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input 2: set as same/disabled comparison

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I've read a few useful guides (meambobbo amongst others) on the subject of using one or both inputs to get a "purer" input signal. Consequently, since i've had my HD i've run as one input only believing there is a trade-off running both inputs parallel. Obviously, the main factor being a loss of level when disabling input 2 (set to variax when using a regular electric guitar on input 1) Now i'm wondering how much of this is psychological but i will need to tweak all my patches if i change this.

 

I'm interested to know who else feels there is any "loss" as a result of setting input 2 to "same" or "guitar" through phasing issues? Perhaps on paper or a bench test there is some time-shift, but can anyone comment on a loss of tone through setting inputs the same? What settings do the rest of you use for inputs 1 & 2?

 

thanks all

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I am old fashioned. I grew up in an era when guitar gear was guitar gear. Bass gear was bass gear. ETC

So, because of that, I only have one thing plugged into the pod. I have no need for all of the other stuff. 

I made (or downloaded) my patches based on the way I have my unit set, which is based on the way I use my unit. Changing the setting will change the tone, which means I would need to adjust all of them.

 

basically, what I am saying is:

 

You can set your unit anyway you'd like. Its yours, you make the rules. Its music, there are no rules.  

But the one thing to remember is that whichever way you set it when you make your tones is how you should keep it set. 

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I see you referenced meambobbo already. He posted "i am meambobbo and I approve this post!" on a thread started by perapera called "Pod Hd 500 - 500x *new* Routing Schematics". I had to read that tread a few times to understand the point perapera was making. I even read it the first time he posted it. His hand drawn schematics were difficult for me to decipher, but later posts in that thread had some nice and easy to understand pics of perapera's drawings.

 

I believe his primary intention was for users to understand that using a mono effect in the pre section of the signal chain will result in a 6dB loss when using the input 1 = guitar, input 2 = variax. There is a lot more discussion in that thread that could be of value to you if you want to go through it all.

 

It can get as complicated as you want it to be, but ultimately it's all about the tone you like with the tools you have in the POD HD, and there are many.

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I've read a few useful guides (meambobbo amongst others) on the subject of using one or both inputs to get a "purer" input signal. Consequently, since i've had my HD i've run as one input only believing there is a trade-off running both inputs parallel. Obviously, the main factor being a loss of level when disabling input 2 (set to variax when using a regular electric guitar on input 1) Now i'm wondering how much of this is psychological but i will need to tweak all my patches if i change this.

 

I'm interested to know who else feels there is any "loss" as a result of setting input 2 to "same" or "guitar" through phasing issues? Perhaps on paper or a bench test there is some time-shift, but can anyone comment on a loss of tone through setting inputs the same? What settings do the rest of you use for inputs 1 & 2?

 

thanks all

 

Kind of a broad question, since one patch may benefit from using only one input, but others maybe to their detriment. Cleans may be better with only one input. Higher or ludicrous gains could certainly benefit from a boosted signal going into the amp. So it's probably not as simple as making the change for all of your patches. You'd have to test each one to see what you think. And then if you do change the setting, you would likely have to tweak further it further. Experimentation.

 

I can't say I've come across any info about phasing issues using both inputs set the same. But there are, and you probably already know, about some potential phasing issues with a dual amp/cab setup, but they're minor and can become lost against a background.

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I've read a few useful guides (meambobbo amongst others) on the subject of using one or both inputs to get a "purer" input signal. Consequently, since i've had my HD i've run as one input only believing there is a trade-off running both inputs parallel. Obviously, the main factor being a loss of level when disabling input 2 (set to variax when using a regular electric guitar on input 1) Now i'm wondering how much of this is psychological but i will need to tweak all my patches if i change this.

 

I'm interested to know who else feels there is any "loss" as a result of setting input 2 to "same" or "guitar" through phasing issues? Perhaps on paper or a bench test there is some time-shift, but can anyone comment on a loss of tone through setting inputs the same? What settings do the rest of you use for inputs 1 & 2?

