zaphodboy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I use JTV-vdi-HD500-l6 link-L3m. It's a very flat response set up and I find that right out of the box if you add an amp block with no effects or EQ (full model, not PRE) the amp is more than usable in a live situation (apart from the JCM model which I can't get right to save my life, lol). Sure you can tweak, add EQs, effects etc. and 'make it your own sound' but IMO you don't have to do it to get a decent live sound. The only difficult bit for me is volume matching the amps....now maybe that's something L6 could look at? All IMO of course :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 I use JTV-vdi-HD500-l6 link-L3m. It's a very flat response set up and I find that right out of the box if you add an amp block with no effects or EQ (full model, not PRE) the amp is more than usable in a live situation (apart from the JCM model which I can't get right to save my life, lol). Sure you can tweak, add EQs, effects etc. and 'make it your own sound' but IMO you don't have to do it to get a decent live sound. The only difficult bit for me is volume matching the amps....now maybe that's something L6 could look at? All IMO of course :) Now here's a crazy thought that's been running thru my mind for some time now: Since everybody in Line 6 is a great guitarist and they have excellent engineers I guess there must be a purely business reason why they made POD HD such that it sounds unusable by default thru PA at a gig. And the reason could be that Line 6 wants us to use StageSource speakers which have this "Electric Guitar" mode, right? So I guess in this mode the speakers use the EQ which should be the "Live Gig" mode. I understand the speakers have more information about the volume that they're playing at so they could alter the EQ dynamically according to that but still. zaphodboy, I guess when you connect your POD HD to L3m with an electric guitar tone it will set the "Electric Guitar" mode on the speakers automatically, right? Could you switch manually to "Flat" and see what happens at a gig volume? Because that is what we here in the clubs... Anyway, I'd understand, it's all business, no hard feelings here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphodboy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Now here's a crazy thought that's been running thru my mind for some time now: Since everybody in Line 6 is a great guitarist and they have excellent engineers I guess there must be a purely business reason why they made POD HD such that it sounds unusable by default thru PA at a gig. And the reason could be that Line 6 wants us to use StageSource speakers which have this "Electric Guitar" mode, right? So I guess in this mode the speakers use the EQ which should be the "Live Gig" mode. I understand the speakers have more information about the volume that they're playing at so they could alter the EQ dynamically according to that but still. zaphodboy, I guess when you connect your POD HD to L3m with an electric guitar tone it will set the "Electric Guitar" mode on the speakers automatically, right? Could you switch manually to "Flat" and see what happens at a gig volume? Because that is what we here in the clubs... Anyway, I'd understand, it's all business, no hard feelings here... Actually I have it set to PA/ ref mode except when using acoustic tones where I set it for acoustic guitar. Setting it to Electric Guitar mode just seems to EQ it, and not to my liking. That being the case I would imagine any flat p.a. (and some are flatter than others, right?) would do a similar job. The beauty of the Stagesource is it's connectability/ switchability by the POD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Actually I have it set to PA/ ref mode except when using acoustic tones where I set it for acoustic guitar. Setting it to Electric Guitar mode just seems to EQ it, and not to my liking. That being the case I would imagine any flat p.a. (and some are flatter than others, right?) would do a similar job. The beauty of the Stagesource is it's connectability/ switchability by the POD. Ok, interesting, thanks. Do you have an actual amp to which you could compare (like really head-to-head)? I wonder if it sounds more like an amp in the "flat" mode or in the "electric guitar" one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphodboy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Ok, interesting, thanks. Do you have an actual amp to which you could compare (like really head-to-head)? I wonder if it sounds more like an amp in the "flat" mode or in the "electric guitar" one... No I don't unfortunately. Even if I did though I'm not sure it would help that much. Just as one 1977 Les Paul Standard sounds different from another supposedly identical guitar so do amps. I think you'd have to compare the sound to the actual amp L6 used to do the modelling to get a true comparison. What I can say is that my rig gets a great range of guitar amp sounds and I haven't yet found a tone I can't get really close to. How authentic they sound is another matter when compared to the real thing. Electric guitar mode