How do I, or has it been done?

[kenmac1]

Ok first up I am not sure if I am better off posting this here or in the JTV forum as it relates to both.  I'll be as specific as I possibly can, because maybe one of you programmer geniuses already has something like this sorted.

My rig, I am using a pair of JTV69 and JTV89F model guitars (obviously not simultaneously) into my HD500X, which then runs into a matched pair of clean valve amps live on stage, so it is a true stereo rig.  (I actually own two of the HD500X rigs as well, as I do not trust them after the issues I had early on, so having a spare is my safety net.)  All reverbs are created via the actual valve amps, as that saves processor power and gives me a legitimate spring reverb sound instead of a digital simulation.

What I am trying to achieve, and I remember someone mentioning it can be done is...

I want to create a balanced stereo patch with a good clean acoustic (and also one with a good clean 12 string acoustic tone) on one side and a standard old school crunch electric amp setting on the other.  

I'd like to be able to kick in a Jake E Lee style phaser over the electric channel as needed, and also have the option of adding in a Tube screamer or Tube driver for a touch more edge and a wah on the electric channel, and possibly a mild chorus for the acoustic or 12 string channel via the spare switches.    Compressor will be permanently on at the front of the patch.   I'm sure I wouldn't be the only guy who would use a mixed electric and acoustic tone, and there is probably already a hundred of them out there to download, but descriptions on the download page leave a lot to be desired.

I have one song in particular where having the ability to keep the acoustic rhythm happening while rocking the wah on the electric side would be fantastic if it can be worked in.

I wasted hours yesterday (yet again) trying to achieve this, and failed miserably.   It keeps giving me a mixed signal, so both the acoustic and electric tones are coming out of both sides together instead of separated.  I can get it to give me a basic electric mag with different amp sounds easily, and alternate fx on each side, but I can't work out how to get the acoustic variax patch on one side clean with the electric mags happening through say a Gibtone, or Marshall (even a driven Fender or Vox type amp) on the other.  

Can this be done, has anyone done it, is there a patch like this or close enough that I can simply swap some fx around on to achieve my goal please?

These rigs sound amazing, but they are a mongrel to tweak and create sounds in.  

[BCproducer]

I'm guessing your issue is to do with putting a compressor at the start of the chain and it summing your two paths into mono before you split it.

 

The good news is that it's absolutely possible, I have a patch in use regularly to blend jtv acoustic sounds with the mags through an amp (plexi model with volume pedal that allows me to blend in the electric to my taste or for specific sections).

 

I'll see if I can post it up for you, but I'd also suggest you consider running the acoustic side out the fx loop into a DI instead of your second tube amp, as acoustics generally sound better through a full range pa than a traditional guitar amp, especially once it's miced. In the short term, double check your two paths are hard panned in the mixer and try having a unique compressor on each side of the chain after its split instead of one at the start which I suspect is your problem.

[BCproducer]

Ok mate here you go, I've modded my normal patch with what you requested - left side is variax mags,  a plexi marshall with red comp always on, amp drive controlled by exp 2, wah on exp 1, tube drive on fs1, phaser on fs 3. You can change the amp to one of your choice and remove the drive assignment for exp2 if you like. 

Right side variax ac model 1, a tube comp into eq (adjust to taste), chorus which is on FS 2. Both sides are also run through a stereo delay which is assigned to fs4. 

 

See how it works for you. 

 

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/893783/

[jandrio]

try this:

 

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/409201/

 

path A: jtv model (choose acoustic pos 2/4 instead of chime pos 2, change 2 standard tuning, patch uses drop d)

path B: variax mags

delete reverbs

set mixer 100%L + 100%R

set: input 1 =variax

       input 2 = variax mags

 

c+hear actual live tone on link provided in comments section...

[kenmac1]

Cheers guys, I'll have a play with these tomorrow morning, as it is nearly midnight here now.  Neighbours might not approve.

As for running the acoustic through a full range PA instead of amp,  there are a couple problems with that.  (Although I could try it through my 500 Eon I guess.)

Firstly I don't only use the acoustic sound, so I do switch back and forth between various stereo electric and even sitar sounds.  I need to be able to use the same amp to get the thick lush crunch tones… when needed, and running into a Full range PA while it may sound better for the acoustic tones (possibly) it definitely will not sound as good for the electric sounds live.   The valve amps definitely add that little something that is missing from the tones of the digital gear, more sparkle and harmonically alive.