 

thanks all

 

I am very much like you, scouring the forums in search of a tried and true way to use all the settings in your new POD.  The truth is, as you are seeing from the above posts that there really isn't a tried and true way.  You really have to screw around with everything to find what works for your particular set up.  Me personally I use guitars with active EMGs running into my POD which is set for direct (inputs are the same) with a dual amp patch that runs out of my 1/4 in outs to an external EQ then to a pair of Alto TS110a.  I have my mixer channels set to hard left and hard right.  This works for me great.  I have noticed that with this setup I can turn up louder with my tone sounding nice and clean.  That's just my experience though.

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Speaking for myself, I am currently back to guitar/same.  I don't hear the filter combing effect reported by others... the 6db loss is really noticeable.

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I'm with you here. I tried both Guitar/Same and Guitar/Aux input settings. I settled for Guitar/Same. I'm happier with my patches this way and I don't really hear the comb filtering.

Speaking for myself, I am currently back to guitar/same.  I don't hear the filter combing effect reported by others... the 6db loss is really noticeable.

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For me it was huge, setting it to Guitar/Aux.  At lower volumes it didn't make much difference but at live volumes it was hard to control the feedback and squeal.  Then I could do more with compressors to get the feel that I was looking for.

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I am old fashioned. I grew up in an era when guitar gear was guitar gear. Bass gear was bass gear. ETC

So, because of that, I only have one thing plugged into the pod. I have no need for all of the other stuff. 

I made (or downloaded) my patches based on the way I have my unit set, which is based on the way I use my unit. Changing the setting will change the tone, which means I would need to adjust all of them.

 

basically, what I am saying is:

 

You can set your unit anyway you'd like. Its yours, you make the rules. Its music, there are no rules.  

But the one thing to remember is that whichever way you set it when you make your tones is how you should keep it set.

 

Good advice piano guy. Especially if you plan on making tons of patches.

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Guitar/same just has too much noise/hiss to my liking. Guitar/variax is noticeably quieter. This is with the guitar unplugged so I'm not talking about any 60 cycle/lighting/RFI effects. This is just the old plain electrical noise floor I'm talking about. But I don;t need a lot of signal in my patches. I don't drive anything very hard. But if I need to, I can always add an FX block to give me more signal. This way I have the best of both worlds. Low noise when I need it. More signal when I need it.

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Low noise when I need it. More signal when I need it.

 

An occupied FX slot when you need it...

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There is no phase problem with Input = Same because there is nowhere for a delay to occur between the two inputs; it is one ADC reading the that single input.

 

The only place where you get phase problems is when you run parallel paths with different content and then mix them back to mono at some point.  Keeping them true stereo/dual mono out to different speakers and you have no problems as the difference in timing will be the same as moving your head an inch to one side or the other.  If you mix two different signal paths such as two different Amps back to mono by either setting the mixer to put both channels to centre or following the mixer with a mono effect such as Tube Comp then the slight timing differences through those Amp models will potentially cause comb filter problems - where at certain frequencies the delay causes the signal to be effectively inverted and cancel out.

 

This latter issue is what meambobbo spotted when trying to mix two different cabs together, but if you ran them as dual mono the same combination probably sounds huge.

 

Personally I usually run Variax on 1 and Guitar on 2, because I play Variax as my primary instrument and I prefer to raise the gain level when I choose to - there is little enough headroom with some effects before their undoubtedly accurate overloaded sound becomes apparent.  That same overloaded component may be exactly when somebody else wants though - there are many stories about the guitar on some very famous records being recorded through some very odd equipment and a "guitar amp" not being found anywhere!

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A post that is well structured, informative and interesting. I could read posts like this all day. Kudos Rewolf48.

 

 

There is no phase problem with Input = Same because there is nowhere for a delay to occur between the two inputs; it is one ADC reading the that single input.