models a speaker cab so in theory you should use the PODs PRE models otherwise you're modelling a speaker twice. I have tried this approach but thePA mode with full models on the whole sounds better to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Cool, thanks. I didn't think you'd compare to the actual modelled amp, just an amp. If you pick a similar model, you should be able to say whether the tone is in the same ballpark frequency-wise, or in this case which of the modes is closer to it. I didn't know you were supposed to use the PREs models when running thru StageSource in the "Electric Guitar" mode. In that case it's irrelevant anyway, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 This reminds me of some of the old original multiFX units back in the 80s. They translated very well into different playback options with a little tweaking. There are way more parameters and numerous options now with the HD. Seems the anwer you want might be the Firehawk Amplifi etc I remember those little gray Zoom boxes from the '90s, too. At the time, I thought those things sounded great in just about every situation, pulled my 505 out of the closet a few weeks ago and now I realise it sounds like total (deflated) balls. Lots of fizz and scoopiness, too much distortion, wierd digital gating..... things are sooo much better now. Kronda, the idea isn't a bad one, but a "fix-all" for this type of thing is never actually a fix-all, because all needs and ears are different. I could see them maybe implementing "ideal" global EQ presets, but I think assigning it to an output mode might cause more problems for people. My personal experience is that an empty chain with an amp/cab/mic and dials at noon sounds about as I would expect to if I plugged into someone else's amp at a gig and didn't adjust anything. EQ curves that make electric guitar "sound good" usually don't translate well into a mix. This isn't meant to be condescending or anything, but maybe you would find your tone easier with an older-generation modeler with more "idealised" amp models like a Floor POD+, X3/T, or something from the Zoom G-series. They are all viable options that gigging musicians use every day and, in my experience, are little more "ready-to-go" right out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphodboy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I remember those little gray Zoom boxes from the '90s, too. At the time, I thought those things sounded great in just about every situation, pulled my 505 out of the closet a few weeks ago and now I realise it sounds like total (deflated) balls. Lots of fizz and scoopiness, too much distortion, wierd digital gating..... things are sooo much better now. Kronda, the idea isn't a bad one, but a "fix-all" for this type of thing is never actually a fix-all, because all needs and ears are different. I could see them maybe implementing "ideal" global EQ presets, but I think assigning it to an output mode might cause more problems for people. My personal experience is that an empty chain with an amp/cab/mic and dials at noon sounds about as I would expect to if I plugged into someone else's amp at a gig and didn't adjust anything. EQ curves that make electric guitar "sound good" usually don't translate well into a mix. This isn't meant to be condescending or anything, but maybe you would find your tone easier with an older-generation modeler with more "idealised" amp models like a Floor POD+, X3/T, or something from the Zoom G-series. They are all viable options that gigging musicians use every day and, in my experience, are little more "ready-to-go" right out of the box. Funnily enough I came across my old Korg the other week in a junk box...I think it was the A5 which I actually gigged with in the early 90s. I plugged it into my Marshall tube amp to see what it sounded like. The result? Embarrassingly bad...fizzy....hissy.....horrible! Just goes to show how far modellers have come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Kronda, the idea isn't a bad one, but a "fix-all" for this type of thing is never actually a fix-all, because all needs and ears are different. I could see them maybe implementing "ideal" global EQ presets, but I think assigning it to an output mode might cause more problems for people. My personal experience is that an empty chain with an amp/cab/mic and dials at noon sounds about as I would expect to if I plugged into someone else's amp at a gig and didn't adjust anything. Exactly. "Ideal" for what? Do you want to play "Brown Eyed Girl" or "Master of Puppets"? Is there another guitar to contend with in the mix? Is the bass player deaf and determined to be heard in the next county? Is it your typical hardwood floor barroom, or a more lounge-y type joint with a carpet and bunch of plush couches sucking up all the high end? Until somebody starts building gear that can analyze each unique acoustic environment and adjust itself accordingly, I'm afraid we're all just gonna have to use our ears...global EQ is at least a step in the right direction, and is the closest to a "fix-all" as we're gonna