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davec69

Woooossshhh.......That was the QSC Touchmix

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It is nasty disease that came out of nowhere and spreads like wildfire.

 

It is known as 'upgradeitis'

 

It affects computer systems the worst, with 'upgraded' operating systems emerging every year just to break everything you had working perfectly, but has recently spread to mixing consoles.

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It is nasty disease that came out of nowhere and spreads like wildfire.

 

It is known as 'upgradeitis'

 

It affects computer systems the worst, with 'upgraded' operating systems emerging every year just to break everything you had working perfectly, but has recently spread to mixing consoles.

 

I understand that a huge sanitorium is being built, specifically for "upgradeitis" sufferers, just outside of Instant Gratification, USA....conveniently located just 3 miles from Free Everything International Airport. :P

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I'm glad this mentality wasn't around in the day of the horse and carriage, or we'd all be carrying pooper scoopers around with us.   Right Si? ;-)

 

Let me just point out the fact that the M20D is upgrade-able via firmware, which tells me that Line 6 at least considered the ability to upload fixes and possible updates to the M20D.  Otherwise, why add the extra cost?

 

In addition, Line 6 has provided users with a nice Ideascale page on which we could upload ideas and suggestions.  Idealscale is separate from their support page.  It's a way for M20d (and other Line6 product users) to submit ideas for making the M20D a better product for users.

 

Again,  Take a look at some of the user feature requests added to the idealscale page.  Is there anything on there that you would like to see added to your M20d?  I know there are several, that I would love to see.

 

My guess is that Line 6 / Yamaha agrees with the Colonel's statement of "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix it", and have decided to cut their losses.  Thank god (yeah I said it) for companies like QSC, who look to the future.

 

One last question for the Colonel.  If Line 6 popped out an update for the M20d tomorrow which added a few new features like

 

Auto EQ option for mains via Mic input on M20d

 

Tap tempo delay for stagescape m20d

 

Save FBS settings with Setups on the M20d

 

Screen Lockout

 

Along with other fixes, would you update your M20d or stick to your "If it Ain't Broke Don't Fix it logic? "

 

 

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!"

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I'm glad this mentality wasn't around in the day of the horse and carriage, or we'd all be carrying pooper scoopers around with us.   Right Si? ;-)

 

Along with other fixes, would you update your M20d or stick to your "If it Ain't Broke Don't Fix it logic? "

 

I hear ya, not trying to be dismissive of your original post! :) Good point, well said... Some things, regardless of being broken, or not, can stand to be improved. To a certain degree, my use of this mixer has not utilized it's full potential to the extent that, I don't (yet) find myself yearning for it to do more than it already can.

 

The 12 XLR limit is something that can't be altered by firmware, and that is quite frankly, it's greatest limitation. I happen to use mine with a four piece often with only one vocal mic, and due to budget constraints, I only have two monitors.. Obviously, six or eight monitors, not gonna happen with firmware.. It's second greatest limitation is only having four monitor sends!

 

I literally just sent links with a bunch of YouTube videos to our soundguy, to try to entice him into wanting to learn up in this thing so if we need him for a show where we use my rig, we can hand the reigns to him, and let it rip!

 

I have used it to mix from stage, and I run it at rehearsals, it's done what I want and need it to do. Call my needs 'simple', and that would be accurate. But I will take the time to read up on those suggestions, and look at it from beyond my own 'simply satisfied' approach.. I would guess, if I was trying to use it for someone else's band, with more vocals, and more players, I would run into those limitations *way* sooner!

 

Anyway, my 'broke / fix' comment was flippant without much thought to the original intent of the post, and was not intended to be construed as negative, though I can see why it came off like that.

 

Cheers! :)

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The 12 XLR limit is something that can't be altered by firmware, and that is quite frankly, it's greatest limitation. I happen to use mine with a four piece often with only one vocal mic, and due to budget constraints, I only have two monitors.. Obviously, six or eight monitors, not gonna happen with firmware.. It's second greatest limitation is only having four monitor sends!

 

 

This is the only reason I'm looking for a new mixer; the m20d has been a fantastic piece of gear for me; I just out-grew it.

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lol, just saw this comment from Don Boomer- I guess I was already wrong about 12 being the limit for mic inputs!!

 

"dboomer

Actually you currently can input 16 microphones. The 1/4" inputs are balanced and can accommodate mics ... phantom power is not available on these inputs however.

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On a side note, they (QSC) included pitch correct with the onboard fx.. not judging, it can be good, or bad, depending how you work it! just interesting. I would imagine that is a DSP intensive effect.

 

"Curious! Very curious..."

-Mr. Ollivander

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I'm glad this mentality wasn't around in the day of the horse and carriage, or we'd all be carrying pooper scoopers around with us.   Right Si? ;-)

 

Let me just point out the fact that the M20D is upgrade-able via firmware, which tells me that Line 6 at least considered the ability to upload fixes and possible updates to the M20D.  Otherwise, why add the extra cost?

 

In addition, Line 6 has provided users with a nice Ideascale page on which we could upload ideas and suggestions.  Idealscale is separate from their support page.  It's a way for M20d (and other Line6 product users) to submit ideas for making the M20D a better product for users.

Dave, I think you've missed the point I was trying to make.

 

Just because Line6 added the facility to update the M20d with bugfixes and possibly upgrades to the software, at what point does that give *any* user the right to expect ongoing upgrades for free, and apparently for life? As has been pointed out by others more eloquently than me, it isn't free for Line6 to develop such upgrades, so why do modern consumers expect and subsequently demand those upgrades at a regular interval?

 

If specific BUGS had been discovered in the software then yes, I would be one of those queuing up waiting the fix. If Line6 decided to roll out upgrades alongside those bug fixes, either because they were already on the development table when the unit was first designed but which weren't quite ready when the marketing boys wanted to launch or because the software team were twiddling their thumbs one week with nothing better to do then so much the better. We've seen this occur twice already, but to my knowledge, there haven't been any more *bugs* discovered.

 

IF Line6 were to release a software upgrade which I would benefit from, but for which they required some remuneration, then I would willingly pay for it. If it contained nothing I needed, then I'd skip.

