jdosher

Looks like fullcompass has the full kit for $5

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/607336-line-6-97-001-0016-washer-kit-for-helix

That would be great if they've finally fixed it. What firmware are you running? Did you read my original post starting this thread (or ideally the entire thread)? Make sure you're really replicating the issue discussed in this thread. The issue isn't about two different EXT amp relay states in two different snapshots; it's about the having the same saved state in two snapshots, manually changing a relay, then switching to the other snapshot. In that situation the Helix (floor model in my case) changes LED state but does not actually change the relay to the state saved in the snapshot. Basically the unit compares the saved states between the two snapshots, sees that the saved state is the same, and doesn't issue the command to revert the relay. Read the original post (from 2017). I know it wasn't fixed in 2.8 - Line 6 actually really screwed up  EXT amp relay switching in 2.8 (again, read this entire thread), and I haven't seen any comments in the bug-fixes reported for subsequent firmware releases indicating this 3-year old bug has been fixed yet.

Amen. 

I can't envision a scenario where a user wants block bypass state, external effects loop state, the state of the LED ring on a EXT AMP footswitch, but NOT the relay itself to snap back to the saved snapshot state. I really can't buy the argument of "that's the intended design". What it is, is a design flaw - one that Line 6 has been negligent in addressing every since the Helix came out. It's really frustrating to see firmware release notes touting this and that new effects or amp model, but then release after release they're not addressing some serious bugs. IN FACT, they completely broke the EXT AMP switching in 2.80 and released the firmware without even realizing it. This is clear indication to me that Line 6 isn't testing how the Helix interacts with external amps, preamps, and effects units.  Again, they're selling the ability to seamlessly integrate with real amps and external MIDI gear, but they're not implementing in a reliable, professional way, and they're not thoroughly testing their firmware before releasing it. 

I'm not a professional musician, and I'm not currently touring, but I've played guitar for 39 years, I've recorded several albums, and I take it very seriously. While I think Line 6 almost hit the ball out of the park with the Helix, over time I've started to feel like their intended target is just a tad short of the professional, serious, touring musician. And maybe that's not a bad thing on their part because, really, the ratio of "regular" folks to pro musicians is probably 100,000:1. You target your product where the market lies. I'm sure Fender makes way more money selling MIM Strats than Custom Shop guitars. 

For the time being I've thrown in the towel on the Helix. It's been pulled from my rig and I'm going a different route. I'll see what transpires when 2.81 is released (and also see how long that takes). FWIW, last night I plugged into a Timmy, the front of my Bogner Shiva, and stuck an analog delay in the fx loop. I was doing some volume swells and I could hear the transition from clean to distorted in the preamp, then the Timmy, then the power tubes. It was inspiring, and felt like a level of expression somewhat like a cellist varying bow pressure. I know - sounds like a bit of hyperbole, but it was something I haven't been experiencing with my rig in a while. The electrical engineer in me knows that quality A/Ds and models can/should be imperceptible to "the real thing", but something different sure was going on there. Or maybe I'm just trying to help myself ditch the Helix despite the unarguable convenience it offers. :-) 

It's not really clear from the manual though, is it? Because it also says this

I don't think of the EXT AMP relays as "messages" - they're hardware built into the unit and I think they should be consistent with the button state. Oh well. 

Thanks for the info.

I guess I don't see anything in the manual that leads me to believe the intended function is for the EXT AMP relays to NOT revert to the saved snapshot state. That bit of the manual I posted says to me that I should expect the relays to track the saved state. I think that's a bug.  I don't see why anyone would want their fx blocks and external loops to revert to the snapshot state, but not the EXT AMP relays (assuming you have shapshot edits set to discard, which I do). If Line 6 doesn't consider that a bug and has no intention of fixing it, then that's another solid reason for me to move on from the Helix, just as @JeffMarshMusic discussed earler in this thread.  I found a good deal on a used Boss ES-8 and I have a pretty nice set of pedals I've collected over the past 30 years, plus I just picked up this great sounding Bogner Shiva. I think it's time for me to go back to real amps and pedals. I'll see what happens with 2.81, try the ES-8 for a while, and decided then. If the Helix doesn't make its way back in to my rig it may end up relegated to home use. The amp and cab sims would be handy for songwriting and recording demos at least.

EVERY time I turn my Helix on after the 2.80 update now it rebuilds the presets, quadrupling the boot time. Not just once. Every f*cking time. Also, my EXT AMP controls no longer work properly. 