get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I really wouldn't mind having a programmable stereo EQ pedal with reference mic input and presets so I could "room EQ" my sound at venues I play frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I really wouldn't mind having a programmable stereo EQ pedal with reference mic input and presets so I could "room EQ" my sound at venues I play frequently. Is there such a thing? Couldn't hurt as a jumping off point, I guess...but where do you put the mic? Most rooms will sound different depending on where you're standing. And when you sound-check, the place is mostly empty, right? Fill it with a couple hundred people, and things have changed again. Every "solution" comes with a new set of problems...just one of the many challenges of gigging. Learn to get the most out of whatever gear you're using, and trust your ears. Perfection and effortless set-up ain't coming anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 ...My personal experience is that an empty chain with an amp/cab/mic and dials at noon sounds about as I would expect to if I plugged into someone else's amp at a gig and didn't adjust anything.... This is not true for my POD HD Pro. At a "comfortable to listen in isolation" level, perhaps, but at a gig volume level, absolutely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Everyones ears are different. It seems you are happy with your POD other than the fact that you had to learn to use it properly before you could be happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 This is not true for my POD HD Pro. At a "comfortable to listen in isolation" level, perhaps, but at a gig volume level, absolutely not. It sounds like perhaps you're asking for something like a Fletcher Munson correction. That's actually something that people have asked for for years on the various Line 6 products. I think Line 6 is probably hesitant to try to implement something because it could easily be misunderstood and misused. Anyway, here's an article they wrote up about it a few years ago. http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/general-faq/studio-tone-vs-live-tone-and-the-fletcher-muns-r448 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftzilla Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have been using POD products directly to a PA for years, even the AX212 direct out. (Which was the last guitar amp I used. I currently have an Amplifi 75 that I use as a stage monitor when needed) I have always gotten good sound and based all of my sound off of headphones or recordings directly out of the POD. I currently have a POD HD500X which I run straight to the board on the Bands PA (JXR100s powered by Behringer NU3000 power amp) multiple house systems including RosFest, Dover Brickhouse, New Jersey Prog House, Rusty Nail, etc etc etc. These systems go from Theaters, to medium to small bars. I have a progressive band with very aggressive overdriven sounds, acoustics, sitars etc with a JTV89F to an 80s cover band using a JTV59. All of this uses the Studio Direct output. I have received many compliments on my sound. So I disagree with your statement that the POD sound unusable by default I have tried reading through your replies to see if something jumped out at me that you may be doing wrong but I couldn't find anything that would stand out as an "aha" moment. Hopefully something will work for you or you will find what is making this so frustrating for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have been using POD products directly to a PA for years, even the AX212 direct out. (Which was the last guitar amp I used. I currently have an Amplifi 75 that I use as a stage monitor when needed) I have always gotten good sound and based all of my sound off of headphones or recordings directly out of the POD. I currently have a POD HD500X which I run straight to the board on the Bands PA (JXR100s powered by Behringer NU3000 power amp) multiple house systems including RosFest, Dover Brickhouse, New Jersey Prog House, Rusty Nail, etc etc etc. These systems go from Theaters, to medium to small bars. I have a progressive band with very aggressive overdriven sounds, acoustics, sitars etc with a JTV89F to an 80s cover band using a JTV59. All of this uses the Studio Direct output. I have received many compliments on my sound. So I disagree with your statement that the POD sound unusable by default I have tried reading through your replies to see if something jumped out at me that you may be doing wrong but I couldn't find anything that would stand out as an "aha" moment. Hopefully something will work for you or you will find what is making this so frustrating for you. It doesn't really sound like anything was wrong, dude just didn't want to have to figure out how to make it sound good. If you actually care about your sound you WANT to get into the minutia of it to make sure its "you". At least I think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 The other thing to consider, is this: It's OK to simply not like a piece of gear. Everyone who has ever played a note has run across stuff they just plain hated. Years ago I wanted