 

I'll re-iterate, but without the analogy...

My M20d does everything I expected it to do (and more) when I decided to buy it.

I was satisfied that it was worth the money I paid, at the time I bought it.

It delivers stellar sound with minimal effort on my part so fulfils my primary reason for buying it.

It has sufficient inputs and outputs to cater for my needs at the time I bought it. Had there been a model with more inputs then I'd have likely bought that at the time, but there wasn't so I didn't.

I don't expect Line6 to supply me, you or anyone else with FREE upgrades to the software but will gladly accept it *if* given.

I DO expect Line6 to support the product and rectify any discovered bugs in a timely fashion.

 

Many of the "ideas" on ideascale are very singular in nature. Not that they are bad ideas, but they solve a problem for a tiny proportion of users.

 

 

As for the four ideas you've highlighted...

 

Auto EQ option for mains via Mic input on M20d

 

So you'd willingly sacrifice a mic input for this? Aside from anything else, the StageScape is aimed at gigging bands. Auto EQ the room with a mic, your 200+ audience arrives and the entire venue's acoustics change, so unless you have it running permanently (thus sacrificing a mic input) what's the point? Experience teaches us which of the many presets to use and which will subsequently be mellowed by the arrival of the audience.

 

 

Tap tempo delay for stagescape m20d

 

No use to me.

 

 

Save FBS settings with Setups on the M20d

 

It's been answered over and over again. Feedback is driven by so many factors that saving notches seems absolutely pointless to me. Ring the room out.

 

Screen Lockout

 

OK, you've possibly got me with this one. Can't imagine I'd use it, but I can see why many would think they want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the flip side, how many of the ideas posted over there had never crossed your mind, until you saw them there?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for us all still using pooper scoopers... how'd you work that one out? The transition from horses and carts to petrol driven automobiles took many many years. Why? Because initially, support for the automobile was low and as such cost was high. People who already owned a first generation motor often felt the had to buy a new model when the next one came out because it was better, had the features they then required and some other manufacturer had come along in the meantime and woven a few of the first cars ideas into their new car on top of which they'd added a few flourishes of their own. The automobile manufacturers didn't send out upgrades to the owners though. You wanted the new features, you had to buy again or make do with what you'd got.

 

 

Software vendors are little different, though it appears otherwise. If you want the latest version of Apple OSX, you've got to buy it. If you want the latest version of windows, you've got to buy it. Yes, you get updates through the lifespan of the product but those updates are 99% bug fixes and vulnerability patches, you don't normally get new features. So, back to the original point, why do modern consumers seem to expect/demand such things without expecting to pay for it just because it is software and the manufacturer had the foresight to add in a simple flashing process so they could remedy bugs if any were found?

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I understand what you're saying Si, but I think you may have missed MY whole point.   Like you, I am very happy with my M20d.  I'm not looking for or expecting any particular updates or new features.   A couple people earlier in the thread jumped on the update aspect and kind of hijacked the point.  Let me try to make this clear from my perspective.

 

Line 6 introduced a great product in the M20d.  It's in THEIR best interest to keep customers interested in their products.  This can be done in various ways.  One way is to engage with their customers, and do things like add new features to those products which customers request.  Other things like adding additional hardware to the line is another way.  Creating a vibrant user community to maintain interest.   All can extend the life of a product for many years.  Based on my experience with line 6 variax gear, and other products which I own, I've seen this in action.  When it works, it's great.

 

I have no idea what plans Line 6 or Yamaha have for the M20D.  It was way ahead of it's time in my opinion, which is one of the reasons it attracted my attention.  I like the idea of being on the leading edge of new audio technology.  That's what I hoped for with the M20D.  That's why I paid such a high price for it early on.  Unfortunately, now it seems that enthusiasm has faded away.  Not by the users, but by the company that released the product.    Now, several other manufacturers have caught up, and look to be on the path to advancing this idea.  When that happens, the M20d will go the way of so many other good ideas.  Eventually, people will start unloading them to get what they can towards their next purchase, which would be a shame for such a great product.  Anyone remember the Behringer DDX3216?  One of the original consumer digital mixers, along with the more expensive Yamaha 01/02 digital mixers.  I kept my DDX3216 for many years.  Like the M20d it was so far ahead of it's time, it gave users many years of use.  Then Behringer just dropped it.   That's when i started hearing talk of the M20d, which leads me to now.

 

I'm sure Yamaha will have something out there eventually.  The TF mixers look good, but that's a different animal.  The Line 6 concept behind the M20d was special in my opinion. I hope it doesn't go the way of the DDX3216.

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I guess it's the way of the world.

 

The first digital incarnations of products have a naturally short lifespan (just look at mobile phones) and yet here we are investing in something we have every expectation of it lasting as long as its analogue counterparts.

 

It's in THEIR best interest to keep customers interested in their products.

I don't disagree.

 

One way is to engage with their customers,

Yep, still with you...

 

and do things like add new features to those products which customers request.

See, here is where you, and others give the impression that you're expecting something more than you paid for. It is this bit that I don't understand.

 

Other things like adding additional hardware to the line is another way.

Yep, I'm back with you now.

 

Creating a vibrant user community to maintain interest.

Not entirely sure how Line6 can do this, other than the facilities we already have. Even with such a medium, it is down to individuals to get involved and sometimes that takes time to develop. PA isn't exactly the most interesting area of music production. Some of us find it fascinating, others just switch off. All the guys in my band care about is whether we sound good. They couldn't care less about how that sound is moulded from the raw inputs.

 

All can extend the life of a product for many years.  Based on my experience with line 6 variax gear, and other products which I own, I've seen this in action.  When it works, it's great.

Variax and the guitar range is an entirely different ball game. The pool of guitarists is considerably larger than the pool of PA owners. That sheer difference in boots on the ground makes it easier to get a vibrant community going and, gives Line6 a much bigger consumer base to secure.

