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4 cable method. Does it really work?

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  It has signal loss issues.  I have read several web pages about this and it all seems confusing.  All I want is for the 4 cable method to work by keeping the signal to a maximum. You would think that Line-6 would have some type of mode designed directly to address the signal loss/splitting issues that exist.  Can anyone tell me how I can achieve better results?  Right now when I use 4CM the dynamics of my amp are reduced GREATLY.  It loses punch and tends to sound mushy on gain channels.  Is there anyone out there that has had success? And if so please share your secrets.

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Yes it works but like you've found the setup is not intuitive. The main issue is that the FX send has a 6db drop in level so the input of your amp gets a weaker signal than it would straight in. The fix is pretty easy though. Here are two of the most straightforward options:

 

  1. Run the FX Loop block after the mixer block. Turn up the gain on each path 3db.
  2. Run a studio EQ just before the mixer block. Keep the EQ flat but raise the gain 6db.

In both cases keep the FX loop send switch set to stomp and output level switch to line. 

 

Hope that helps!

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Once you compensate the gain to get things matched should be ok....I would not do it with an HD500....An HD Pro...sure....Too many cables...

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I put all of my cables into a pedal python (http://pedalpython.com/) and it's a huge help for setup. I'm actually running an extension cord in it as well so I can power the HD500. I just picked up a Voodoo Lab control switcher to switch my amps from the HD500 midi so I'll need to re-wrap my cable to add one more for it - 6 cable method!

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I am just lazy...My preference is a 5 foot snake on the back of the stage and a dumb controller on one cable with no signal on the front of the stage....I have had a few incidents over the years and took my pedals off the front of the stage many years ago even before Line 6 came along...I used an RP-1 way way back and that was what pretty much turned me off to the notion of these all-in-one pedalboard/rig boxes...It has nothing to do with what one can practically do with them and the HD500 is certainly 1000 times better built than any RP-1...I just like my signal in the backline where it's easy to setup and I don't have to worry about the 250 lbs tipsy dude that got into the wrong place and fell over backwards with my MK1 shortbard breaking his fall squarely in the middle of his back...Two rows of dents in his leather jacket...That event some 8 years ago sold me on the shortboard...And even though I have a MK2 now, I still do shows with that same old MK1 board that I have had for just over 10 years now...love the old green screen with LCD patch numbers and titles over the new smaller orange display...

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Ha ha I hear ya! I still have my Vetta II and Shortboard - I'll never be able to beat the simplicity of that setup!

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Not well with Pod HD and the tube amp heads i've tried with it (5150, dual recto). Too much tone suck and other annoying issues. I found it easier to to just use the pod HD preamps (models) even though i would love to be running a real tube preamp. Life was just so much easier with all the tone shaping coming from the pod, and then amplifying it with a tube power amp. Way less cables, way less to go wrong, and much easier switching live.

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Generally speaking, if you want a 6dB boost, you would actually need to turn up each mixer path 6 dB instead of 3. The reason is:

 

- When you add a signal at x dB to another copy of itself, it becomes the same sound at x+6 dB.

- If you increase each side by 3 (so that x increases by 3), the result is (x+3)+6, only a 3dB total boost.

- If you want the final result to be 6 dB louder, in these terms, what you want is (x+6)+6...

- ...So to get that, you have to increase each side by 6 dB.

 

It sounds weird and counter-intuitive, but due to the logarithmic/exponential nature of decibels, it really does work out that way - you can see it in the meters on a DAW:

 

post-72964-0-85461700-1427302121_thumb.png

 

On the other hand, the HD's routing system is so complex, there may be some other factor involved which means things are even more complicated, so Your Mileage May Vary....

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mdmayfield,

 

I'm not sure what the "true" volume makeup you need but with those settings it sounds the same (to me) as plugging in the guitar direct. 

 

NinoScholz,

 

Yes that is definitely the easiest way to run it and how I ran it for many years. The last year or so though I really wanted to get to use my amps pre. It's a constant battle though because I do hate the extra cables!