to downsize my rig a bit for the sake of convenience, so I got a Boogie 2x12 cabinet that sounded OK at store volume. However, no matter what amp I fed it, when cranked it was nothing but mid-range honk. Almost as if I had turned the mids to 11 and everything else to zero. Sounded like I was playing through a giant nose...with sinus problems. Hated the thing, and eventually sold it. It happens...some stuff you just don't bond with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftzilla Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 gunpointmetal: Ah I originally misread that and didn't see your point. I fully agree. The thing that really helped me was the "sag" control, now based on other posts I want to start playing with the cab parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 It sounds like perhaps you're asking for something like a Fletcher Munson correction. That's actually something that people have asked for for years on the various Line 6 products. I think Line 6 is probably hesitant to try to implement something because it could easily be misunderstood and misused. Anyway, here's an article they wrote up about it a few years ago. http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/general-faq/studio-tone-vs-live-tone-and-the-fletcher-muns-r448 Yes, it's definitely related, perhaps that's it. I've read this article a while ago and based on it I could say the Live Gig mode should be optimized for, say, 85dB. I understand Line 6 cannot know what volume we'll be playing at but honestly I don't know either, each show and each soundguy is different, I cannot retweak all my sounds based on listening to PA during soundcheck on every gig (well, now with the upcoming Global EQ I will be able, which is absolutely briliant, but still the starting point provided by Line 6 is IMO unusable). Moreover it actually depends where each individual listener is positioned etc. So again, I'm just saying we should get something usable at approximately 85dB to start with and fine-tune either in each patch or by Global EQ. I think Studio/Direct is optimized to, say, 65dB which is what you use at home/in your headphones. That's why it works fine (as a starting point) when recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have been using POD products directly to a PA for years, even the AX212 direct out. (Which was the last guitar amp I used. I currently have an Amplifi 75 that I use as a stage monitor when needed) I have always gotten good sound and based all of my sound off of headphones or recordings directly out of the POD. I currently have a POD HD500X which I run straight to the board on the Bands PA (JXR100s powered by Behringer NU3000 power amp) multiple house systems including RosFest, Dover Brickhouse, New Jersey Prog House, Rusty Nail, etc etc etc. These systems go from Theaters, to medium to small bars. I have a progressive band with very aggressive overdriven sounds, acoustics, sitars etc with a JTV89F to an 80s cover band using a JTV59. All of this uses the Studio Direct output. I have received many compliments on my sound. So I disagree with your statement that the POD sound unusable by default I have tried reading through your replies to see if something jumped out at me that you may be doing wrong but I couldn't find anything that would stand out as an "aha" moment. Hopefully something will work for you or you will find what is making this so frustrating for you. Thanks for checking, I'm not aware of anything that could be wrong with my setup and I studied all options, I'm frequent reader in these forums and I think I've read through every thread concerning "thin sound live". So I don't think it's a setup issue. The only way I could understand that somebody is not having these issues is that it depends on a guitar - if the guitar doesn't produce many highmid/high frequencies that POD cannot exaggerate them. So perhaps humbuckers are more thinsound-prone that singles. I have two strats - the cheapest korean-built no name which has very dull sound on it's own or when playing through an amp and it actually has smaller thinsound problems but overall it's a weak sound (no definition, no dynamics). Adn then I have an American Fender Strat Plus with Lindy Fralin pickups moreover with ash body and maple neck which is a great guitar sounding absolutely awesome through an amp but the rich top-end then makes it unusable on default POD settings. And no, I cannot conclude from this that I should use the duller-sounding cheap guitar to solve my problem :) It means that POD is very guitar sensitive and not in a sense "better guitar -> better tone" which is not a good thing either. Anyway, I'm glad it works for you. And I have solved the problem as well and with the help of Global EQ I may even get a great tone but still think the unit could be made more usable out-of-the-box quite easily. Hence my item on IdeaScale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 The other thing to consider, is this: It's OK to simply not like a piece of gear. Everyone who has ever played a note has run across stuff they just plain hated. Years ago I wanted to downsize