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Live vs. Studio


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Hey everyone.   I've had my HD Pro X now since mid-december, and finally have adjusted to the GUI, unit interface, and have done a moderate amount of walking through creating patches via youtube tutorials, line 6 tutorials, and forum reading.  

 

I've created some rather beautiful patches, which sound utterly stunning through the home DAW and on recordings.

 

But when I go to practice with my bands (one a jam band, the other a gigging cover band), the unit just sounds terrible.

 

First, I never know what volume the patches will be in relation to each other.. I fire it up, spend half the night tinkering with patch volumes as we play, don't touch them and a week later, go back to rehearsal and run through the exact same songs, and volumes are just all over the place again.  This is especially frustrating with my lead patch which one week isn't loud enough to cut though anything, and then the next is so loud that you literally can't hear the rest of the band, causing me to immediate have to stop and back off.  In my cover band, the other guitarist uses a Vetta and has the exact same problems with his patch volumes.  Is this a known issue??  How can I overcome it?

 

Now, with band rehearsals and playing gigs- the patches simply don't cut the mix.. I described it to a friend as "Just noise.. no definition or tone, but like a wave of static slamming into the rest of the band".  I can keep turning up my volume, but I'm just not getting a clear defined tone on any patch or model.  This is doubly true with my attempts at a solo patch.. I have downloaded almost every user-created patch on this site and few sound as good as my own, and again.. these sound great through headphones (direct out of the unit) and on both my home studio mixer and DAW on the PC.  I've tried and tried to adjust the tones while playing "live" but just can't find anything that cuts the mix and defines my playing.

 

 

So.. I've decided to bite the bullet and ditch my SS rack amp, and go with a tube head, or maybe a twin reverb or Blues Jr or maybe even an orange setup.  I loathe having to drop another 1.5-2k on a good tube amp (and some distinct dist pedals), but I would keep the POD in the mix as an effects loop processer and nix any modeling in the patches I guess.  

 

I'm hoping someone here can give me the 'magic bullet' answer and save me the trouble, but as it stands, my live sound just sucks, it's awful, and I'm not a tone snob by any measure.  I formerly used a digitech GSP1101 and it was good enough live.. why isn't this HD PRO X?

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It is a complaint that you set up on the headphones or monitors and when thru a PA or on stage amps it doesn't cut it.

 

Actually it is a testament to how good the amp modelling is, 

 

It is well known the POD HDs dont translate patches that well. And many have cast it prematurely aside.

 

You got a bunch of set lists; 

Even different guitars/pickups affect the tone and feel.

 

Don't loose heart,

 

Copy your patches to a new set list. Switch off all FX and concentrate on the amp model and get it right at the rehearsal/live space and save these in the new setlist.

 

You also have menu options as well as configurations onboard. on the HD500 there are toggle switches for differing setups.

 

All part of getting to know your device

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This has been discussed many times on many forums. It's not a problem unique to POD products - most people using amp modelers have similar problems. There are many reasons. Most are all based on tweaking out of context - headphones instead of speakers, low volume instead of gig-level volumes, by yourself instead of with the whole band, controlled situation instead of the chaos of playing live, long tweak times instead of having to do everything in a hurry. All these accumulate to fool us into thinking that something that sounds big, fat, wide, swirly, whooshie, big ambience, lots of sustain, etc. by yourself at low volume will be even better turned up and in the mix with the rest of the band. But the opposite is often true. Less is more when you're playing live with a whole band.

 

Here's some possible guidelines/things to try:

  1. start simple focusing on the amp, speakers and mic before adding anything else
  2. Keep the cabinet resonance low or at 0. Pick the microphone carefully. Mics that sound bright and full by yourself can sound fizzy and icy when turned up and with the rest of the band.
  3. do all the tweaking with a backing track, hopefully made from your band, but something similar will do
  4. start the adjustments at low volume so you don't tire/kill your ears, but check periodically at the volume closest to gig level you can get
  5. adjust patches on the same FRFR amp you're using for live playing. Headphones or studio monitors are likely to sound a lot different then the PA
  6. If you have to use a guitar amp with the POD, try to use a power amp input or effects return and turn off cabinet emulation in the POD. Going into the front of a guitar amp will be challenging, and patches will sound entirely different than in your headphones.
  7. when adding effects, be conservative, keep mixes pretty dry. Effects can add a lot of mud into a mix making your guitar become indistinct. 
  8. Don't overdo the gain/distortion. These can kill definition and the tone of your actual guitar. 
  9. Check your gain staging between effects. Bypass all effects and add them back in one at a time making sure no effect is so hot its overdriving the input of the next effect in the chain. I like to keep effects at mostly unity gain - they're the same volume on or off. There are exceptions, when I use something like the compressor or vintage pre to intentionally drive the amp harder. This works good for Fender amps which are naturally lower gain, but should be unnecessary for high gain amps. Use the drive control instead
  10. Use a dB meeter (or audio tools on your phone) to set the channel volume so that you get the intended volume differences between patches.
  11. Once you get some patches you like in a live setting, use them as reference patches for tweaking at home. Once you know what these good patches sound like at home and through headphones, you'll have a good reference point for building other patches. Switch back and forth between the patch you're working on and the reference patch and think about the differences and how they translate to the song or what you're trying to achieve.
  12. Make sure you're not clipping the input of you FRFR amp.
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Hey thanks for the replies.  I downloaded and read through the advanced guide last night after posting this.  I figure there's no way it can't sound good live.  And the one thing that really got my attention was the global settings, specifically the output settings.  I'm playing through a power-amp into a cab, and it was set to a direct digital connection (out of the box I guess).  So I was supposed to be at the studio tonight testing it out on a random jam, but living in the northeast this time of year.. snowstorm after snowstorm ugh.  I live in an apartment, so playing through my cab at any real volume is not going to fly lol.

 

I did set up my patches in the headphones, and yes, recording digitally was beautiful, and this isn't too different than an issue I had with my GSP back in the day.  So.. I will also break down basic patches to just amps only and tweak in the live environment.  Amsdenj, I will come back and go down your list, I like the DB meter idea, I remember reading about an app that did that a long time ago, and then forgot all about it.

 

This is going to be interesting :)

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Just a quick reply, but I've notice the same thing happens with amps and stompboxes, not just modeling gear.  Obviously different rooms, sound guys, audiences, band members, etc. are going to impact your guitar's sound in a mix whether you use a POD or any other piece of equipment.  Amsdenj gave some great tips above.  I'd just like to reinforce the idea that less is more, especially in terms of distortion.  For me, nothing seems to get me lost in a mix more than adding more distortion.  Whereas going to a cleaner sound and using the bridge pickup will cut through a mix like butter.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This discussion has beed a big help - I too am having allot of thee issues - recently purchased POD HD500X - I play a strat with Texas Specials through a new  Fender Twin.  My band plays new country and classic rock so I need a wide range of tones from a clean bell type tone with slap back to a overdrive tone. My 2nd amp is a Old Line 6 XL that is set up perfectly - did not know it would be this difficult to mimic those tones

 

I need a Line 6 expert who lives in Dallas TX that I could assist me with setting up my rig? of course for some cash

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I have my Live banks that are basically copied from Studio banks, but with minor tweaks according to the need on each individual preset.  When I'm done, my live presets need no more tweaking.  My studio ones work for the studio in the same fashion.

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Just a few things to add:

 

 

  1. Tone starts with the song and the context. Listen to what’s going on around you and see what’s required to fit in, complement and add to the sound, not pull it in a different or odd direction. Think about dynamics and motion.
  2. Next comes the instrument itself. Make sure it is a good instrument, is properly setup, has a good set of strings,  and is well maintained.
    1. Pick the right pickup for the song, see above
    2. Its really difficult to set a single amp tone that works for all pickup combinations. Set the tone for the neck pickup, then use the tone control on the guitar to adjust the tone for the bridge pickup to avoid having it be too bright or uncomfortable
    3. Use the heaviest strings you can get away with. Heavy strings last longer, don’t break as easily, are easier to control when bending to get the right pitch and have better tone.
    4. Make sure you’re in tune - tune up, not down, stretch the strings to get out the slack so they don’t go out of tune. Make sure the instrument is at room temperature for final tuning.
  3. Believe it or not, this one is one of the most important parts of tone - pick the right pick. Thin picks make it easy to pick fast, but they’re too flexible to control string dynamics. Heavy picks have a wider dynamic range and sound warmer. Picks shouldn’t be too sharp. The rounder the point, the warmer the sound. Find picks that have beveled sides so they glide over the strings better. Use a good pick material. Wegen picks are very good. Try turning picks on their side to get different tones from the same pick. Use hybrid picking and picking with your fingers for more tone options. Don’t pick too hard, turn the amp up and pick softer, you’ll have more control, better tone, and won’t introduce a lot of fret buzz.
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Use the heaviest strings you can get away with. Heavy strings last longer, don’t break as easily, are easier to control when bending to get the right pitch and have better tone.