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I gave up on it a while ago and only use 4 cable once in a great while with my M13. Too much time / too many cables etc...At my gigs I look at how long my set up/ tear down time is . It is a business for me. I run my POD HD500 straight into the effect return of one of my 5 amps. No signal loss/ no tone suck/ no throwing the baby out with the bath water etc...and it kills! The only reason I would ever use it is if I started going down some crazy self destructive path and bought a $3,000 boo- teek amp with three channels and 14 preamp tubes.At that point I would have to use the 8 or 9 cable method and also midi switch all my amp channels with more cables.

 

I would also need a decent divorce lawyer at that point because all my time would be spent wrapping/ buying/counting/worshipping cables.

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Yeah! I have fun on Sundays when I host a local talent/ jam night. It is my one chance every week to hang out/ talk shop/ catch up with friends and play music with no one critiquing everything I am doing. Making commercials in studios for years has kind of made me a bit obsessive lol! I dont do that kind of work anymore but still have a lot of high pressure gigs every week! Brazzy you have the right attitude. I had the best time tonite hosting this event. We had older blues musicians/ a punk funk band/ a couple of real good guitar slingers and a few others and we made it all work. A guy in cowboy clothes with a tiny Vox tube amp and a lap steel SHREDDED LOL! The most mournful beautiful sound and the guy was beyond chops good.I was reminded of why I started playing in the first place 45 years ago.

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I run my POD HD into my Effects Loop as well. Its simple and sounds great. One cable makes it easy to troubleshoot problems as well.

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It works.

 

Here is a clip of my band doing some Van Halen.  I am using a Line 6 G50 wireless, Digitech Whammy DT and the POD HD 500 in 4CM.  I use the method described above with the mixer before the FX loop and each side turned up 6dB.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grkFGZFf4k8

 

I use the amp for the guitar tone and the POD is sending midi to the amp to switch channels.  No one can tell the difference and I think it sounds pretty good.

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Yes it works great once you get it all dialed in. I think it is as transparent as possible considering the all the AD/DA conversion happening, you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference in the band mix.

 

I'm a nut about speed/ease of setup as I like to get on/off the stage as quickly as possible as a courtesy to the other bands so I wrapped the cables (including an extension cord to power the Pod) in a Pedal Python. It's a bit bulkier in the bag but setup is really easy. I recently added a midi cable so that I could run a Voodoo Lab control switcher to switch amp channels with patches too. That said, last gig I went two cable method because I've always changing up my rig ha ha.

 

0u0SfQ9.jpg

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So I've been going back and forth trying to figure out the best settings for the 4CM method.  I acquired an HD500X a couple of months ago, and the least I can say is that you can read a lot of different opinion on the matter...  I know that in the end what matters is how it sounds, but I'd like to find out the definite truth about what is going on in the send/return levels.

 

@dbagchee: How did you setup your inputs?  Guitar / Same or Guitar / Variax?

@hollis1003: What about you?

 

I've been Googling on that subject for a while, and some old threads like these ones:

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/2040-pod-hd-500-the-fx-loop-attenuates-the-signal-at-the-send-jack/

http://line6.com/supportarchivenew/thread/74159/

http://line6.com/supportarchivenew/thread/55328/

 

Some people claim a 5dB attenuation in the send, other people claim a 6dB attenuation, some people claim that the return has a +5dB boost that needs to be compensated for with the mixer, some people recommend stomp / amp, other people stomp / line, etc.

 

It sounds to me that all these things aren't the same, because having your output attenuated before reaching your preamp then boosted afterwards isn't the same as having your output compensated before reaching the preamp then attenuated a little bit afterward...

 

I'm also surprised that these issues haven't been patched by firmware updates since 2011, or maybe they were?

 

Does somebody have any extra information on the matter?

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...Here is a clip of my band doing some Van Halen....

 

bravo george!

well done!

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I use Guitar/Same most of the time unless I am actually using my Variax (and alot of times I just use my Variax through the regular guitar input. I generally always have the noise gate first in my patches so (to my ears) it alleviates the input doubling/boost thing that some people have issue with. Hurghanico (did I spell that right?) did a nice analysis of the signal chain and what happens with mono/stereo affects which I feel is correct based on my experience. I'll see if I can find the link.

