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I have been ruminating on how to program two DT25's (1x12 combos) with an HD500x + JTV59.

 

At first, I took the obvious route, and made them a simple stereo pair.

Sounds awesome; can be tricky to get the two levels balanced if the two amp models are radically different.

 

Mono pre FX -> two amp models, panned hard left/right -> and stereo post FX.

 

More recently, started thinking about some other ways to approach that kind of rig.

 

Another traditional setup would make one amp "dry" and the other "wet"; IE, using the Link, send one only the signal up to and including the amp model, and the other the full route of post FX.

 

I can see that the real way to get true "stereo" is have four of these things linked - and no way I am going there.

Moving just two of those 1x12 combos is heavy enough as is!

 

For anyone considering deciding between a DT25 1x12 combo vs the head and cab, these little combos are plenty heavy.

I can totally understand why folks opt to split them up into head and cab for the weight alone!

 

Anyway, I digress. SO yeah, as I think I recall, Stevie Ray Vaughan used to do a wet / dry thing, blending his amps like that.

 

Another idea I had was since the Variax can split the models and mags, would be cool to send one to each amp; which could occur within the stereo idea, or the wet dry idea, or some combination of the two.

 

Also considering how to incorporate that Zoom pedal that Radatats clued me into; that pedal is awesome, very useful for adding an extra FS, reducing DSP usage, and it's stereo.

 

I am thinking with two discrete amp models, into two DT25's it's more akin to "dual mono" than it is to actual stereo.

As dual mono, I would lean toward loading all the FX into the pre-mixer spot. I suppose that would also free up the post-mixer slot for the stereo FX loop -> to the Zoom pedal, for chorus, reverbs, delays, EQ, etc. -> then out to the amps.

 

Thinking about it as dual mono rather than stereo made for some interesting ideas. Panning is better, just send them both center. If I do the wet/dry thing, that would be pretty cool too, as would the split of variax mags / variax models. I know folks have done that alot with Studio/Direct, curious to hear from the DT crowd, especially those crazy enough to buy more than one of these amps!

 

So yeah, that's where my head is. Band is working in studio for the last three Tuesdays', last night went well, was all the other guitarist laying down his acoustic guitar parts with a really nice Taylor. My parts are still a few weeks out, so I have some time to work on my playing, and get my tones dialed in. Just had my amps retubed with JJ's so I will keep a log of how those perform; hoping I don't have to haul them back to the shop and put EH's back in.... Dropped off my strat and JTV last week, those should be ready tomorrow.

 

Looking like a weekend spent working and playing guitar is in my immediate future!

 

Cheers, ya'all,

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Seems like it should be pretty easy with the L6Link gear! Reading various articles on how people have done things using traditional gear. Eddie Van Halen, Jimmy Herring, Stevie Ray Vaughan. Often tricks involve doing subtle pitch shifting on one signal; or a slight delay.

 

What's cool about using the 'Dream Rig', is that how you happen to route everything can be saved on a per-patch basis, or at least, that's my understanding. So one patch could be single amp model, full stereo. Another patch could be dual mono / wet-dry, with two amp models, using different inputs from a single JTV guitar. Another patch could be some combination of those.

 

Right now, I am most focused on how to get a useful stereo patch concept going.

 

Van Halen - wet / dry

 

Van Halen  - premiere guitar magazine

 

Pete Thorn - wet / dry (* Pete comments that he just runs standard stereo now)

 

Article Link (Stevie Ray Vaughan, equipment info)

 

Wet / Dry rigs

 

Multi-Amp rigs

 

CAE wet/dry system

 

Gibson - How to create a wet /dry rig

 

GearPage - wet /dry

 

Rig Talk - wet / dry

 

L6 Forum -wet /dry thread

 

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I am going to make test patches for a few specific ideas:

 

1.) Split Variax Mags / Models into two amp models; discrete FX on each channel, stereo FX loop through Zoom pedal, stereo DT25's using L6Link:

 

PATH 1: JTV mags -> FX#1 (wah) -> FX#2 (comp) -> FX#3 (drive/boost/distortion) -> Amp model A -> panned Left -> (FX#8) STEREO FX LOOP

PATH 2: JTV models -> FX#5 (wah) -> FX#6 (comp) -> FX#7(drive/boost/distortion) -> Amp model B -> panned Right -> (FX#8) STEREO FX LOOP

 

That basically leaves me with one EXP to control both wahs; and the other EXP to control the volume send to the FX loop.