 

 

Amen. I play 11's, and can recall breaking exactly one string in the last decade or so...and yes, I play daily and bend a lot. Also does wonders for tuning stability. I think this is a HUGE variable that many players overlook. Big strings = big tone (yeah, yeah Billy Gibbons supposedly plays on 7's...personally I don't buy it, but whatever, maybe he does. There's an exception to every rule). Lotsa guys ignore the heavier guages, I suspect mostly because they assume that they'll have difficulty bending strings. But if you work your way up, you'll adjust, and hand strength will increase...it's just like going to the gym (or so I'm told, never actually seen one in person... :P ). Just don't try jumping from 9's to 11's...

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The problem is not really the modelling, it is how we use it and what we expect from it. A great tube amp does not sound the same recorded as it does live. Tomes of material has been written on how to try to get a good recorded sound, but with a decent tube amp almost anyone can do it live.  So why would we expect the Modellers to be different? They are just a digital repsentation of those old amps we know and love. 

 

Even with the old gear, if we attempted to do things live we do now all the time with the POD, would we have the same issues?  So say I got a Fender Dexlue and Marshall Plexi. I hook up my guitar and some pedals to the Fender and get a wonderful tone. Then I hook up to the Marshall and get a great gain type tone.  I'm happy, I show up a Rehersal. So I play the Fender on one song and then switch to the Cranked Marshall on the next. Would I expect the volume levels to comparable? Nope the amps are completley differntly.  But we do this exact thing with the Modellers. 

 

The point being recorded tones and live tones are not the same medium therefore you have to build and approach them differently. A full band vs. a single guitar is differnet and you have to appraoch them differnetly.  You have recevied some great tips on how to accomplish that above. In the end Modellers like the POD are wonderful tools but they do take work and understanding of how amps and effects react to get the most from them without them driving you insane. That's is why as much as I love my Line6 gear, I don't think it fits everyone either.

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Just a few things to add:

 

 

  1. Tone starts with the song and the context. Listen to what’s going on around you and see what’s required to fit in, complement and add to the sound, not pull it in a different or odd direction. Think about dynamics and motion.
  2. Next comes the instrument itself. Make sure it is a good instrument, is properly setup, has a good set of strings,  and is well maintained.
    1. Pick the right pickup for the song, see above
    2. Its really difficult to set a single amp tone that works for all pickup combinations. Set the tone for the neck pickup, then use the tone control on the guitar to adjust the tone for the bridge pickup to avoid having it be too bright or uncomfortable
    3. Use the heaviest strings you can get away with. Heavy strings last longer, don’t break as easily, are easier to control when bending to get the right pitch and have better tone.
    4. Make sure you’re in tune - tune up, not down, stretch the strings to get out the slack so they don’t go out of tune. Make sure the instrument is at room temperature for final tuning.
  3. Believe it or not, this one is one of the most important parts of tone - pick the right pick. Thin picks make it easy to pick fast, but they’re too flexible to control string dynamics. Heavy picks have a wider dynamic range and sound warmer. Picks shouldn’t be too sharp. The rounder the point, the warmer the sound. Find picks that have beveled sides so they glide over the strings better. Use a good pick material. Wegen picks are very good. Try turning picks on their side to get different tones from the same pick. Use hybrid picking and picking with your fingers for more tone options. Don’t pick too hard, turn the amp up and pick softer, you’ll have more control, better tone, and won’t introduce a lot of fret buzz.

 

 

A lot of good tips and advice.

 

I used to use the blue dunlop tortex 1mm picks but have since switched to dunlop ultex sharp 1.14mm for guitar and 1.40mm for bass. The ultex picks are awesome. They produce a unique attack sound and are smooth yet grippy, and last quite a long time. I believe ultex is the material Steve Vai uses for his picks.