 

I have no idea what plans Line 6 or Yamaha have for the M20D.  It was way ahead of it's time in my opinion, which is one of the reasons it attracted my attention.  I like the idea of being on the leading edge of new audio technology.  That's what I hoped for with the M20D.  That's why I paid such a high price for it early on.  Unfortunately, now it seems that enthusiasm has faded away.  Not by the users, but by the company that released the product.    Now, several other manufacturers have caught up, and look to be on the path to advancing this idea.

No, neither do I. As you say, StageScape was a curve ball when it was released and, in many ways, it was a game changer. You only have to look at the number of traditional PA companies who have now adapted their model ranges and, as you say, caught up. It is debateable whether any have surpassed the M20 across the board. Yes, some have features which have been requested, but they are missing something the M20 has. Others get pretty close.

 

Are Line6 right to keep quiet about future developments they are working on? Yes, in my opinion. It is all too easy for competitors to steal and weave those same ideas in to their product lines at an alarmingly fast pace. Especially when the other main players in the arena have PA as a bigger part of their portfolio than Line6 does. We're talking here about a product line that is still less than 3 years old, and yet by the way some are talking, you'd be forgiven for believing it dead.

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Hi Dave,

 

I fully agree with you. (In German I would say "I underline everything you wrote" - but I don't know if this expression exists in English :-))

 

Let me add some words: There are some guys who are saying that every user wants every update for FREE - to me, this is bulllollipop.

 

As an example: I am using the app "OnSong" (for lyrics, chords, playbacks, setlists, etc.) - there are several updates for free (bugfixes, new features) and there are updates with special features that cost money. Could be an idea, or?

 

If there were an update where the monitorsection can be adjusted by several iphones (like the Yamaha TF ;-)) - I surely would BUY this feature.

 

The only thing I would like to know is, if there are any updates in future - elsewhere I would buy a different mixer. It is that easy: tell me, if there are updates in future (maybe the updates that I want the most :-)) or if Yamaha will dropp the M20D!

 

There is one thing I don't want: To buy a new mixer and 2 weeks later there is an update with a lot of new features for the M20D.

 

If the the development of the M20D has stopped - it's ok - but tell me. If there is a future for the M20D - it's ok - but tell me!

That's all! I don't want everything for free, I don't complain about the price drop. I don't expect impossible changes.

 

All that I expect is a statement about future of the M20D.

 

Greetinx

 

Roger

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You only have to look at the number of traditional PA companies who have now adapted their model ranges and, as you say, caught up. It is debateable whether any have surpassed the M20 across the board. Yes, some have features which have been requested, but they are missing something the M20 has. Others get pretty close.

 

Very true! Many copies, but few contenders. More XLR's going into lower quality A/D chips isn't "better"..

Who has the best A/D chips? I'd like to see that comparison. For example, the quote from Don Boomer regarding the M20d AD/DA chips:

 

"Those are very expensive Burr-Brown chips as used by some of the most expensive mixers on the planet.  They are by no means cut-rate and there's no "doctoring up" necessary."

 

Do any of the 'knock off' copycat mixers offer higher than 24bit/48k multi-track recording>?

To onboard SD card, or forced to connect outboard USB equipment?

 

I have used Behringer in the past; not sure what I think about their stuff anymore. They have stuck around, despite some really "budget" type mixers and random gear. How do their "Midas" preamps hold up against Line6, or Mackie, or any of the other contendors?

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR18

Behringer XR18 X Air
X Air Series 18-Channel, 12-Bus StageBox/Rackmount Digital Mixer for iPad/Android Tablets with 16 Programmable Midas Preamps, Integrated Wi-Fi Module, Multi-Channel USB Audio Interface, and Rackmount Ears

 

The notion of consumer confidence is definitely a sticky wicket. It does what it does; unfortunately, whether it can do more in the future for free or for pay, that's to be determined.

 

That notion is very specific to items which can be updated with a computer / firmware / software. For example, if I had purchased an analog mixer, I wouldn't be concerned with what it can or can't do beyond what it offered when I bought it. 

 

When Apple or Windows makes a new operating system, it's not free.. But the updates to your existing system *are* free. I suppose between those two points is where Line6 sits. I buy it for what it is today, right now. Hoping for it to be more than it is, we are often rewarded by companies like Line6 that do update their products. Granted the M20d hasn't seen updates recently.

 

Quite frankly, if anyone knows the answers we seek, it's Don Boomer!! But I doubt he is allowed to say anything. Don't want Mackie / Berhringer / PreSonus / etc copying those ideas before they're implemented!

 

Kinda like when those two copy cat movies come out - like "Whitehouse Down" and "Olympus Has Fallen". Who had the first idea? Who copied whom? And ultimately, which movie was better? Did Gerard Butler kick more a$$ than Channing Tatum? Was Jamie Fox the better pretend US President? We'll never know... Both movies were terrible actually, but that's not the point..

 

For example, I see QSC, Behringer, Mackie, PreSonus, and various other companies making similar "knock off" stuff.. Is their quality level comparable to Line6?> Is it better? Sure, it's a copy or inspired by Line6, but does it surpass Line6's M20d - in more than just adding inputs or built in wifi, or talkback mic or any other feature that was cherry picked to specifically be offered in competing options.

 

Which features matter most to the person buying the gear?

That is the question marketing teams lose sleep over :)

 

There will always be something better, something newer, something more expensive, and something cheaper. There will always be something else...

 

I mean, check this out!!!!! It's *only* $23,000....

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M5000

 

Roland M-5000

Digital Mixing Console with Up to 128 Channels, 28 Faders, 12" Touch Screen Display, and 24-bit/96kHz Resolution
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That's a little different in my opinion.   Those that follow that Apple mentality are a special breed.   These are people who are getting rid of one perfectly good piece of hardware, to purchase the latest version of that hardware.    It's amazing how companies like Apple have created this phenomenon.

 

 

I guess it's the way of the world.

The first digital incarnations of products have a naturally short lifespan (just look at mobile phones) and yet here we are investing in something we have every expectation of it lasting as long as its analogue counterparts.
 

 

See, here is where you, and others give the impression that you're expecting something more than you paid for. It is this bit that I don't understand.