 

I use perapera's approach in that first thread you linked where I boost 6db using a EQ before the FX send. I've also done it using the mixer block and putting the FX send after the mixer. To me it sounds the same it just depends what your needs are for the patch. The best way to dial it in for your amp (fx loops vary) is to first work on the "front" of the amp and compare the tone and levels with and without the Pod. Once you get it where you want it then do the same thing with the loop.

 

Another tip (again my preference) is to set the input impedence global to 1k - this disabled the impedence modeling and will give a consistent input impedance regardless of your pedal chain.

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Thanks guys.  Yeah that thread was pretty informative, dbagchee (and thanks for sharing your settings and recommendations).

 

I've seen some very detailed posts of people measuring the exact frequency response and the impact of each settings on EQ effects and amps.  This is very useful information to dial tones.  I was hoping that the same kind of accurate data was available for the FX loop, too.

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In order to get the better results in order to use the POD HD500/X with the 4CM I recommend to use these settings:

 

1) Turn to maximum the volume level of the POD, I use an additional expression pedal connected to the POD to control the volume

2) put the switch of 1/4 output to AMP mode

3)put the FX switch on STOMP mode

4) Insert the FX block (send and return after the mixer), set the send level to 0, the return level depends by your amp, in my classic 30 I have to set him around the +12dB in my laney Ironheart on +6 dB, try to find the one that better fit your amp..

5) In the mixer put the pan on 0 for both path and the level on 0 dB for Both path...

 

 

These settings works pretty good....

 

Personally I use the amp sound so I put som effects before the amp (wha, noise gate, compressors distorsions, tremolo phaser, flanger etc..)and others after(equalizer (to boost for solos), delay reverbs chorus harmonizer , and volume pedal at the end).....

 

occasionally I use some preamps models...In my opinion Soldano Crunch,Pete amp,  Mahadiva, Brit 800, Plexi lead normal  work pretty good..

In these cases I put the output model on Combo power amp, and I use also  the cab models of preamps...

 

For global setting in my pod HD500x I set Guitar for both guitar inputs and in general I use the 3.5MHom as input impedence level...In my opinion in this way all the dynamic  of my guitars is preserved....

 

I hope this can help the Line 6 community.

 

Regards

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In order to get the better results in order to use the POD HD500/X with the 4CM I recommend to use these settings:

 

1) Turn to maximum the volume level of the POD, I use an additional expression pedal connected to the POD to control the volume

2) put the switch of 1/4 output to AMP mode

3)put the FX switch on STOMP mode

4) Insert the FX block (send and return after the mixer), set the send level to 0, the return level depends by your amp, in my classic 30 I have to set him around the +12dB in my laney Ironheart on +6 dB, try to find the one that better fit your amp..

5) In the mixer put the pan on 0 for both path and the level on 0 dB for Both path...

 

 

These settings works pretty good....

 

Personally I use the amp sound so I put som effects before the amp (wha, noise gate, compressors distorsions, tremolo phaser, flanger etc..)and others after(equalizer (to boost for solos), delay reverbs chorus harmonizer , and volume pedal at the end).....

 

occasionally I use some preamps models...In my opinion Soldano Crunch,Pete amp,  Mahadiva, Brit 800, Plexi lead normal  work pretty good..

In these cases I put the output model on Combo power amp, and I use also  the cab models of preamps...

 

For global setting in my pod HD500x I set Guitar for both guitar inputs and in general I use the 3.5MHom as input impedence level...In my opinion in this way all the dynamic  of my guitars is preserved....

 

I hope this can help the Line 6 community.

 

Regards

it work really good for me, thanks sir !