 

How do people that live in constantly arid environments deal with cuts to the fingertips? We've had a long stretch of cold dry weather in Wisconsin recently where the humidity, indoors, was a constant 28%, and several cuts on my fingertips just refused to heal properly. Makes it almost impossible to play high energy licks with any feeling.

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Amen. I play 11's, and can recall breaking exactly one string in the last decade or so...and yes, I play daily and bend a lot. Also does wonders for tuning stability. I think this is a HUGE variable that many players overlook. Big strings = big tone (yeah, yeah Billy Gibbons supposedly plays on 7's...personally I don't buy it, but whatever, maybe he does. There's an exception to every rule). Lotsa guys ignore the heavier guages, I suspect mostly because they assume that they'll have difficulty bending strings. But if you work your way up, you'll adjust, and hand strength will increase...it's just like going to the gym (or so I'm told, never actually seen one in person... :P ). Just don't try jumping from 9's to 11's...

 

How can you only break one string a decade?!?

 

I use 10s and am lucky if I can go one session of playing without breaking at least one string, usually high E or B. And to make matters worse, I've broken 6 tremolo arms in the past 3 years.

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Just a few things to add:

 

 

Use the heaviest strings you can get away with. Heavy strings last longer, don’t break as easily, are easier to control when bending to get the right pitch and have better tone.

 

Believe it or not, this one is one of the most important parts of tone - pick the right pick. Thin picks make it easy to pick fast, but they’re too flexible to control string dynamics. Heavy picks have a wider dynamic range and sound warmer. Picks shouldn’t be too sharp. The rounder the point, the warmer the sound. Find picks that have beveled sides so they glide over the strings better. Use a good pick material. Wegen picks are very good. Try turning picks on their side to get different tones from the same pick. Use hybrid picking and picking with your fingers for more tone options. Don’t pick too hard, turn the amp up and pick softer, you’ll have more control, better tone, and won’t introduce a lot of fret buzz.

 

 

+ 1 with the others to a certian extent, depending on the sytle of music you play.  Heavier strings have more mass therefore ring out more indeed. But as some have pointed out Billy Gibbons supposely uses 7. Many of the shreders supposely use 9s. So I think it depends a lot on the type of music you are playing. but I would agree with this as a general statement.  Bigger string do have more inhert "tone".  I use 10s and I find it nice balance and fit my current sytlistic choices.  I have used up to 12s in the past, while the sounded great, they do affect they way you play.

 

On the pics I actually find thin pics to be slower. They don't have much impact on the strings and bend way to much to use alternate picking or sweeping very well. Again this can be stylict choice. If you want to shred you will almost have ot have a stiff pic, which usually means at least fairly thick. And I agree the tone differences can be huge. But for nothing but chords on say an acoustic part a thin pic produces melted sound that can not be duplicated with heavy pics. Not a sytle I use so I don't own any and personally I don't recommend anything below a Medium.  You just can grab single note with them well.

 

Sharp pics I find faster because of the very narrow contact with the stiring. But they have "click" type of sound I don't like. Lately I'm into Heavy 1.5mm Nylon pics. They seem to have warm type of tone. I used the ones with grips just for the simple purpose that on some stuff I like the turn the pic around and actually scrap the grip part across the string. It's odd type of sound the ends up muddying the tone is a cool way. Again that is a stylist choice that I only use on certian songs or just parts of songs. 

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How can you only break one string a decade?!?

 

I use 10s and am lucky if I can go one session of playing without breaking at least one string, usually high E or B. And to make matters worse, I've broken 6 tremolo arms in the past 3 years.

Well, if you're snapping tremelo arms every 6 months or so, its borderline miraculous that any of your strings survive the first strummed chord, lol. I think you and I have very different technical approaches...nothing wrong with aggressive playing of course, but i've never managed to bust a tremolo arm...lol.

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How do people that live in constantly arid environments deal with cuts to the fingertips? We've had a long stretch of cold dry weather in Wisconsin recently where the humidity, indoors, was a constant 28%, and several cuts on my fingertips just refused to heal properly. Makes it almost impossible to play high energy licks with any feeling.