Oh GREAAAAT. Now with 2.80 firmware the EXT AMP is even MORE broken. When I engage the 'ring' relay (should engage boost on my Bogner Shiva), it's now causing it to switch back to channel 1, even though the 'tip' relay is still engaged. I hate to say it, but my time with the Helix is coming to an end. I'm probably going to pick up a Boss ES-8 and go back to real pedals. Line 6 has failed to fix this bug, and now they've actually made it worse, to the point that I can no longer use the Helix at all to switch the channels and boost on my amp. They've also failed to implement a much needed feature (global blocks) which is what has lead me to use external pre-amps and/or amps and real drive pedals in the first place. I need a consistent sound, not 100 different amp sims to sound like other musicians. 

addendum: This is totally fcked up. Now when I switch EXT AMP sleeve on/off the built in expression pedal changes from 98% to 100%. Line 6 has seriously messed something up in the firmware. 

I updated to 2.80. No luck. The bug persists. I think that's strike 3 for me - this piece of junk is going on Craigslist. I've been working around this bug every since the Helix came out, but I've had my fill. Line 6 has added a bunch of useless amp and FX models I don't need, but can't fix a major bug. I'm done. 

Hi C4TH, 

Nope, that's not the issue. Read back through this thread. Save two snapshots to have the same EXT AMP settings (dim). In snapshot two press your EXT AMP footswitch (lit). Switch back to snapshot one. The LED will go back to dim, but your amp will still be in the 'lit' state (clean in your case). The Helix is comparing the saved snapshot state rather than the actual state of the relay when decided to toggle the relay state. Maybe (hopefully) 2.80 has fixed this. I hope it has. I'm going to try it this evening. 

Hi Phil, yeah, read back through my previous posts: the relays track state properly when only changing snapshots. The issue is changing relay state in a snapshot, then the relay isn't getting properly changed back to its saved (and indicated) state when changing snapshots (or recalling the same snapshot). If I assign a loop to a footswitch I expect that loop to go to its saved state regardless of what happened in a different snapshot. Same with block's bypass state. And I think the same should be expected of the Ext Amp relays! Clearly the system things it's changing back to the stored state - the LED ring turns off. But the relay doesn't change to reflect the state of the footswitch. When I go from a screaming lead on channel two with the boost (on my Shiva) turned on, then I hit 'CLEAN' to go to a nice, quiet clean sound, I'd say it's pretty serious bug when my CH2 and BOOST footswitches are dim but my amp is still screaming like a banshee and I don't know what the hell is going on!

well,  two things: the relay state is not a command that gets sent out the MIDI port like the CCs and PC messages. If the footswitch controlling a relay changes to 'off' in a snapshot, then you'd expect the relay to reflect that state, yeah? For the LED state and the relay state to NOT match is a serious bug. Period. 

Also, if you have Snapshot Edits set to Recall, then it won't change the Ext Amp (or other items you've manually pressed) back to the state in the new snapshot. That would defeat the purpose of going back to, for example, the clean channel when I go to snapshot 1. When I hit a footswitch that's labeled "CLEAN" I want the dang Helix to change my amp back to its clean channel!! I don't just want the LED ring on the Ext Amp footswitch to go dim while the relay stays close and my amp stays on its dirty channel. Right!? This is firmware bug - there's just no way around that. I'm hoping it's fixed in 2.80, or I may just ditch the Helix.

Thanks Phil,

Ah, I didn't realize 2.80 had finally come out last month. I'll try 2.80 and see what happens. I don't see it mentioned in the bug fixes with the 2.80 release, but I'm hoping for the best. 

I have Snapshot Edits set to Discard, so the saved state of the snapshot should be reloaded. Hence the "Everything turns back off..." in my second example.

According to the manual the Ext Amp states should be recalled when changing snapshots. The LED state (dim or lit) is recalled, but the actual relay at the hardware level is NOT being set.

Hi Phil, 

Yes, I'm on the latest firmware, 2.71.0. It's definitely not working correctly. And just to be clear, Ext Amp states will follow the saved state in snapshots as expected. The bug is that if you manually change a relay state then switch to a different snapshot the LED ring will change to the saved state, but the relay doesn't change. 

To reproduce this:

1) save two snapshots, each with Ext Amp tip off

2) switch to snapshot 2

3) press the foot switch assigned to Ex Amp tip to turn it on. The LED ring lights up, the relay closes. In my case, my amp goes to its dirty channel.

4) now switch to snapshot 1. The LED ring turns off, but the relay stays latched on. In my case snapshot 1 is supposed to be clean, but my amp remains on its dirty channel. 

You can also reproduce this with a single snapshot:

1) Save a snapshot with everything turned off

2) turn on all loops, blocks, Ext Amp states, etc. 

3) press the snapshot footswitch again. Everything turns back off, including the Ext Amp footswitch LED, but the relays do NOT change back to the off (open) state. 