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I spent days searching the internet for a solution to the volume drop I was experiencing using the Pod HD500X and the 4CM with my EVH combo or LBX. Turns out the solution was rather simple. All I am using the Pod for is effects in front of and in the loop of my EVH amps. I rely on my Evh blue channel for my guitar tone 😎

 

Once you have the pod connected to the amp using the 4CM, set your master volume to 12 o'clock. Then arrange the effects you want in front of the amp (make sure you disable the amp modelling) then after the mixer, insert an FX loop in one of the effects blocks. Sucks it takes up an effect position but what can you do. Then arrange the effects you want in the loop after the FX loop block. Simple as that. If you experience any volume loss plugging in via 4CM method compared to plugging in direct to the front of your amp, you can boost the signal accordingly in the FX loop block by increasing the db required on the return. For me I had to increase it 12db to get the same level of output. But it works flawlessly now, I get my EVH tone and all of the effects where I need them in the chain and no volume or output loss.

 

I have seen other posts talking about increasing levels in the mixer block, or adding an studio EQ to adjust levels....Maybe that was for something different? Not sure....But this is what worked for me and I am so glad I have the Pod and EVH paired and working seemlesly.

 

Happy tone chasing folks 😎 🤘 🎸

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Yes it works but like you've found the setup is not intuitive. The main issue is that the FX send has a 6db drop in level so the input of your amp gets a weaker signal than it would straight in. The fix is pretty easy though. Here are two of the most straightforward options:

 

  1. Run the FX Loop block after the mixer block. Turn up the gain on each path 3db.
  2. Run a studio EQ just before the mixer block. Keep the EQ flat but raise the gain 6db.

In both cases keep the FX loop send switch set to stomp and output level switch to line. 

 

Hope that helps!

I am late to party here but I've seen different settings for the HD500x 4CM. I turned each path up 3.5 db and have gigged with it that way several times with my EVH 5153 combo with the output in amp mode, when I tried it in line mode the signal blasted to a level beyond what my amp would produce without the POD. Why the switch to "line"? I still hear some mush in my tone and am desperately trying to make this thing as transparent as possible. Any input would be much appreciated. (figuratively)

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Yes it works but like you've found the setup is not intuitive. The main issue is that the FX send has a 6db drop in level so the input of your amp gets a weaker signal than it would straight in. The fix is pretty easy though. Here are two of the most straightforward options:

 

  1. Run the FX Loop block after the mixer block. Turn up the gain on each path 3db.
  2. Run a studio EQ just before the mixer block. Keep the EQ flat but raise the gain 6db.

In both cases keep the FX loop send switch set to stomp and output level switch to line. 

 

Hope that helps!

 

I am late to party here but I've seen different settings for the HD500x 4CM. I turned each path up 3.5 db and have gigged with it that way several times with my EVH 5153 combo with the output in amp mode, when I tried it in line mode the signal blasted to a level beyond what my amp would produce without the POD. Why set the output switch to "line"? I still hear some mush in my tone and am desperately trying to make this thing as transparent as possible. 

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Hey Rickolds....go back and read my post just before yours. I use the 4CM with my EVH 5150III 212 combo and LBX head. I had to increase the loop return to +12db to get matched output levels compared to running a cable direct to the amp input.

 

I personally leave the FX switch to stomp. I have had no problems with the much talked about tone suck or volume loss at all with this setup.

 

Best of luck 🤘

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now i am using VOX AC30C2 as output my hd500x

what you prefer for output?

speaker monitor or Combo AMP (fx-loop)?

i am willing to buy yamaha HS8 or KRK VXT8

is it good?
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I run my POD HD into my Effects Loop as well. Its simple and sounds great. One cable makes it easy to troubleshoot problems as well.

what are your setting on POD for that. Are you using cab simulation? OR just using preamps of specific amps. Is the POD setting on direct line . man I am all confused with that 4 cable method at this point. I guess trial and error for me.

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what are your setting on POD for that. Are you using cab simulation? OR just using preamps of specific amps. Is the POD setting on direct line . man I am all confused with that 4 cable method at this point. I guess trial and error for me.

The ONLY reason to bother with the 4CM is if you want the option of getting your basic tone from whatever amp you're plugging into, while still being able to use the POD's effects. However, if you're only using the amp models (with or without cab sims), then the 4CM is pointless. Just go straight from the POD into the FX return on the amp, and call it a day.

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