my rig a bit for the sake of convenience, so I got a Boogie 2x12 cabinet that sounded OK at store volume. However, no matter what amp I fed it, when cranked it was nothing but mid-range honk. Almost as if I had turned the mids to 11 and everything else to zero. Sounded like I was playing through a giant nose...with sinus problems. Hated the thing, and eventually sold it. It happens...some stuff you just don't bond with. I like the unit overall. The thing that I point out a possible improvement doesn't mean I want to switch. Rather the opposite - I'd like to contribute to make a good unit even better. I've been a huge Line 6 fan for a long time, have two PODs, two Variaxes. It may be my mistake (not explaining myself properly) but all the suggestions of the "use something else, dude" kind are missing my point. And just for the record, all the comments of the "this unit is out of your league, go Amplify way" kind sound pretty cocky to me, not only in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 ... The thing that really helped me was the "sag" control, now based on other posts I want to start playing with the cab parameters. IMO tweaking DEPs/input impedance/adding short delay to solve the thin live sound problem is a misuse and affects negatively your tone in a different way, usually losing definition, weak attack, no metal (as in "iron") character. I followed this road for some time but concluded it was a dead end. DEPs are great to fine-tune your sound to get the tone character you like, not to solve problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Any idea for improvement is welcome. No-one's knocking the idea of improvement, what we're saying, for the most part, is this isn't an issue for everyone. When I got my HD500 I plugged it into my live rig (powerblock/4x12), cranked it up, and dialed in a sound that everyone in the room was happy with in a matter of minutes with just a couple of gates and the Mesa Preamp model. Of course I've tweaked it over time as I notice things or want a little more or less of something, but I don't think there is anything inherently "wrong" with how the unit sounds out of the box (other than the factory presets, which are never any good on any modeler). I did the same thing with DI patches.....I took my live amp patches, switched the amps to full models, found a cab/mic that sounded good, moved a few EQ knobs, and they sounded really good through our practice PA, even at earsplitting levels. As long as you're creating your tones with the amplification and volume level you intend to use them at, it shouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftzilla Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 You misunderstand, I use the "sag" control to get the sound I want, not to tweak it for PA use. I would also check out the custom tones if you haven't already. I guess I don't notice any shift in sound between my recorded and headphones and going to and through the PA. I always run my personal PA flat and tell any sound guy to run my input eq flat because of the changes between distorted and acoustic guitars (I ran in to that problem with one very experienced sound guy who decided to eq my distorted sound to his preference and thus killed my acoustic sound). I hope you find a solution! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueViolince Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I like the unit overall. The thing that I point out a possible improvement doesn't mean I want to switch. Rather the opposite - I'd like to contribute to make a good unit even better. I've been a huge Line 6 fan for a long time, have two PODs, two Variaxes. It may be my mistake (not explaining myself properly) but all the suggestions of the "use something else, dude" kind are missing my point. And just for the record, all the comments of the "this unit is out of your league, go Amplify way" kind sound pretty cocky to me, not only in this thread. If you are griping about usability issues and poor workflow, then why wouldn't you try the Amplifi? It is aimed at people who don't want the complexity of the HD series. There are people who enjoy tweaking everything to get their tone. Others like to plug and play. Two products for two types of players. I highly doubt that Line 6 will modify the HD architecture the way you want them to. I also highly doubt they will go through the trouble of changing the default settings for the amps to suit your nebulous request of "sound good out of the box". That is what CustomeTone is for. Have you looked through the user files? I wouldn't go to a music store, plug into an amp, and then not adjust the knobs before I decided not to buy it. If you want the right sound without adjusting knobs, get an acoustic guitar. Not trying to pick a fight, but everything you are complaining about has an answer. Either within the unit, or on the website, or in a different product. It's a $500 multi-effect/modeler. There are higher-end, more expensive units out there, and there are cheaper, easier to use units as well. Most people here seem to enjoy chasing the tone. I've had mine for three years or more, and