In terms of how to program the FS settings to correspond to the FX effects, I would basically just assign the FS 1-4 to the compressors, boosts, drives, distortions, etc - all the "pre" amp model effects.

 

It also leaves me with one more effect slot, not sure where / if I would use it - would have to be a stereo effect if it occurred after the mixer block. It would also require an additional FS, either by way of going to FS 1-8 mode, or by doubling up the two comps to a single FS switch or something along those lines.

 

I was thinking about the best way to do volume pedal, and I realized I don't need to waste two FX blocks on volume pedals; I should be able to set the FX loop send volume parameter to the EXP pedal? I presume/hope that works and will retain the stereo "split" between the inputs and amp models.

 

Using Radatats Zoom pedal idea in the FX loop; it has a stereo noise gate, and some cool stereo delays, choruses, etc.

 

That's idea #1: split the Variax into two signals, into two amp models, each with their own pre amp model effects, and panned in stereo, so they each go to their own DT amp, with any stereo effects from the Zoom.

 

Reasonably complex, but overall relatively simple, due to the divided inputs / divided effects / two channel setup.

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Sounds fun! The only signal split I have tried is sending the coral sitar to a powered speaker while sending the mags to the DT. It was a cool way to blend sounds.

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2.) Wet / Dry:  with dry guitar signal capture for studio recording purposes


 


Couple of different ideas on how to approach this concept. Mostly thinking in terms of using this routing in recording studio.


 


-capture a completely dry copy of both of the guitar signals; plug the JTV 1/4" into an outboard DI box and run it direct to the mixer. Then using VDI to split the variax mags and models, use the FX loop before the mag side of the amp model paths, at 50% mix to send the mags only to a DI box, to the recording mixer. (50% to allow send with no return signal) In theory that should give me two usable "dry" tracks; one of the mags, one of the models. 


 


Then, routing those two sources to the two amp models; create a "dry side" and a "wet side". Since the inputs are split in order to achieve the dry outs; probably make the mags the "Dry" amp model only side. Not running anything in stereo in this case, no using the Zoom is I am using the FX loop for signal capture; though I guess I would still need to pan left/right so the wet side doesn't get the dry side and vice versa.


 


Wet side can get whatever effects; should be pretty easy. Would likely do similar / same amp models in both channels, though that's not crucial. More in terms of thinking along the lines of actual wet/dry, where the wet part just refers to adding stereo "post" effects to the primary amp signal and then running them into their own cabinets. If I actually wanted to run wet/dry/wet, I'd *only* need one more DT amp.... Hey now ;) Just kidding!!! Though it would be cool to get a DT25 head+cab and run that in the center as the "dry" amp with the two combos in stereo.


 


But I digress.. My back disagrees with any idea that involves lifting more weight, so in this case "less is more"


 


So that's idea#2: primary used to split out dry signals for studio recording, secondary purpose to split out two amps, one with effects, one without. Dry/Wet isn't precise, as typical "dry" amps still get wah, comp, drive, eq, etc.


 


This would be:


-variax mags ->amp model 1; link out amp only (left) to DT#1;


-variax models -> pre effects ->amp model 2 ->post effects ->link out (right) to DT#2


 


What's easy / cool about using the DT's is they have a decent XLR out, so you don't have to have the amps in isolateds rooms, unless you really really need/want to mic them. I might work on some parts until they get close, then if I am not digging the XLR direct sends, try mic'ing 'em up.


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Sounds fun! The only signal split I have tried is sending the coral sitar to a powered speaker while sending the mags to the DT. It was a cool way to blend sounds.

 

Yeah, I used to get *crazy* with signal splitting. I simplified, by removing three pedalboards from the equation... I used to run the 1/4" from the JTV to an all-analog pedalboard, into the HD500 guitar in, to one amp model channel, while using the VDI mags to a second amp model channel, both panned in stereo. Then I ran the FX loop out in stereo to an M13; and I also had a dry guitar signal going to a VoiceLive 3 to do pitch tracking.