 

What I meant in that statement is that when a company, any company listens to their user base and adds new features to a particular product, it creates enthusiasm for that product.  Not just for the current users, but for new users who may be on the fence or considering the purchase.  This is actually in the best interest of the company.  The users just reaps the reward.  It's a win win that can extend the life of a product for years, and increase customer satisfaction and brand loyalty.   It's the opposite of the Apple mentality.  Some companies have figured this out already.

 

Not entirely sure how Line6 can do this, other than the facilities we already have. Even with such a medium, it is down to individuals to get involved and sometimes that takes time to develop. PA isn't exactly the most interesting area of music production. Some of us find it fascinating, others just switch off. All the guys in my band care about is whether we sound good. They couldn't care less about how that sound is moulded from the raw inputs.

 

It's what they call a catch 22.  To create the vibrant user community, you have to create hype for the product in question.   This can happen many ways, but in the context of this discussion, it would most easily be accomplished by interacting with your users, finding out how they use your product,  and making efforts to increase customer satisfaction through things like product updates, user resources like video, audio, ect.  Once the hype is established, they will come.


Variax and the guitar range is an entirely different ball game. The pool of guitarists is considerably larger than the pool of PA owners. That sheer difference in boots on the ground makes it easier to get a vibrant community going and, gives Line6 a much bigger consumer base to secure.

 

I agree with you that the guitar community is larger, but that's kind of secondary from any companies perspective.  They have long ago figured out what numbers they need to make the M20d a successful product.   It may be only a fraction of the Variax user numbers.  Theoretically though, the same people that are available to the Variax, are also available to the M20d as a product.  It's up to Line 6, to figure out how to capture them. 


No, neither do I. As you say, StageScape was a curve ball when it was released and, in many ways, it was a game changer. You only have to look at the number of traditional PA companies who have now adapted their model ranges and, as you say, caught up. It is debateable whether any have surpassed the M20 across the board. Yes, some have features which have been requested, but they are missing something the M20 has. Others get pretty close.

Are Line6 right to keep quiet about future developments they are working on? Yes, in my opinion. It is all too easy for competitors to steal and weave those same ideas in to their product lines at an alarmingly fast pace. Especially when the other main players in the arena have PA as a bigger part of their portfolio than Line6 does. We're talking here about a product line that is still less than 3 years old, and yet by the way some are talking, you'd be forgiven for believing it dead.

 

 

I still think the M20d / Stagescape line has a large advantage over the other contenders.  It's a great product, with what seems like lots of potential.  Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what you or I think, if Line 6 has chosen not to develop the line further.   Keeping quiet about future developments is no way to increase hype for a particular product.   They're not doing anything that can't be done by countless other companies, including the thousands of factories in China.  The questions in my opinion is who will get there first, and who will have the satisfied customers waiting when it does arrive.  Being first to release a new product with all your special features, and not having the customers waiting for it, is kind of how we got here today with the M20d..  In my opinion, of course.

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I agree.   I just realized that Kemper is a German company.  They admittedly have a very pro-user mentality when it comes to their products.  It's important to them that their customers feel like they're getting every dollar out of their purchase,  so they are constantly developing.  I'm sure those developments also advance their next product.

 

As mentioned, I own a Kemper Amp.  It's pretty much on the verge of amp technology, sImilar to the way the M20d is on the verge of mixer technology.   On the Kemper side, we just got v3.0 of the software which added several new features which users were waiting for.  You can read on the Kemper forum how this has increased user satisfaction, and increased brand loyalty by leaps.  New owners are flocking to the amp.

 

In between major version releases like v3.0, there have been countless minor updates, and fixes.  v2.4, v2.5, v2.6, v2.8, ect.  When they finally do release their next product, they will have all the current owners standing in line, and a whole batch of new owners ready to go.  

 

The good thing about new updates is that every user can decide when and If they want to install.  I'm sure there are some very happy M20d v1.0 users out there right now.  

 

Hi Dave,

 

I fully agree with you. (In German I would say "I underline everything you wrote" - but I don't know if this expression exists in English :-))

 

Let me add some words: There are some guys who are saying that every user wants every update for FREE - to me, this is lollipop.

 

As an example: I am using the app "OnSong" (for lyrics, chords, playbacks, setlists, etc.) - there are several updates for free (bugfixes, new features) and there are updates with special features that cost money. Could be an idea, or?

 

If there were an update where the monitorsection can be adjusted by several iphones (like the Yamaha TF ;-)) - I surely would BUY this feature.

 

The only thing I would like to know is, if there are any updates in future - elsewhere I would buy a different mixer. It is that easy: tell me, if there are updates in future (maybe the updates that I want the most :-)) or if Yamaha will dropp the M20D!

 

There is one thing I don't want: To buy a new mixer and 2 weeks later there is an update with a lot of new features for the M20D.

 

If the the development of the M20D has stopped - it's ok - but tell me. If there is a future for the M20D - it's ok - but tell me!

That's all! I don't want everything for free, I don't complain about the price drop. I don't expect impossible changes.

 

All that I expect is a statement about future of the M20D.

 

Greetinx

 

Roger

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I agree.   I just realized that Kemper is a German company.  They admittedly have a very pro-user mentality when it comes to their products.  It's important to them that their customers feel like they're getting every dollar out of their purchase,  so they are constantly developing.  I'm sure those developments also advance their next product. As mentioned, I own a Kemper Amp.  You can read on the Kemper forum how this has increased user satisfaction, and increased brand loyalty by leaps.  New owners are flocking to the amp.

 

In between major version releases like v3.0, there have been countless minor updates, and fixes.  v2.4, v2.5, v2.6, v2.8, ect.  When they finally do release their next product, they will have all the current owners standing in line, and a whole batch of new owners ready to go.  The good thing about new updates is that every user can decide when and If they want to install.  

 

Yeah, I have been wanting to upgrade to Kemper one of these days!! I keep checking to see if Sweetwater has the rack+foot controller in stock... 

Kemper is definitely "next gen" level, they blow away everything that came before, and set a new paradigm in the process.

 

Das Kemper ist sehr gut!