I still make tweaks that improve my sound. Free of charge. I got my Pod to have everything in one box, and I can still gig without the extra pedals if I so choose. I have EQ pedals, volume pedal, and an M5 on the side, but I don't need them to have my core sound. They are there to make my workflow smoother, and a little more adaptable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I also highly doubt they will go through the trouble of changing the default settings for the amps to suit your nebulous request of "sound good out of the box". First we'd need a definition of "good". We could spend the next millenia trying...and failing utterly...to get even that far. Almost as useless as asking Bill Clinton for a definition of "is". :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 1) I don't see why you keep repeating "keep tweaking and you'll find a solution". I did find it. I said several times I am happy now with my tones. I just don't understand why this tweak had to change the default sound so much (and therefore take so much time). 2) Why is the idea that POD HD sounds crap out-of-the-box live through PA at a gig volume a sign of it being a high-end unit? Why should it be hard to get a usable sound out of it? 3) If you're happy with the out-of-the-box sound live through FRFR PA at an ear-piercing volume then congratulations, you and me must be very different people. Seriously, I appreciate your comments explaining you're happy with your sound, makes me think that perhaps Line 6 knew what they were doing with the Studio/Direct mode - as long as there are guitarists appreciating it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueViolince Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 What guitar do you use? What's your venue of choice? What effects do you use? How much high-end hearing loss have you sustained(a serious question)? What's your favourite musician and album? What's your favourite amp? If I knew the answers to all of those questions, I still might not know what sounds good to you. That tells me that the Line 6 engineers are bad at guessing. Guilty as charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I think that is the main point, we are all different and have different expectations of what it should sound like. Its a lose/lose proposition for Line 6 to invent a different start tone for each amp and cab model because no matter what they do, there will still be a whole boatload of people that say WTF were you thinking? There is no way around it with the HD series, no matter where it starts off you have to tweak to get the final sound you are happy with. What sounds good to you with your strats may sound like balls to me with a les paul. Its only a starting point. Maybe the global EQ will do what you are suggesting and give a different starting tone for live vs studio, I don't know... Personally I don't find them all that far off for a starting point but maybe I just can't recognize good tone. If you're happy with the out-of-the-box sound live through FRFR PA at an ear-piercing volume then congratulations, you and me must be very different people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Why is everybody so confident it cannot be done better? I like the sound of almost any guitar+real amp combination at gig volume level. Why is it that I have a huge problem with the default sound of HD through PA? Why can almost all amp makers satisfy my taste (while also pleasing some of the other guitarists) but not Line 6? Perhaps there is a good reason but I don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Uhm because those are amps through cabs and this is a modeler into a PA? Apples to oranges. Have you tried the pre models into the effects return of a real amp? Or next time you get to play through a tube amp mic'ed into the PA, go out front where you can't hear the amp and see if it sounds the same through the mic and the house system? A DI POD signal isn't mimicing an amp in a room, its mimicing an entire signal patch from the input of the first effect in the chain to the mic and the room the cab is in, so a DI signal with cab sims is never going to sound like an amp/cab "in the room". That is the sound I prefer, so I go with pre models into a flat amp into a guitar cab 99% of the time and deal with the issues of that (bring my own mic for my IEM rig, having it not sound right in every room, etc). And when I do go DI, I have to deal with issues there, too i.e. no "room" feel, slight disconnection in the speaker response, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Why is everybody so confident it cannot be done better? kind of what I asked you before... post some patches of amps with your preferred settings for live mode starting point and maybe we can hear what you are getting at. Otherwise you are just asking for some mystical tone that is different for each of us and Line 6 will never get right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks but the idea is that it should be easier than that. If you take a decent real amp, set all controls at noon, plug in a decent guitar and start playing at a gig volume