 

If your house doesn't have environment control, then you should at least have a humidifier where your guitars and amps are. 

It protects the wood from drying, and also from static electricity. 

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I don't break strings, I change strings.

I use 9's, although, a couple of my guitars do feel better with 10's.

And, mathematically, 11's tuned to C# should have roughly the same tension as 9's tuned to E.

 

 

Trem bars, I have broken a few, and bent quite a good bit. That was in the 80's during the acrobatic years. I was getting my guitars for free, so I did a lot of stuff that resulted in damaged units for the sake of show business. 

Today, the only trem bars that are breaking are the ones that come on 'specials' or those $5 fakes that are made in China that people order off of Amazon.  

 

 

 

And picks: 

Thin picks allow a player to be sloppy. 

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If your house doesn't have environment control, then you should at least have a humidifier where your guitars and amps are. 

It protects the wood from drying, and also from static electricity. 

 

Unfortunately, only temp control, no moisture. I do treat the fretboards once or twice a year with peavey lemon oil though.

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The important thing is to appreciate that recorded sounds and live sounds are 2 different beasts, once you resign yourself to that life becomes easier.

We recorded a song recently where I play a riff through a modelled ac30 sounds amazing live, has done for the last 6 months, so we record the song and my guitar sounds terrible, powerless and dull, I had to tweak it for about an hour and add 3 or 4 effects to get my "live" sound through the cans, the end result is that both guitar patches sound identical when in their intended setting be it live or recorded but the patches are very different. I spent years trying to program live patches at home using headphones and it just never really worked, I got lucky a few times with my old pod XT live but I never got even just one patch close on the hd500

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Regarding Live vs. Studio there are two key points to consider: the overall levels, and the interaction between the sound and the guitar itself.

 

Our ears respond differently to louder sounds, being more sensitive to lows and highs the louder the sound. So if you want something quiet to "sound" loud, you'll probably need to scoop the mids a bit. Of course louder sounds create a different emotional response too - evolution makes us pay more attention to something loud because it might represent greater danger.

 

The second point might be even more significant though. When you're playing live through speakers in a room, the guitar is hearing the same sounds you're hearing. The amplified sound of the guitar, as well as the sound of the rest of the band, creates sympathetic vibrations of the strings, causing physical acoustic sustain and even feedback if the sound is loud enough and you're close enough to the amp. This completely changes how the guitar sounds and feels.

 

You can't get this feedback in a studio through headphones because the guitar isn't hearing any of the sound you're hearing. I think this is why we struggle with getting good recoded tracks with digital modelers, or using re-amping in a DAW - the guitar isn't interacting with the sound as its being recorded.

 

If you mic a guitar cabinet in the studio, then the guitar does here the output of the amp, even if you're listening to the mix through headphones. So you'll still get some of the feel and feedback of live. 

 

If you want to recreate this in the studio through headphones, you might come close by using a compressor a the end of the guitar signal chain, or better yet, in the DAW itself while you're recording. You need to hear and interact with this compression while tracking as it effects how the instrument sounds and feels. You may want to capture the dry guitar track too so you can re-amp or change the amount of compression later in the mix.

 

But perhaps a better idea is to record all your guitar parts without headphones in a room using good studio monitors. Play the mix and the guitar loud enough to get some interaction between the guitar and the speakers and get a live feel. This will then be captured in the DAW, even in the raw dry track, and will work fine for re-amping.

 

The inverse of these effects is also true. If you scoop the mids, add a lot of stereo ambient effects (reverb, delay, pitch shifting, chorus, etc.), and  use a lot of compression to hype the studio sound so it sounds and feels more live, this will probably sound terrible live. Its because the hyped sound is hyped again in the live setting and this won't scale well.

 

In summary, I don't think it is possible or desirable to attempt to use a single patch for these very different contexts. Once we give up trying, getting good tones on the HD500X might be a lot easier.

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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but your direct patches will not translate well to an amp. You have to completely redo your patches. I think the sounds are there for both methods but you have to create different sets of patches for going direct and using your amp.

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How do people that live in constantly arid environments deal with cuts to the fingertips? We've had a long stretch of cold dry weather in Wisconsin recently where the humidity, indoors, was a constant 28%, and several cuts on my fingertips just refused to heal properly. Makes it almost impossible to play high energy licks with any feeling.