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Glad you found something and too bad your M20d is now faulty. I don't think the M20d was marketed well and the user forum was great but also spotlighted every problem that the new buyers were having. I was one of the 1st to buy it and before that I saw it in action at NAMM so was very excited but later when I went to music stores after owning it I was surprised they had it sitting there and no one working had the slightest idea what to do with it or how to use it. I actually pulled an employee over and started showing him but line6 didn't have link cables at the stores and employees didn't have iPad connected and probably a lot of potential buyers saw the forum users with issues so now it's 1/2 the original price- which in my opinion is better if you already have the speakers. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a frozen screen at the gig though - awful scary!!!

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I loved the master EQ presets but maybe I was the only one using them because The 1st firmware update had a flaw where it sent the master volume to 0 when choosing a different master EQ preset - totally unacceptable in the middle of a performance- and took a year for the 2nd firmware update to address that flaw! But happy it did - I guess not many where using master EQ presets, but I love them.

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I loved the master EQ presets but maybe I was the only one using them because The 1st firmware update had a flaw where it sent the master volume to 0 when choosing a different master EQ preset - totally unacceptable in the middle of a performance- and took a year for the 2nd firmware update to address that flaw! But happy it did - I guess not many where using master EQ presets, but I love them.

If fact I also love all the input presets - except not sure why They don't let me have a stereo input on the Hammond preset.

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Tempted by the QSC to replace my faulty M20d but jumped at this for the money-

http://www.dv247.com/namm/soundcraft-ui16-digital-mixer--216752

Amazing spec and built in Digitec/Lexicon Fx, dedicated wifi connection and works with android too, also separate monitor mixes for band members.

Sorry but it Doesn't look that amazing to me! Also Sorry your M20d broke down

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http://www.soundcraft.com/ui-demo/mixer.html

 

Watch the Demo's too,  For less than half price of the M20d too. Like the Stage box concept too.

 

Well, I just got to spend some time with one of these. They are actually excellent in many respects. The fact that they are totally crossplatform with ability to mix ands match between Android tabs and iPads, or even 'phones and computers is a huge plus. You can carry backup with you... ethernet hardwire available too. General features like EQ/Comp/Reverb/Gate is more than adequate for most purposes, but not quite as sophisticated as on the M20D. The wireless connection was instant and rock solid... one up on the M20D in that department. Mic pres sounded very good. Impressive Digitech modelling on the high impedance inputs.... overall, inputs not as flexible as the M20D, but again, perfectly functional and in most cases, would do the job nicely for a small band gig. The anti-feedback function is up to many standalone units, with 12 fixed and floating filters, but is not as sophisticated as that on the M20D, and is across the mains and AUX out rather than channel specific. Regardless, it works and works well in practice. Recording is 2-channel (stereo mix only), so a long way behind the M20D there. Also... PSU is not integrated, so you have a PSU box and low voltage connector to the mixer.... so, these are drawbacks. Despite these, the performance of the thing was highly impressive, especially considering the price. In fact, so impressive I ordered the smaller Ui12 as it is perfect for duo type gigs (8 mic pres, 2 with high impedance inputs and modelling), and is small enough to hold in one hand. A great backup mixer, too... just in case...

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I haven't been around for a while. Thought I would stop by and see how things were going. I traded my m20d in about 6 months ago or something like that. It is a great mixer. Made my life very easy for over a year. I wasn't looking do updates. What I really wanted was expandability. It was amazing with our four piece band. And using it with 2 l3s's, 2 l3t's, and a couple of l2m's made setting up, and getting almost instantly good sound in any room is something I must admit I haven't really seen since. It still amazes me how well all those units work together (speakers and mixer). I still have all the speakers. And I really like them and do get s good sound. But when it came to doing more live sound for other bands, and especially outdoors where you want 5 mics on just the drums, a stereo keyboard, a couple guitars and 4 vocals, etc, the outputs really got eaten up fast. Yes, possible, but limited for sure. I have gone with the behringer x32rack. Again, the m20d was great, and I never would have gotten rid of it if they just came out with a digital stage box that allowed more inputs, or something like that. And a couple more monitor mixes which I thought would be not too hard with their Link technology. But, I know nothing about what is under the hood.

 

Love my line 6 products. Speakers, g55 wireless and xd75 wireless mic. Great stuff!

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I haven't been around for a while. Thought I would stop by and see how things were going. I traded my m20d in about 6 months ago or something like that. It is a great mixer. Made my life very easy for over a year. I wasn't looking do updates. What I really wanted was expandability. It was amazing with our four piece band. And using it with 2 l3s's, 2 l3t's, and a couple of l2m's made setting up, and getting almost instantly good sound in any room is something I must admit I haven't really seen since. It still amazes me how well all those units work together (speakers and mixer). I still have all the speakers. And I really like them and do get s good sound. But when it came to doing more live sound for other bands, and especially outdoors where you want 5 mics on just the drums, a stereo keyboard, a couple guitars and 4 vocals, etc, the outputs really got eaten up fast. Yes, possible, but limited for sure. I have gone with the behringer x32rack. Again, the m20d was great, and I never would have gotten rid of it if they just came out with a digital stage box that allowed more inputs, or something like that. And a couple more monitor mixes which I thought would be not too hard with their Link technology. But, I know nothing about what is under the hood.

 

Love my line 6 products. Speakers, g55 wireless and xd75 wireless mic. Great stuff!

 

I couldn't stand the Behringer mixers, the sound is too tinny/piercing and has noticeable digital artifacts for me.  I just bought a Yamaha TF3 for the gigs I need more i/o capacity, but keeping my M20 for the smaller gigs. 

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If the the development of the M20D has stopped - it's ok - but tell me. If there is a future for the M20D - it's ok - but tell me!

That's all! I don't want everything for free, I don't complain about the price drop. I don't expect impossible changes.

 

I agree but don't ever expect them to say this... the only way you will know this is when they release the M32D (or what ever the next big thing in digital mixing Line 6 comes out with if they ever do)

the reason is that all the "in stock" units would become near worthless unless you just couldn't afford the next big thing and you could "settle" for it until you could save up for the other.