Second the amps I am using are set to pristine clean anyhow, a pair of Roland Bolt amps, a 100w and a 60w, both set to cleaner than clean tones, with all the knobs at 5 so all the tonality is controlled inside the Pod by making the amps literally just neutral valve drivers.  If you know how clean the Jazz Chorus amps are, the bolts are much the same only Valve driven, so they add warmth without distorting.

I'll be running the acoustic side via the 100w amp as it has a much higher grade EV speaker in it to begin with, and I know that it handles the acoustic sounds pretty well perfectly, as I have often used it for doing acoustic songs at gigs and rehearsals, with both the JTVs and also standard acoustic instruments, with very little degradation of the acoustic tonality.  That amp also has a Presence control for the upper range which the 60w does not offer, so it can add those shimmering highs acoustics produce superbly.

The suggestion that I am running the compressor at the start as the cause of the problem, may well be right.  I had not thought of that, as I am so used to the old fashioned stomp boxes in line with a valve amp and just changing guitars as needed, so even though I have been experimenting and gigging for about a year or so with this stuff, I never actually considered that as the problem, purely due to the fact I never thought about it from that perspective.

Previously,  A lot of the time I simply had my acoustic DI-d into the desk, and would just grab that and play without thinking about the stompers as they were not inline anyhow.  However as I said above, I have also done many gigs with the acoustic directly into the Roland amp, and it sounds incredibly useable, or with just a little compression to add some punch or a touch of chorus and reverb to sweeten it up.

I appreciate you guys doing this, and I will let you know how it pans out, as I assume you are far more clued up on this stuff than I ever will be.

[kenmac1]

Ok, I spent a few hours literally dissecting the tones you guys uploaded, until I understood how they worked, and eventually came up with a couple of cool working versions, so thanks for the help folks.

I have an awesome balanced 12 string acoustic and Mags into the PHD amp with an optional tube Driver, wah, and phaser.  I found by placing a studio eq with some tinkering in the acoustic track I was able to sweeten it up nicely, and also added a digital delay with modulation to each channel.  I'll probably play with it a bit more tomorrow, but as they came out tonight, I can't complain as I was jamming with them for about three hours until I busted a string.

[cruisinon2]

I need to be able to use the same amp to get the thick lush crunch tones… when needed, and running into a Full range PA while it may sound better for the acoustic tones (possibly) it definitely will not sound as good for the electric sounds live. The valve amps definitely add that little something that is missing from the tones of the digital gear, more sparkle and harmonically alive.

 

What units are we measuring the "little somethings" in these days? ;)

 

I realize this is rather pointless, as the debate will go on until the last tube on earth has been used up, and last guy who remembers what they sounded like shuffles off the mortal coil, but I couldn't disagree more. If anything, there's even less of a difference live. In the quiet, controlled environment of a studio where you can A/B a modeler vs the real thing, then maybe...if you have "golden ears", as they say. Even then, there are seasoned pros, both players and engineers alike, who get fooled.

 

But with a band around you, cymbals crashing 6 feet from your head, and a bunch of caterwauling drunks writhing about, it's virtually impossible to tell the difference, imho.

[kenmac1]

Cruiser, if that were the case, why then do Line 6 market the DT series of valve powered amps to drive the HD Controllers through?  IF there really was no discernible difference between running the HD through a solid state amp or a tube amp, then Line 6 must be selling these units under false pretences. 

I can understand that if you are using the ultra high gain modern amp sounds the nuances of the valves may not make much difference.  The amount of Metal Heads using high gain solid state Randalls and similarly voiced amps demonstrates that very clearly, but if you are using classic old school, raw crunch sounds, the harmonic overtones of output tubes definitely come into play.  So under those conditions, the difference between using a solid state amp, (Even an expensive high end model) vs a Clean valve powered amp is very apparent.  It is not one of those things you say "Wow, what a freaking difference..."  It is more the sort of thing that when you swap to a solid state system you know something is just missing, the sound is still useable, but not quite there.  Output valves are what create the harmonic overtones Old School players all crave, not the input valves, (Input valves simply supply the gain, hence the reason so many folks use tube screamers ....  to boost the gain of their vale amps, but still insist on valve output stages)  so having a valve output stage is always going to help restore some of the natural warmth my generation grew up with.

As for a bunch of drunks... I play in an all original Classic Melodic Rock band in sleepy little Perth Western Australia.  We are lucky to pull a hundred people to a venue because the punters would rather listen to some moron with a laptop, who calls himself a DJ / Producer, than attend a real gig with real musicians playing real music.  Half the time we are playing to less than 20 people, and I could count the number of times in this band where I have had to listen to the noisy drunks from on stage, on one hand with fingers to spare.  