 

I sold the M13 and the VoiceLive 3; my buddy that jams with me in my band is borrowing the analog pedals and board. I am keeping that board (mostly Keeley pedals) don't miss the M13 and the VoiceLive as much - though they are both excellent pieces of gear, and for the right person, in the right rig, outstanding. I just was making a mess of things trying to sing through that stuff, and too many cables going too many places. Took way too much time to plug it all in! Also was stupid heavy to move. And took up too much floor space. Tap dance, I was doing, and not very well.

 

I realized I prefer the VDI connection, because it offers so many cool features, from signal splitting to effect controllers.

 

The ability to split the variax mags and models is an often overlooked, insanely powerful tool, if you use it correctly. It can be a total PITA, getting levels balanced, not easy. Though it's cool and fun to layer those different sounds together. If you are using alternate tunings, not a great option; you would have to make different patches for the alt tunings, though since the VDI is the primary connection, that's as easy as changing to a different patch, since those input settings can be either global OR on a per-patch basis.

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3.) Wet / Dry for stage and live use:

 

This is getting back to more like emulating the traditional wet/dry and doubling ideas I lifted from Van Halen, Jimmy Herring, Stevie Ray Vaughan.

 

Here's an interesting tidbit- when Jimmy Herring was playing with Furthur and doing the Grateful Dead tunes, he set up his monitor mix using Ernie Ball volume pedals on stage so he could control the individual other musicans levels in his monitor mix, on the fly. He realized he would need to adjust what he was hearing based on who he was interacting with. Cool, but complicated! He also had the same volume pedal set up to control his on-stage wet/dry blend, which I thought was pretty cool.

 

So much of the POD 'studio/direct' experience revolves around controlling elements that would typically be controlled by the soundguy. I tend to like the DT linked experience more, because it's fewer variables for me to worry about / tweak / adjust, and get stuck thinking about rather than playing.

 

Reading in particular about Van Halen and SRV, they both employed similar ideas, using different methods. Van Halen used pitch shifting, just a few cents tuned apart to make the tone sound fatter and bigger. SRV used a delay pedal set to just barely offset the time of one cabinet in relation to another.

 

In that sense, the wet/dry thing should really be ONE amp model, and the wet/dry split should occur by use of the L6Link programming.

Meaning, one DT gets the full summed left/right signal at the end of the HD500, and the other amp gets the pre-mixer block amp model only.

If you are using three DT amps, the center amp could be the dry "pre mixer block" signal, and the other two could be the "wet" left / right stereo sound.

 

In that sense, it's the easiest rig to set in the patches; you don't need to program intricate split inputs, or match dual amp models. It siphons off the signal before the "wet" effects. If you are using three DT amps, the center amp could be the dry "pre mixer block" signal, and the other two could be the "wet" left / right stereo sound.

 

So, I guess I don't really know how I would approach wet/dry. The easiest way to do it is one amp model, two DT amps, set up the patch like normal with pre amp model effects, and post amp model effects, send one amp the dry, send the other the wet and done. With the DT's in link mode, with only one amp model, straight forward.

 

I still like the dual amp model idea; WITHOUT the split inputs. I think that makes it somewhat easier to program. Using the standard input routing would enable the use of alternate tunings, and would make programming Variax model changes simpler as well. Alternate tunings + mags, not good - unless the detuning is so slight that it is used for a doubling effect, and there should be easier way to do it.

 

With the single input, the pre-amp model effects could all remain mono, no need to retain split paths from the start, just split them into the two amp models. The thing to keep in mind there, is that regardless of the panning or what the final signal on the wet side is comprised of, the power amp typology of the actual DT will still sync to whatever amp model is in that path.

 

So, you could merge the two preamp signals into the wet portion of the signal, but they would still be paired only with the one amp models sync setting. Depending on personal preference, this setup might benefit from using the FS1-8 mode.