 

The Eleven Rack is a good example of this (I love mine and I am not getting rid of it) the only way we know about the "drop of it" is because Avid layed off all of the development team as well as the creator of it. 

 

 

I understand that a huge sanitorium is being built, specifically for "upgradeitis" sufferers, just outside of Instant Gratification, USA....conveniently located just 3 miles from Free Everything International Airport. :P

 

 

 

It is nasty disease that came out of nowhere and spreads like wildfire.

 

It is known as 'upgradeitis'

 

It affects computer systems the worst, with 'upgraded' operating systems emerging every year just to break everything you had working perfectly, but has recently spread to mixing consoles.

 

Yes it's related to "GAS" Gear Acquisition Syndrom .... I am currently suffering from symptoms of this for the Line 6 Helix....

 

This is actually the "Eleven Rack-2" or the "11-R ii" that everybody has been waiting for! grin.gif

People asked for a floor unit & or a dedicated foot controller, IR loading & much more!

 

Well.........This is it & Sean Healy who worked on the 11R for Avid has been working on this at Line-6 since since he left." Quote from; X-Mann on 11r presets forum

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Yes it's related to "GAS" Gear Acquisition Syndrome"

LOL... I have a severe case of this. So does our drummer! Between the pair of us, we've spent near on £25k (about $35k) in the past 2 years!

 

Mine is a voyage of discovery. I've bought cheap, used it and shelved the gear, then bought more versatile gear which makes life more flexible. I've expanded my rig (an extra 2 L2t's along with new drum mics). I've modified my own sax mic rig, falling for XD-V75 but thought at the same time, what the heck, I'll get some handhelds for when I'm hiring my rig out. I've bought cheap(ish) party lights, but done away with them in favour of more powerful wash lighting. But it all adds up. The last thing on my mind though is blaming anyone else for my buying decisions each step of the way. I chose, I used, I kept or I moved on. The BIG constant in my setup is the Stagescape and the Stagesource speakers. They collectively form an immense, versatile and brilliant sounding system that I have yet to hear beaten by anything less than double the price I paid, and bear in mind the gear is now around 30% cheaper than it was back then.

 

Everything we buy has some form of compromise attached. For every little niggly missing feature on the M20d, there's at least one on every alternative. Yes, the alternative might have that missing feature, but what don't you get on that system that the M20 does have? The Touchmix and the Soundcraft UI both look good in their own rights, I certainly don't dispute that, but the M20d is still a contender. Make the decision about what to buy and live with it. As soon as you start looking at new features available on newer consoles, your eyes are bound to turn green with envy.

 

I still love my M20d, it works flawlessly every time. The *ONLY* gripe I have is the SD Card reader can be somewhat temperamental. particularly if you swap a card out. Otherwise, *mine* has been faultless every usage and still continues to impress me.

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Right next to the "upgradeitis" sanitorium, they'll build another one for old farts who live in the past.  They'll fill it up with the M20D, Behringer DDX3216, Synsonic Drum sets, Betamax video, Motorola Brick cell phones, Palm pilots and Rubiks cubes.  You guys can all sit around and talk about what a great place the world used to be, before all these new-fangled gadgets came along.   

 

I wonder which one will have more residents?.   ;)

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.......remember when we used to buy analog mixers that didn't have the ability to be "Upgraded" and we were happy for a time?!?!?

 

FWIW:  If the grass is greener on the other side, it may be that its growing over the septic tank!!!

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Personally, I bought the M20d for what it did at the time. I had no notion that it was going to endlessly have features added.  I was excited and grateful when they brought us "fader view" and a few fixes.  The main reason that the ability to upgrade via firmware exists is not with the vision of bringing updates.  It's a device that operates via firmware, so if this needs to be reflashed to fix a problem the ability to do so is there.  And without having to take the device to a service centre.  Sometimes the fix is just reflashing the firmware that already exists.

 

Davec69, Of course some of those features above would be great to have,  Hell I think I was probably the first to ask for the ability to save FBS, even if it was just simply to ring out the room earlier in the day and then be able to turn off the mixer.  But at the end of the day yes that would be a luxury but it's not essential.  I'll focus more on the fact that compared to the old days at least I don't have to listen to the frequency that is feeding back try to identify it by ear and then locate and adjust manually on an outboard graphic EQ.  The M20d does this automatically, and with such a narrow notch, it doesn't destroy to overall EQ of the mix.  This is magic.

 

In fact the depth of this mixer and what it actually CAN do is incredible.  For me there is nothing else out there that I would swap any of this gear for, there really isn't.  At the end of the day this mixer along with the stagescape speakers produce the best front of house mixes I've ever experienced.  Isn't that what it's all about? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not missing your point, but what features are going to get us better than the best sound.  If it's about doing it more quickly, that would be difficult, for me, it would be down to shaving seconds off my set up time.  Is that a justifiable request?  Would auto EQ via a mic really be that much faster than having a listen and then using the built in X/Y quick tweak screens to dial in the sound?  You still have to set up the mic and then activate the sequence.  What if you do that and aren't happy with the auto results. 

 

For Line 6 it's a cost vs value argument and then you have to factor in the limitations of the hardware.  Can you implement a new feature without making the mixer more laggy and without creating new bugs.  This is a well thought out mixer, there isn't a ton of room for improvement.  Line 6 does have idea-scale and I believe that if enough of the ideas are good enough and could come out on the plus side of the above equation (Cost/value/overtaxing the hardware) then Line 6 will offer a new update.  If not, they'll leave it alone and stand behind what the mixer does do, which is deliver great sound.

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I'm glad to hear that you're happy with the M20D as it is.  Many of us are.  My question is and has been,  what could have been if the M20D was given the full development backing the company that created it, or from Yamaha?  

 

The M20D was one of the first to out of the box with this new mixing idea, and initially appeared to have such great future development potential.  Couple this with the Idealscale page where customers could offer ideas as to future development, and It really made me want to get in on the ground floor, so to speak.   I had no idea that years later, the Ideascale would be full of customer "Ideas", but we'd all still be sitting on the ground floor waiting for the first "Idea" to be incorporated by Line 6.