along with drums, you instantly get a usable tone. I think it should be similar with POD HD. It sounds like you have put in some serious time "tone searching", so I won't challenge your findings; I also had trouble getting the HD500 to work well 'with drums' when used in Studio/Direct mode. Part of the issue, though, is that there is more to it than just the amp+guitar. For example; the POD allows you to add a microphone to the signal. I do agree with your statement, that a guitar + amp, controls set normally, and yes, you will get a useable tone rather quickly. HOWEVER, what you will NOT get so easily, is adding a microphone to that amp, and making it sound good with little to no work. In fact, you really have to work hard at mic choice, positioning, and EQ on the mixer, gain stages vs overall volume; plus the sound of the PA or recording through which that mic is routed. That process is not simple, not quick, and not instant. Which brings me to 'Studio/Direct'. It's the process of the guitar+amp+cab+mic+room all rolled up into one. Sounds like - and forgive me if you've already spent time with this - you are searching for 'combo/poweramp' or one of the non-studio direct output modes. I typically use combo/poweramp; this output mode disables the mic and room modeling. It keeps the cabinet, but removes the 'air'; which when properly connected to an amp (IE, through the FX loop RETURN, or via Line6Link to a DT amp) simulates just the amp and cab, in the room with you, no mic model, no room model, no 'air'. I can see why, if you were searching for the 'combo/poweramp' mode, and used 'studio/direct', you would likely become very, very frustrated. Switching the mic models around alone with *drastically* reshape the tone of your sound. But again, it's supposed to - it's not emulating only the amp at that point, it's also simulating the microphone response to the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I like the sound of almost any guitar+real amp combination at gig volume level. Why is it that I have a huge problem with the default sound of HD through PA? This statement perfectly sums up my previous post: take any guitar+real amp combination, at gig volume level :now put a microphone in front of the amp, send that mic to the mixer, out to the PA you are using. I guarantee you, it will not be a "one and done" process. Which microphone? Ribbon? Condensor? SM57? On axis? Off axis? I only say this, because I have struggled consistently with my band. What am I struggling with"? The other guitarists amp... He uses all analog pedals, into a Fender tweed. We have used at least 6 or 7 different mics, in different combinations. Some will sound good for his rhythm parts but not leads. Others will sound good for clean tones but not crunchy tones. My tone = easy!! I use my HD500 -> linked to a DT25, the HD500 is set to "combo/poweramp" output mode, and I am using the PRE versions of the amp models. I then run the DI out from the DT25 to the PA / mixer, and it sounds stellar! For his amp, I have tried various mics, various placements, various distances, etc. I have tried on axis, off axis, snare mix, condensor mic, Beta 57, regular 57, all kinds of mics. It's gotten better over time, but it's not easy, and I spend alot of time in ProTools trying to get his guitar amp mic to sit well in the multi-track recordings we are doing with the M20d. So, it sounds like you are trying to equate plugging a guitar into an amp with running the POD in studio/direct, and that's not an equal comparison. What you should do is: 1.) try combo/poweramp output mode - run the 1/4" out from the HD500 into the FX return of an amplifier. This will get you 99% of the way to the experience of plugging a guitar into an amp - but not mic'ing it for recording or live use. Now, put a mic in front of that amp. Get that mic to sound right... That second process is the other half of the equation, IE, Studio Direct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronda Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Ok, the "mic thing" now. I understand POD is emulating amp+cab+room+mic. I understand the mic changes the sound and may complicate matters to some extent but: 1) I wanted to test this. So I put Shure PG58 (mediocre mic) in front of a solid state amp (mediocre) and ran it out of the same PA in the same room which I'm using for POD HD testing. The sound was still usable at a gig volume level. Sure the character changed a bit, it didn't sound so in your face and heavy but I'm not really picking on this part of the sound. The frequencies were still all there in a usable mixture. Nothing like POD HD. It's not a proof, maybe the mic + amp + placement combination was just right, I don't know. You're talking about recording a guitar so that it sits well in a recorded mix - well, that's actually what I think Line 6 got right - they tweaked the sound (by cutting mids or boosting bass+treble, I'd guess) so that it sits well in a mix being played at a living room volume. When comparing default POD HD sounds with guitars in commercial recordings (using headphones at pretty loud level) I was suprised how similar it sounded and how heavily boosted the high frequencies of guitars are in the recordings. 