 

So, for idea# 3, I guess a sample layout would be something like this:

 

JTV -> FX#1 -> FX#2 ->FX#3 ->FX#4 -> AMP MODELS -> FX#5 -> FX#6 ->FX#7 ->FX#8

 

outputs:

DT#1 = "dry signal" of amp model A (includes dry FX 1-4, excludes wet FX 5-8

DT#2 = "wet signal"  L+R, or just Left, or just Right (includes dry FX1-4 + mono summed wet effects 5-8)

 

and if you *really* still want stereo, then pan the two amp models hard left/right:

 

DT#1 = "dry signal" of amp models A+B (includes dry FX 1-4, excludes wet FX 5-8)

DT#2 = "wet signal" left  (includes dry FX1-4 + stereo wet effects 5-8)

DT#3 = "wet signal" right (includes dry FX1-4 + stereo wet effects 5-8)

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Gonna work on this tonight!!! Super stoked. Got both guitars (US Strat and JTV59) back from the shop, new strings and a setup. Got both DT25's back from the same shop, new tubes and rebias. Fingers crossed everything is all good to go, and the new JJ's tubes don't cause me any of the "not Electro-Harmonix brand tube-changing-blues"... :)

 

Got the new HD500x to dial in, get some new patches going on. Stoked!!

 

On a side note, I just realized this morning how stoked I am to still have the old HD500 and the pair of L2ts, so now I can come up with some wild stereo bass patches!! And with the new model packs, those extra bass amp models are going to be sweeeett!!!!

 

Bass looper jams.. Opens up some really interesting options.

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Quick update: I got some really cool tones doing JTV split inputs to two amp models, to the two DT2's, DT XLR outs to the M20d, recorded them as stereo. Listened back through L2t's.

 

Because of how I programmed it, I used the FS1-8 mode. Set variax mags to amp 1, variax models to amp 2. Used same amp model with both. Just tweaked the mags mixer level to balance with models level.

 

Set up front row of FS to do comps and drives. Fs5-6 for comp & drive before amp model A, and Fs7-8 for comp & drive before amp model B.

 

Did one version with dual volume pedals, then tried dual wah. Way cool! I set them both to use the external EXP pedal, and set them to toggle on/off using Fs2&3.

 

Used Fs1 for FX on/off and Fs4 for stereo or ping pong delay.

 

The Hiwatt sounded really cool like this.

Parallel wah can sound stellar, since one amp gets wah, one doesn't.

 

I need to spend some more time pairing amps, see which sound best with models and mags side by side.

 

Limits some options- using a stereo outboard FX in the FX loop expands some post options.

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ColonelForbin, that sounds like a heckuva rig!  You've really thought it through.

 

It took me a while tackling different configurations with just the HD500, with other amps, PA speakers, keyboard amps, etc. Some times I was happy with tones, other times it was a struggle. I "made it work" from 2010-2014; Adding the DT25 last January simplified a *LOT* for me. It essentially gives you "guitar amp" style live monitoring, while adding in the direct mic level XLR send. Adding the second DT this January was just an exercise in patience! I had wanted another one soon as I got the first, and realized what it could do - but it took me 8 months to pay the thing off, and I bought a JTV59 around the same time, which I also did as 8 payments.. NAMM 2015 Winter came around, and I didn't see anything that was going to immediately eclipse the rig I was building, so I figured might as well expand the pallette a little bit.

 

It's a bit of a price jump, to go from the $500 HD500 unit, which can already do dual amp models, stereo XLR out, etc. But I realized that was only part of the equation- and for me, with my old ears, and some basic hearing loss, it helped to have something in the traditional amp in room vibe - I don't use in ears, we have decent floor monitors, but that also was a struggle for me, since my signal was blended with everything else that had to get monitored, and it came down to other people having more sensitive ears than me - for me to play well, gotta hear myself.

 

The best thing, is get yourself playing music, rather than playing with settings, knobs, dials, and crouched in front of a pedalboard, or adjusting settings on a mixer, or asking someone to turn you up in the monitor mix. Especially live.. Very un-nerving.

 

I am still tempted to add a pair of the 1x12 extension cabs, to go with the dual DT "mini stacks", but not in any hurry to do that. I like them up on the amp stands, makes the top panel controls quite accessible. I like the lower watt per combo, because you can drive the tubes and get authentic tube power saturation / breakup at reasonable volumes. 

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