 

To be honest, I was perfectly happy with the mixer that I had prior to the M20D.  It was the future development potential of the M20D that was a major attraction for me.  Sadly, it looks less and less like this will happen.  Especially with so many of you carrying the I'm happy with what I've got banner.  I'm sure this is taken into consideration by the powers that be.  

 

Sad really, I would have loved to see some of those customer ideas incorporated into the M20D.

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First of all Dave, I don't want this to sound argumentative but I know it probably will.  Sometimes you put things into text to make a point and it just sounds disrespectful. That is not my intent at all, I mentioned above that I get your point, in general I do, but I think what I'm missing is the just the gravity of it.  With that out of the way let's get on with it.

 

Yes, many of us are happy with what we've got, 1) we did our research (as I'm sure you did too) about what the mixer could do and then said to ourselves "that's great I'm going to spend a bunch of my money on this" and 2) this is an amazing mixer that delivers great sounding mixes room after room after room.

 

Although some of the credit has to go with to the stage source speakers, what other system has a protocol like Line 6 link, where you can daisy chain out of the mixer and everything just aligns itself left and right and tops and subs cross-over point set, but adjustable if needed etc.  Quick and easy set up, as advertised.

 

I have to disagree with your premise that our being happy with what we have is costing you your update.  I doubt they are looking at this thread and saying "ha, look at all the people that are happy, let's just throw in the towel".  The 10 or 12 people that have weighed in on this is hardly a representation of all the M20d's that have been sold.  In fact it's too small of a sample to even project percentages in any responsible manner.

 

I really honestly think it comes down to the things I eluded to above.  First, Line 6 wants this to be the best product it can be.  Sometimes that means not messing with it.  That said, if they agree that certain features will make the unit significantly better without sacrificing processor performance, we will see an update. 

 

Line 6 has already done one update on this mixer, and they have done updates on many of their other products and are generally pretty good as far as that goes.  But let's just set that aside and set aside what any other companies have done or do and concentrate on this product.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of spending this kind of money on what one hopes a mixer might do in the future as opposed to what it actually does.  That would mean before you even get it home and plug it in, your already aware of what you perceive to be shortcomings.  I mean, I guess so, but I just don't see it, not without some kind of banner on the box saying "Lot's of cool features to be added in the future!!" 

 

I'm not getting from this thread that there are things that the mixer doesn't do that you can't live without,  it seems more like, "it would be nice if it did x, y and z".  I could be wrong but over all that's that spirit of what I think you're saying.  But what is sad?  What ideas are on ideascale that would significantly improve this mixer?  Like I said I put forward the idea of saving FBS settings, even argued my point.  But Don Boomer from Line 6 disagrees with me that it is necessary or even helpful.  Maybe he's right.  I thought it would be helpful based on my experiences with the board but over the months/years since I made the request, the lack of this feature hasn't really had that big of an impact on me.  And if Don is right, maybe it wouldn't have worked anyway which would mean it has zero impact.  This is just one example but I have to think that implementing ideas will change some things that some users may not want changed.  It may mean one more menu level that some don't think is justified.

 

So what I am saying is not all ideas are good ones, even if someone takes the time to put it on ideascale, so if Line 6 brings an update it will be well thought out and what they believe will be mutually beneficial to most users.

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We're just discussing here, so no worries about disrespect and the like.   Looks like we agree on most points.   I'll just touch on the couple of spots where we disagree.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree with the belief that Line 6 does not take into consideration the tone of discussion about the M20d on this forum, or for that matter every other social media avenue out there.  It's 2015, those avenues highly affect the success or failure of products.  In general, discussion of the M20d is good on the social media front.  There are no glaring defects or omissions in the M20d that people are going on about, and owners and non owners alike generally think of it as a good product.  Couple that with a quiet discussion forum, where it appears that many owners are just happy to have what they have, and I doubt that we will see any future product updates for the M20d.  No need for Line 6/Yamaha to invest any more money into it.  It is what it is, so to speak.

 

I can only speak for myself when I say that I expect more from a develop-able product like the M20d in 2015, and point to a few other products that I feel get it right.

 

 I've mentioned previously my Kemper Profiling Amp.  These guys know how to develop a product, and keep customers engaged for years.  They consistently interact on their user discussion forum, and us users see the results of those interactions, as updates and new features added to the product.  You definitely feel like you're getting your money's worth when you buy a Kemper product.  What is funny is that Line 6 also does this with many of  their guitar products.  This makes me think that it's definitely a case of the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  

 

TC Electronic, another company that has fully embraced the develop-able product concept.   They listen their product owners and incorporate new features regularly.

 

And finally, QSC, another example of a company that seems to be on a the right path towards developing their Touchmix mixer with customers in mind   Just checked out their forum out of curiosity, and saw a thread from someone asking when an Android app would be available.   One of the QSC moderators chimed in that it was under development, and would probably be available early next year, along with a Iphone Aux app.   Compare that answer to the same question being asked on this forum about the M20d:

 

 

Hi,

 

Can the M20D be controlled with an Android tablet via wifi?

 

Cheers

 

 

This response comes from one of the Line 6 "Experts"

 

 

it's a 2000$ mixer....

the argument can be made that people who can buy one... can also buy a 200$ ipad.

sure android would be easy for you since you already own one....

and i have nothing against android....

if that stops you from buying one, maybe you just don't want it bad enough?

 

The above thread can be found on this forum.  Search "Android" for yourself.   The Line 6 Moderator had this to say in the same thread:

 

Android is not "class compliant" and it is also much slower. Each Android manufacturer has their own version of the operating system. That means you have to create a number of apps and that drives costs. 
 
 
Again, i will emphasize that I have no complaints with my M20d, the way it is. it does what it does.  My only complaint is that I expected more interaction/development for my dollar.  It appears that many of you are still in the release it and forget it mentality of the good ole days, and no demand ultimately leads to no development.  Nothing wrong with that, just two different perspectives.  

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big difference between an employee of the company responding to a post and one of the experts here... we experts are simply knowledgable users... 

meaning we don't know what they are working on... might decide to work on... etc....