My band is not Metal, so we do not attract so much of the Drunken Bogan crowd that maybe the heavier bands in town seem to draw, in fact ten people at one of those Metal shows would probably be louder and more out of control, than 50 at one of ours.  I do not even turn my amps past three on stage, and the sounds / tones are crystal clear, on angled amp stands pointing at ear height...  My drummer is not a hard hitter, he plays to suit the music not his ego, and our stage balance is perfect before it even goes to the desk.  If you could not hear the difference under those conditions, then maybe it is you, who needs your ears checked to find out why you can't discern the difference between the sterile sound of a solid state rig vs the warmth of a valve rig, regardless of what gear is inline before the amplification stage?    Your tastes may even lean towards favouring the solid state tone over the valve tone with the HD Rig, (I can't imagine that, but younger kids love the high gain solid state tones), but saying it is virtually impossible to tell the difference is like saying it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between a Hyundai wannabe sports car and a Ferrari.  They do the same thing, or do they?

[maxnew40]

Kenmac, they also make the stagesource speakers to use with the HD500, so it appears that the fact that they make the DT may just as easily be because old guys won't buy amps that don't have tubes in them.

 

I switched from using a tube power amp to using a L2 Speaker and I think the HD500 sounds better into the L2 than the Bogner designed tube power section of the spider valve amp I used. The other guitarist in our band is a tube and analog purist and he still can't get over how good my system sounds on stuff like the strat into a fender twin.

 

I play in a band that plays rock music from the 60s and 70s so there is no high gain stuff going on at all.

 

There is real psychological problem when you know what device is producing which sound (identical wine with a cheap looking label and expensive label will fool people into perceiving the cheap labeled wine tastes bad and the fancy wine is superb when they are in fact the same thing). When a blind test is performed the results might surprise you.

 

Less than 20 people at a gig? Do you get paid for attracting that tiny audience?

 

-Max

[kenmac1]

Kenmac, they also make the stagesource speakers to use with the HD500, so it appears that the fact that they make the DT may just as easily be because old guys won't buy amps that don't have tubes in them.

 

I switched from using a tube power amp to using a L2 Speaker and I think the HD500 sounds better into the L2 than the Bogner designed tube power section of the spider valve amp I used. The other guitarist in our band is a tube and analog purist and he still can't get over how good my system sounds on stuff like the strat into a fender twin.

 

I play in a band that plays rock music from the 60s and 70s so there is no high gain stuff going on at all.

 

There is real psychological problem when you know what device is producing which sound (identical wine with a cheap looking label and expensive label will fool people into perceiving the cheap labeled wine tastes bad and the fancy wine is superb when they are in fact the same thing). When a blind test is performed the results might surprise you.

 

Less than 20 people at a gig? Do you get paid for attracting that tiny audience?

 

-Max

Max, it is an original band, and it is a sad situation in Perth, but the Original scene is puss.   Happy to be one of those old guys who loves his valve tones, at least the sound is real, earthy and it breathes life into the band's overall aural assault.

I could go back to playing covers and be playing full houses night after night, as I did for many years, but it is not satisfying.  I'd rather play my own tunes to a room with a small audience, who appreciate what we are writing, than be a human juke box, playing other people's hits.  Been there done that.  Like most musicians, I have played festivals, and big open air venues with thousands of people there.   But it was in cover bands, and as exciting as that was to think "Wow as far as I can see there are faces watching us..."   It still left me feeling somewhat unfulfilled.

As for being paid, it is a door deal, so if we get a good night, we might make a few hundred on the door, but more often than not, we barely cover expenses.   I do not care, I earn a bloody decent income on my day gig, (more than most so called rock stars these days) so I do not play for the money, I play for the joy of getting up there and showing the punters what we are writing / producing.  Playing my own songs to 20-30 really appreciative punters is far better than playing someone else's hits for 500 people, who are just drunk and annoying.  I suppose if I were single and looking to get laid by a different chick or two every night, that covers would appeal to me more, but I have a Goddess, I don't need to impress the short skirts at the front of the dance floor any more.

I've done the blind tests, tried all manner of amps, and directly into the PA, and it is not just me who keeps pulling my sound back to the Roland Valve output stages.  My Bassist and Drummer both say it every time I pull out the twins (as I call my Bolt amps) again, how much more alive and less sterile the sound is.  I have gone months playing through various different amp configurations at gigs and rehearsals with this HD500X and Variax combinations.  I was happy (not ecstatic) with the sounds I was getting with the various solid state and valve rigs, but as soon as I switch back to the Twins, even though I can't put into words what it is that is otherwise missing, the sound is complete again, or very close to it.