I've reproduced this with a Bogner Shiva, an Effectrode Blackbird tube preamp, and a DMM. This is most definitely a bug - not the intended behavior. 

In the hope that I could bypass this software bug by purchasing something like the Voodoo Labs MIDI amp switcher and using MIDI from the Helix, I tested this by assigning a MIDI CC toggle to a footswitch. Nope. It's even worse: MIDI CC toggle is only sent by manually pressing the footswitch. Even though the state of the assigned footswitch changes per snapshot, the MIDI CC is not sent. 

Line 6. Please fix your software bug and make Ext Amp switching work properly. 

The Helix should be able to do this, but the functionality is partially broken. You can change Ext Amp relay states on a per-snapshot basis, but if you manually change states (eg switch amp channels) the Helix will NOT change the Ext Amp relay(s) to match the state when changing to another snapshot. Major bug!

Wow. This is ridiculous. 

Today I was trying to set up my Helix to work with a new amp (Bogner Shiva). The Ext Amp control is able to switch channels and turn on/off the boost on the Shiva. All good. Then I noticed something odd: the relays for Ext Amp control are NOT following the snapshot state properly. So I google around, only to discover this very thread I started....OVER A F***ING YEAR AGO. C'mon Line 6, get your sh*t together and correct this software bug. If I manually switch amp channels by pressing an assigned footswitch while in a snapshot, the amp channel should then change to the proper state when I change to a different snapshot. The LED ring changes state properly, but the relays in the Helix are NOT changing properly. THIS IS A BUG. FIX IT!!!

Effects blocks and loop states can all change to match the new snapshot; the Ext Amp relays should do the same. 

I'd say what you're trying to do is perfectly normal - and yes I would say it's a bug - either that or a design flaw in the snapshot recall process.

 

I suppose the algorithm compares the new snapshot to the old snapshot and makes any changes necessary - but it needs to be able to compare the new snapshot to the current state also - surely all the other FX blocks recall properly upon snapshot change if you've manually toggled them??  

 

I would expect that when I select a snapshot it will recall the snapshot.  Period.

I agree. The whole idea of the "snapshot" is that it exactly recalls the stored state. I wanted to make sure it wasn't just me. I'd definitely call it a bug, or an oversight. I certainly understand why it works out that way because the Command Center thinks it doesn't need to "resend" the Ext Amp message. But I think the Helix needs to look at the current state of the Ext Amp and see if that differs from the new state when changing snapshots. It certainly does that with any effect that you've turned on/off. As it is now, the hardware and firmware aren't in sync, and that's a bug in my mind. Oh yeah, it's also a pain in the lollipop ;-)

I'm confused by this. I'm able to set EXT AMP states per-snapshot just fine, but something odd is happening if I change EXT AMP state then switch to another snapshot. The assigned footswitch will change state (on the LCD and LED), but the EXT AMP relay won't actually change state to follow the setting in the snapshot. I've gone into more detail in another post:

http://line6.com/support/topic/25774-external-amp-switching-not-following-snapshots-properly/

OK,

 

Possible Bug here, but could also be my misunderstanding or indeed the way my Bogner behaves with Channel Switching from the EXT AMP socket.

 

So..

 

I have presets set up with snapshots - usual thing - Clean/Crunch/Dirty/Lead switching the amp channel respectively

 

In "Stomp Mode" I have access to all of the effects I have assigned to the buttons, also the furthest 2 right buttons are set to the Amp switching (Channel and Boost as per amp footswitch) and I sometimes use these to change amp channels within a snapshot.

 

All is good if I am just changing between scenes, however, if I am in a Snapshot and then change amp channel from within a snapshot and then change to a different snapshot ( i.e going from the Crunch Snapshot where I have been changing amp channels within that snapshot as well and then switch to the Lead snapshot) the amp or at least the amp channel will just default to the amp's clean channel (as if there is no footswitch plugged in) regardless of how I have the "lights" set for the amp channels within other snapshots.

 

Example is Hotel California - using the Crunch snapshot for the whole song switching the amp's O/D channel in and out for the various bits of the song and then at the end hitting the Lead snapshot for my lead sound - should come out with a meaty Lead sound but as I have been changing the state of the actual amp channels within the Crunch snapshot it just defaults back to clean sound (even though the snapshot is selecting the o/d and boost options on the amp)

 

Help!!

I'm experiencing this same issue. Did you figure it out? It does seem to be kind of like what phil_m is describing - if the stored state from one snapshot to the other is the same, the unit doesn't think it needs to "send out the command". Except in this case, the Helix is switching an internal relay, so I'd think it'd always make sure the relay and the indicated state ("on" or "lit") are always in sync.

