

Ben

I only used the top two meters. 

Thanks.

Ben

This Orban meter looks awesome.

Quick question:-

=> which of its meters is the best one to use for matching preset levels  ?

Ben

Cool.  Thanks.  Not  " my cup of tea "  -  I'm an " old-school-British-cranked-gain-and-cranked-mids "  guy  -  but I suspect for many more modern players it will be very well received.

Thanks again,

Ben 

Hey all

In the  upcoming  2.20  there is a  Line 6  " Badonk "  (?)  ..... is this a Bass Amp  or a  Guitar  Amp  ?

Also, any idea what  actual-real-world-amp   it may  loosely  be modelled on  ?

Ben