It is still not the bees knees.  I mean as an example, a week or so back I decided to crank my Engl Fireball, and the crunch tone of the clean channel fully cranked gain (but at a room volume) made both myself and my guitarist friend who was here smile from ear to ear from the very first chord, far more than I have done with the HD rig yet.  The Fireball (Angel) patch in the HD is not as close as it could be trust me.

There is something to be said about the sound of a good high quality valve stack.  It is not that I am refusing to embrace the digital sounds, or at least try to embrace them.  I know what I want to hear.  When I crank out a tune on my Convertible amp, with a set of classic and high gain modules in the second channel, every musician in the room looks up and pays attention.  The thing just barks like an angry pittbull with a cat cornered.  Or when I belt out a punchy rhythm sound with my 100w Bolt in the overdrive channel (full gain) although it is not a high gain amp tone at all, in fact quite mild, the sound of that valve output stage just bursts through the Lorantz speaker (My personal favourites) like all hell is about to break loose.

I get some great sounds out of the HD500X rig, I really to, but I've yet to dial in a sound that just makes me want to play all night long.   Using the Twins at the arse end of the set up definitely brings it one step closer to the sonic nirvana I am looking for.   While it may not be exactly the sound I want, the fact that I can get so many vastly different sounds at the touch of a footswitch, makes it a worthwhile way to go about getting useable stage sounds.   And it still sounds better than most of the guitarists I share the stage with, mostly because I do not use such highly compressed distorted sounds, so my tone still cuts through.

I agree regarding using the Bogner Spider amps with the gear.   We had a second guitarist in Southern Cross with me a few years ago, who used one of those, and it simply did not cut it.   On it's own it sounded superb, but as soon as the band fired up (back when I was using my Engl Screamer as my main amp) he just sounded thin and empty.  So much compression that he got buried.  My combo would be on maybe 2-3, he'd be at 5-6 and still barely had the headroom to come over the top for a solo when he hit boost.

In my collection of valve amps I still have a Fender Champ, a Seymour Duncan 100w Convertible (combo), An Engl Fireball (60w stack) and in recent months I have sold both a 5150 and a 6205+ (I think it was called, never got into the sound at all), Engl Screamer 50w combo, Randall 50w valve combo, Both a 50w Ashton valve stack and combo version, (which really are identical to the Randall TD50 anyhow)  and still have a few solid state amps sitting around.    There are probably a few other valve amps laying around that I am overlooking.   My house has more gear than most local hock shops.

The biggest problem with suggesting to look at these different stage source.... or whatever Line 6 product may be on offer, is that living in Western Australia, the stores here get the dregs.   If I want to specifically try one of those weird or wonderful devices, I am expected to pay a deposit to the store to order it in, because they know that if I do not buy it, they will get stuck with it for a bloody long time, and probably end up selling it at cost just to get rid of it.  I am one of the very few local guitarists using this sort of gear, especially to the level I am using it on stage.   Most of the kids are high gain solid state crap with a hundred stomp boxes, and the guys my age are all Valve gear with vintage stomp boxes.   I am the only guy I know of with any Variax guitars, and I have one original and three current models.   I'm the only guy I know of using the HD500X rigs live.    I rang the only two major Line 6 stockists to see about trying out a pair of DTs, and neither even had one for me to try out.  I want to run it as a stereo rig, so obviously I'd need to get a pair, and hear for myself if the improvement is worthy of what will be around a $5k outlay for two amps, or if there is any notable improvement at all.   

I don't think I will ever beat the rock sound of a good Valve stack with the tubes really cooking, or my 100w Bolt with my old faithful Yamaha Studio Lord in front of it.   But I am a realist, and I know that unless I drag a heap of guitars to each gig to cover the bases of acoustic, 12 string..... that the only real way i am gonna come close to getting the sounds I want live is to use the current set up with maybe a little tweaking.   I'd rather be 90% of the way there and have a wide variety of sounds, than have one ball breaking tone, for rock, and be having to switch back and forth between instruments all night long.

As for a back to back test.   Years ago, I had a Fender Custom Shop Tele, and found a Fenix Tele in a guitar shop second hand for a few hundred bucks.   Did not even plug it in, just fell in love with how it felt and how it looked.   Took her home expecting full well to have to change out the electronics, but it sounded better than the Fender as well.   I got a few muso mates to listen, but not facing me so they did not know which guitar was which, and everyone agreed the Fenix was the better sounding guitar. They were shocked that they chose the Fenix over the Custom Shop, but the point I am making is that I could not care less whether it is a certain piece of equipment or not.  If the sound is better, that is all that matters.