In all of my presets I'm using the EXT AMP output to switch channels on my Blackbird preamp pedal (for clean vs dirty). When I move between different snapshots the EXT AMP state changes properly; however, if I toggle a footswitch assigned to EXT AMP in one snapshot, then move to another snapshot the EXT AMP relay doesn't change. The on/off state of the assigned footswtich LCD/LED does change state, but the actual state of the relay isn't changing. 

Here's a specific example:

snapshot 1 is clean (ie EXT AMP is "off", or dim)

snapshot 2 is clean, but has some extra effects on it

1) Switch to snapshot 2, play, push the EXT AMP footswitch to "on", preamp switches, distortion is on.

2) Switch to snapshot 1, EXP AMP LCD indicates amp is "off" and I should be back on the clean channel, but the preamp pedal is actually still on the distorted channel.

3) Push EXT AMP footswitch to "on", LCD indicates "on", preamp stays on distorted channel. Push EXT AMP footswitch a second time, LCD indicates "off", preamp is finally switched to its clean channel. 

So, basically, if you manually change the state of EXT AMP in a snapshot, it's not correctly changing states when you move to a different snapshot. The relay follows states properly when changing between snapshots, and manual changes also work properly in any given snapshot, but manually changing states in one snapshot gets out of sync when changing to another snapshot.

Is there something I'm not understanding, or is this a bug? It seems like a bug to me. 

I get a significant amount of hiss when an fx loop (mono in this case) is put before an amp block, and entirely vanishes when placed after the amp/cab, just like jdalaz said. This is with a patch cable in the fx loop being used. But it's not just after the cab block. For example, on a patch with three different gain blocks before the amp: compressor, valve driver, and gain block, when the fx loop is placed after the compressor, the hiss is slightly less. After the valve driver and it's just about gone. After the gain block and it's completely gone.

 

Another interesting thing about using a patch cabled fx block is when putting it after the amp, or after the cab, and setting the mix to 50%, it's gives a very airy quality to the tone. Almost like a stuck flanger. It's actually sounds like it could be useful somewhere. Whether or not it is supposed to do this, I don't know.

(I know this is an old thread, but maybe someone else will read this) What you're experiencing is due to phase cancellation. There's a slightly different time delay for the signal to pass through the external FX send/return vs the internal "signal". Pretty much exactly what a flanger does, it just varies the time difference. (The Electric Mistress actually has a switch to lock the time, hence that "stuck flanger" sound - think Alex Lifeson ala Freewill solo.)

This is by design... The max delay time for the Bucket Brigade is 300ms, and when you tap in a tempo that would result in a longer delay time, the Helix gives you an actual delay time that would still be in sync with what you tapped, just a shorter note subdivision. Ben Adrian describes it in detail here on TGP.

 

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/line6-helix.1586637/page-955#post-21327347

Thanks for the info! My admittedly quick google search didn't net anything. 

I do wish the manual went into more detail on specific effects blocks and their parameters. Most are obvious, but there are a number of settings here and there that aren't quite so obvious - along with some of the min/max constraints like in the Bucket Brigade. 

Firmware 1.12.0.

Not sure if this was just an anomaly when I observed it, or widely reproducible: it seems the bucket brigade delay isn't responding to slower tap-tempos. Not ridiculously slow either, like 70bpm and slower.

it means (hyperbole alert) that if you're trying to get them to send their valuable time modeling the perfect snare verb or vocal verb or what have you, instead of things that a LOT of guitarists want mostly, sales will drop off, there will never be a Helix 2, and DI will have to get a job at McDonalds to feed his kids... I don't want that.

 

No... seriously... better verbs for guitar and such? Yes please (although I like what we have in there now). Big Sky type stuff? Yes, Please.

 

Lots of studio verbs for vocals and snares and such? No thanks. Give us more amp models, more pedal models, something like "scenes" in Axe-land... stuff like that.

Scenes! Yes, please. Personally, I'm interested in functional additions rather than more and more amp models, or a hundred different distortion pedals. I've said it before and I'll say it again: please give us scenes and global blocks.

Or... there's another idea...

 

Stay with me a second...

 

For some guys (this used to be me on the HD 500, btw), it just makes sense to get a conventional volume pedal (a buffered one if you'd like) and put it before the input on Helix!

 

I know, it doesn't make sense for everyone (I want drive pedals before it sometimes), but it might be a great low tech solution for some.

I've never found a "virtual" volume pedal that feels and responds like my old (early 90's?) Ernie Ball, so yep, that volume pedal has moved from rig to rig over the years, always right at the very front.