 

the dates on those posts were likely over 6 months to a year old...

i'd say that even if they came out with an android app tomorrow... the response was accurate...

it's clearly stated what support exists for the device...with no promises of anything other than what's clearly stated.

 

 

 

 

TC Electronic, another company that has fully embraced the develop-able product concept.   They listen their product owners and incorporate new features regularly.

 

And finally, QSC, another example of a company that seems to be on a the right path towards developing their Touchmix mixer with customers in mind   Just checked out their forum out of curiosity, and saw a thread from someone asking when an Android app would be available.   One of the QSC moderators chimed in that it was under development, and would probably be available early next year, along with a Iphone Aux app.   Compare that answer to the same question being asked on this forum about the M20d:

 

 

Hi,

 

Can the M20D be controlled with an Android tablet via wifi?

 

Cheers

 

 

This response comes from one of the Line 6 "Experts"

 

 

it's a 2000$ mixer....

the argument can be made that people who can buy one... can also buy a 200$ ipad.

sure android would be easy for you since you already own one....

and i have nothing against android....

if that stops you from buying one, maybe you just don't want it bad enough?

 

The above thread can be found on this forum.  Search "Android" for yourself.   The Line 6 Moderator had this to say in the same thread:

 

Android is not "class compliant" and it is also much slower. Each Android manufacturer has their own version of the operating system. That means you have to create a number of apps and that drives costs. 
 
 
Again, i will emphasize that I have no complaints with my M20d, the way it is. it does what it does.  My only complaint is that I expected more interaction/development for my dollar.  It appears that many of you are still in the release it and forget it mentality of the good ole days, and no demand ultimately leads to no development.  Nothing wrong with that, just two different perspectives.  

 

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As I have recently spent time mixing on a Soundcraft Ui12 and a Behringer XR12 it might be helpful if I reported on a few observations.

 

GUI: The Ui12 GUI is excellent. Really smooth and very intuitive. Highly cross-platform compatible. Works nicely on Ipads, Android, PC, Mac. By contrast the Behringer XR software and apps feel unfinished. Very clunky. Saving scenes across devices is a nightmare (they are stored locally on each device separately!). The layout is pretty bad too. Some functions on Ipad do not work on Android, and vice versa. A bit of a mess.. The M20D frankly beats both of them, and then some. The Soundcraft does have some very nice qualities, however.

 

Preamps: Unexpectedly, the preamps on the Behringer are really very good. These are the new 'Midas' based designs. Don't confuse with the poor preamps on previous Behringer mixers. No comparison. The Soundcraft preamps have big problems... serious noise issues that get worse as phantom power is applied. Practically unusable above +30dB gain. The M20D has nothing to worry about from either of them, but in this case, it is the Behringer that gets closest.

 

FX: Both smaller mixers have a very decent range of quality FX. The Behringer adopts a kind of "internal plugin" approach. Both lack the huge range of complex FX found on the M20D and also have nothing like the enormous preset library. The Ui12 has a good, basic, 2-channel anti-feedback system on the mains and AUX outs. It works well, but is no competition for the much more sophisticated system in the M20D. The Behringer has no AFS at all.

 

Recording: The Soundcraft has no recording ability. The Behringer records 2-track only. Larger versions of both are available that do offer recording up to multi-track on the Behringer's, but none of them offer the convenience of recording to SDHC card combined with USB out to computer. The M20D has advantages here too.

 

Connectivity: Both have built in wi-fi routers. Both have an Ethernet port built in. That said, lots of connectivity issues relying only on the built-in wi-fi and for range and reliability, you still need to look at an external dual-band router. The M20D requires an ethernet adapter and has no built-in wi-fi, so lags a bit behind here, otherwise, I found all three mixers very reliable when set up correctly.

 

Summary:  Despite these other mixers being very recent, the M20D is still way ahead in many, many areas. I also spent a brief time with a QSC Touchmix.... and I honestly did not feel it was in any way better than the M20D, and quite a long way behind in some areas (no anti-feedback system, for example). The first two times I started the Touchmix 16 the screens locked, by the way! This seems to be a common issue over on their support board...

 

Having tried the grass over on the other side of the fence, I still reman very happy with my M20D! It is a very good mixer indeed.

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As I have recently spent time mixing on a Soundcraft Ui12 and a Behringer XR12 it might be helpful if I reported on a few observations.

 

 

Preamps: Unexpectedly, the preamps on the Behringer are really very good. These are the new 'Midas' based designs. Don't confuse with the poor preamps on previous Behringer mixers. No comparison. The Soundcraft preamps have big problems... serious noise issues that get worse as phantom power is applied. Practically unusable above +30dB gain. The M20D has nothing to worry about from either of them, but in this case, it is the Behringer that gets closest.

 

 

I'll disagree with you on the Behringer pre-amps; they have a really harsh high end that I can't stand on cymbals and other high-frequency instruments.  For the rest of it, though, I'll agree with a few minor opinions

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I'll disagree with you on the Behringer pre-amps; they have a really harsh high end that I can't stand on cymbals and other high-frequency instruments.  For the rest of it, though, I'll agree with a few minor opinions

 

Certainly the example I tested and used did not have those characteristics at all. I would even describe them as "smooth" at the high end. I actually expected to hate them (based on other experiences with older Behringer stuff), but found myself liking them quite a lot. I'd be happy to use them. Other aspects, however, were more frustrating...

 

The 'Scene' saving function drove me crazy. You cannot even tell what scene is currenty loaded...and managing things on several devices is diabolical, because they each have the settings saved locally and do not automatically synch with the mixer.

 

It was nice to get back to the M20D and have everything crystal clear and hassle-fee again.

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I've had the harshness in three venues with three different boards, including the regular and compact editions.   I agree on the UI; it's horrendous.  I went with the Yamaha TF3 myself for my upgrade, though I'm keeping my m20d around for smaller gigs.

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The TF3 is a nice mixer. I've been using the A&H Qu 24 when I need a larger console. Also very nice.

 

It is certainly interesting to observe how fast progress has been with these smaller "stage box" devices, however.

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