2) For my POD HD electric guitar tones I'm using only one amp model, one cab model, one mic model, the same combination for all my patches, all with very similar settings (basicaly just varying drive and volume on the amp). It's my favorite combination given it's character in the headphones. It's not a default amp+cab+mic combination at all and it took me a while to perfect the sound in the headphones/studio monitors but I mean like 2 months, very reasonable effort. Then I tweaked the sound at a gig level (for 1.5 years, duh) and now, when I arrived at a decent way to turn my bedroom sounds into live sounds, voila, it basically works for any amp+cab+mic combination when I employ the exact same tweak. Sure, it's not perfect, but all I need then is to tweak amp EQ controls and I'm done, I have a usable live tone. Ok, of course I haven't tried all amp+cab+mic combinations but like 10 of them yes. So I'd say POD HD amp models are pretty "standardized" (so I think they did the dirty work that you, ColonelForbin, are facing when capturing an amp with a mic) but then they are processing them all (as part of the Studio/Direct output mode, supposedly) to get close to the "polished recorded sound" we know from commercial recordings. And yes, I tried the Combo/Poweramp mode running into FX return of an (mediocre) amp and the sound was fantastic. But that's not what I'm discussing here. I refused to drag an amp to every gig when everything I need is in POD so I endured the frustration with HD running into PA, kept tweaking and learning and it seems it's paying off now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Then I tweaked the sound at a gig level (for 1.5 years, duh) and now, when I arrived at a decent way to turn my bedroom sounds into live sounds, voila, it basically works for any amp+cab+mic combination when I employ the exact same tweak. Sure, it's not perfect, but all I need then is to tweak amp EQ controls and I'm done, I have a usable live tone. Ok, of course I haven't tried all amp+cab+mic combinations but like 10 of them yes. so why not share the secret sauce with the rest of us? probably save some folk a lot of headaches. A lot easier than hoping Line 6 gets the same combination you did... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjnette Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Don't forget the PA has an influence on the tone as well. How you route to the PA, XLR ideally! Brings it to mic level but it is not always the best for something that has already generated a preamp stage. If you are going from the POD via the jacks I'd recommend you go in via an insert return on the PA's Mixer Channel. This removes the added gain stage and can cause problems depending on the quality of the desk. This is probably why your mic'd amp sound is usable and the HD is not. At the PA you have mic preamp, EQ ,various sends and the two bus often with a global EQ to correct the signal from your POD HD. But it shouldn't need anything drastic. Probably a high cut and a 6k narrow boost for the lead guitar to make some room for the other guitar. usually lead plays when the vocals do not so the solo instrument can occupy this range for separation in FOH mix.. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson69978 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I will really upset the apple cart for you folks. Nobody has mentioned the fact that we are humans not machines. We hear, react, relate, and function differently from day to day depending on many immeasurable factors. I have listened to identical settings on my equipment on different days (in the same room) and sometimes I am happy with it, sometimes not. Case in point: Paul McCartney was convinced that his vocals were out of tune on the Rubber Soul album, and kept needing reassurance that they were fine. I think Air pressure and mood of the individual have a big influence on how we perceive what we hear. Ear fatigue, and physical tiredness also come into play. Just Sayin! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I will really upset the apple cart for you folks. Nobody has mentioned the fact that we are humans not machines. We hear, react, relate, and function differently from day to day depending on many immeasurable factors. I have listened to identical settings on my equipment on different days (in the same room) and sometimes I am happy with it, sometimes not. Case in point: Paul McCartney was convinced that his vocals were out of tune on the Rubber Soul album, and kept needing reassurance that they were fine. I think Air pressure and mood of the individual have a big influence on how we perceive what we hear. Ear fatigue, and physical tiredness also come into play. Just Sayin! Yup...in a nutshell, you have just explained why guitarists, as a species, are never going to be happy for more than a few fleeting moments (perhaps hours if you're lucky) at a time. Oh well, Take what you can get. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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