 

Stevie Ray Vaughn used superglue which was originally developed for medical use.

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I use lots of hand lotion when I'm not playing my guitar, and I live in a very humid environment (Seattle area), but I have a pellet stove that I heat my home with, and I work in an office, and I have a luthier shop in my garage.  Still got lots going on that can suck the moisture out of your hands.  Hand lotion hits my hands a few times a day.  My finger tips get harder with continuous playing, and I've been playing for 42 years (I'm 49 now) but they just don't callous, they are just tougher/stronger on the tips.

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I use lots of hand lotion when I'm not playing my guitar, and I live in a very humid environment (Seattle area), but I have a pellet stove that I heat my home with, and I work in an office, and I have a luthier shop in my garage.  Still got lots going on that can suck the moisture out of your hands.  Hand lotion hits my hands a few times a day.  My finger tips get harder with continuous playing, and I've been playing for 42 years (I'm 49 now) but they just don't callous, they are just tougher/stronger on the tips.

 

Very similar situations for years playing and age. I tried the lotion, or in my case healing ointment (neosporin) with a band-aid when not playing. It helped a little. But with the cold and dry environment - thankfully now over - it just wasn't enough.

 

As a couple of others have said, I need to get a humidifier if I don't want it to happen next winter. But maybe next winter won't have such unusual cold-spell lengths.

 

I mostly wondered how people that live in environments that are permanently dry deal with that.

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How can you only break one string a decade?!?

 

I use 10s and am lucky if I can go one session of playing without breaking at least one string, usually high E or B. And to make matters worse, I've broken 6 tremolo arms in the past 3 years.

 

Erm....  :huh:

 

I play with quite an aggressive right hand technique, with 2mm picks. I change my strings fairly often, depending on the amount of band practices/gigs I'm doing; anything from twice a month to every six months if I'm not really playing it much. The last string I broke was whilst I fitted a new set, where I unwound the new string out of the packet carelessly and it snapped as I brought it up to tune. That was the first time I'd broken a string in about 8 years so I was quite shocked by it. 

 

 

I use different gauge strings on different guitars, so it's not down to that and I've used Ernie Ball and D'Addario without any issue for years. If I was breaking strings routinely, I'd question whether the guitar saddles were defective or whether my technique required some attention. I'm not having a dig, if you play so aggressively that you keep breaking strings then that's down to you but when I saw Steve Vai throwing around some poor Ibanez and throwing it in the air by it's trem bar, he didn't break a string! :)

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I use different gauge strings on different guitars, so it's not down to that and I've used Ernie Ball and D'Addario without any issue for years. If I was breaking strings routinely, I'd question whether the guitar saddles were defective or whether my technique required some attention. I'm not having a dig, if you play so aggressively that you keep breaking strings then that's down to you but when I saw Steve Vai throwing around some poor Ibanez and throwing it in the air by it's trem bar, he didn't break a string! :)

 

I doubt it's the saddles. The guitar, with edge tremolo, is fairly new, and even when new, I had problems with breaking strings. I have another guitar with an edge tremolo, same thing on that one ... so that leaves my technique as the likely culprit, which would include overuse of the tremolo, sigh.

 

An interesting thing, I bought a bunch of the D'Addario 5 pack singles, high E and B. These break much more quickly than an E or B from a complete set.

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  1. Use a dB meeter (or audio tools on your phone) to set the channel volume so that you get the intended volume differences between patches.

 

 

For me, this was the big key to getting my live rig setup finally dialed in. You can't tell what your patches really are going to sound like unless you play them at (more or less) stage volume.

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Yeah, what we really need is Global EQ....

 

;)

 

And for those of us who struggle with setting up EQ something that will give us the settings for Flat output.

 

Perhaps something that will:

 

a) Connect into the MP3 input of the HD

b ) Issue Pink Noise and listen to the results via a Microphone

c) Suggest the settings for the Global EQ 

 

OK, it won't be perfect - especially without a calibrated microphone, but if it allowed a iPhone/Tablet built in microphone to be "calibrated" to the Patch set-up environment (i.e. where you set-up the patches in the first place) then it is only looking to provide eq settings to normalize the performance environment and it doesn't need an absolute calibration, just relative.

 

Just a thought

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Room acoustics could contribute to the difference between studio and live sounds, but I don't think that's the biggest contributor. If you're tweaking a patch with a dry Pre looper in a room by yourself, at relatively low volume, or with headphones you're likely to have way too much bass and treble, and do many effects when you go live. That's because what sounds good by yourself doesn't necessarily sound good at live volumes in a mix with the rest of the band. That's the same reason you don't apply EQ, compression and effects on individual soloed tracks when mixing. You might do that with the focus track, but all others are adjusted in the context of the mix. If you get them sounding perfect by themselves, they may be terrible in the mix. This is because many instruments are competing for the same space.

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Room acoustics could contribute to the difference between studio and live sounds, but I don't think that's the biggest contributor. If you're tweaking a patch with a dry Pre looper in a room by yourself, at relatively low volume, or with headphones you're likely to have way too much bass and treble, and do many effects when you go live. That's because what sounds good by yourself doesn't necessarily sound good at live volumes in a mix with the rest of the band. That's the same reason you don't apply EQ, compression and effects on individual soloed tracks when mixing. You might do that with the focus track, but all others are adjusted in the context of the mix. If you get them sounding perfect by themselves, they may be terrible in the mix. This is because many instruments are competing for the same space.

 

Yep...the only chance you have at all of getting even remotely close to a "good" live tone if you do most of your tweaking with cans, or at low amp volumes, is to tweak while playing along with some kind of backing track...preferably something similar to whatever you'll be playing live. And even then, "in the neighborhood" is the best you can hope for. Adjustments will need to be made at stage volume. Listening to the guitar by itself will almost never work.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Room acoustics could contribute to the difference between studio and live sounds, but I don't think that's the biggest contributor. If you're tweaking a patch with a dry Pre looper in a room by yourself, at relatively low volume, or with headphones you're likely to have way too much bass and treble, and do many effects when you go live. That's because what sounds good by yourself doesn't necessarily sound good at live volumes in a mix with the rest of the band. That's the same reason you don't apply EQ, compression and effects on individual soloed tracks when mixing. You might do that with the focus track, but all others are adjusted in the context of the mix. If you get them sounding perfect by themselves, they may be terrible in the mix. This is because many instruments are competing for the same space.

I believe what you say to be true Amsdenj, I have seen my mixes go from mud, to sitting nicely just by tweaking the eq. As I am sure you know the pan setting is very important in separating instruments in a mix as well. I use Logic Pro so it is fairly easy to see and tweak the eq of any given track.

 

Maybe a lot of this level chaos, and getting lost in a live band situation could be relieved if people in bands set aside one rehearsal for the sole purpose of finding where each instrument should sit in the frequency spectrum for the best over all sound of the band.

After all if you are in a band, you want your sound the best it can be for everyone's sake.

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I love this topic. Here is my 2 cents.

 

First thing first, listen to "amsdenj". Start simple. Narrow the number of amp models you use to 2 or 3 max. I mean really, before you got the pod setup you only used 1 amp and did fine. Just because you can grab this model and pair it with this speaker and use this mic doesn't mean that you have to. And it doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

Then for those still struggling to blend with the band do these and your troubles will be over....

 

1. Learn how to use your Parametric EQ. Roll up the gain to about 80%. Roll up the "Q" to about 80% and sweep the frequency until you get those harsh frequencies. Once you got them narrowed down, roll off the gain. You'll have a much more present tone. Use the amp eq to fine tune.

 

2. Do this while the band is playing! Boring for the band but great for the overall tone and sound of the band. Have the band play a passage over and over again while you dial in your tone. That is the only way you are going to get your tone to blend well with the band. Use the basic amp model with no fx. Once you got your tone sitting well in the mix, then you can start adding fx.

 

I think of it this way. Ever been in the studio? It takes forever to mic everything just right doesn't it? "Now hit the kick drum for 20 min!" "Ok, Good! Now hit the first Tom for another 20 min!" The amount of time and detail spent to get everything sounding just right is part of the reason why recording your music gets expensive.

 

Why short change yourself with your live band? Give yourself the time and space to dial in your sound with the band,playing. Doing it in your bedroom or based on what you hear on your DAW is a recipie for frustration.

 

You not only have to learn the tune, you also have to learn the tone!

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