 

The only place where you get phase problems is when you run parallel paths with different content and then mix them back to mono at some point.  Keeping them true stereo/dual mono out to different speakers and you have no problems as the difference in timing will be the same as moving your head an inch to one side or the other.  If you mix two different signal paths such as two different Amps back to mono by either setting the mixer to put both channels to centre or following the mixer with a mono effect such as Tube Comp then the slight timing differences through those Amp models will potentially cause comb filter problems - where at certain frequencies the delay causes the signal to be effectively inverted and cancel out.

 

This latter issue is what meambobbo spotted when trying to mix two different cabs together, but if you ran them as dual mono the same combination probably sounds huge.

 

Personally I usually run Variax on 1 and Guitar on 2, because I play Variax as my primary instrument and I prefer to raise the gain level when I choose to - there is little enough headroom with some effects before their undoubtedly accurate overloaded sound becomes apparent.  That same overloaded component may be exactly when somebody else wants though - there are many stories about the guitar on some very famous records being recorded through some very odd equipment and a "guitar amp" not being found anywhere!

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Thanks.

 

I went over this a few times with meambobbo and others, and I think we raised suggestions that either it should be possible to adjust the delay at the mixer, or that the HD500 should automatically introduce a delay in the shorter path so that it matched that of the longer path - and have the ability to invert one side should one amp model gives an inverted signal to the other. meambobbo in his guide suggests getting around it by adding neutral setting EQ blocks, which add a short delay, but I don't like that too much as it is all guesswork (not knowing even which path is delayed most, by how much or how much delay the EQ provides) and it uses precious FX slots.

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I even noticed the delay's comb filter effect with the mix control of, say, the wah. The signal going thru the wah is processed and, therefore, delayed. The dry signal is not delayed and is mixed with the delayed wet signal. You get a big old' notch in the middle of the passband. This may not be bad, but it's there.

 

You'd think they'd be able to match wet/dry delays within a given FX, but it doesn't seem they did this.

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If you mix two different signal paths such as two different Amps back to mono by either setting the mixer to put both channels to centre ......
 
 
 
as hurganico noted: if panning the mixer hard left and right you lose one stereo channel in each path.
if you pan both to center you retain both stereo channels.
if you only have one channel and pan you also lose (mute) the other stereo channel and the signal is one half mono.

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I wish I understood  all this stuff too. Not understanding the signal chain I just play with effects until I find something I like. Sometimes I feel I'm chasing a tone that I keep hampering by adding an effect that I shouldn't be. I'm guessing the summing effects are effects that are not stereo? I would just like to know the best global configuration that I can't F up with playing with different effects in the chain.

(clueless)

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I wish I understood  all this stuff too. Not understanding the signal chain I just play with effects until I find something I like. Sometimes I feel I'm chasing a tone that I keep hampering by adding an effect that I shouldn't be. I'm guessing the summing effects are effects that are not stereo? I would just like to know the best global configuration that I can't F up with playing with different effects in the chain.

(clueless)

 

There is nothing wrong with not understanding tech jargon. 

There is nothing wrong with plugging in and twisting knobs until you find what you like. 

 

But there is no 'one single configuration' of global settings that will work for everything. 

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The HD500 is not easy - even knowing which effects are stereo or mono is not obvious and get it wrong and your carefully crafted stereo wide vanishes for some unknown reason, or you get some weird change in sound.  This link for those who don't know it exists is a reference as to which effects are which in the mono/stereo range (it is not always obvious):

 

http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/pod/pod-hd/stereomono-fx-list-for-pod-hd-r567

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makes me wonder: if i have my input settings as per patch, not global, and i download a customtone from someone using global settings (where the input settings are not saved to any patch,) i probably end up with settings not intended by the author .

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Show me the law that says you have to use their file as they wrote it. 

Tweak dem sumbichiz. 

 

I edit every file I use (Including my own). Sometimes it is just volume matching. But other times I am adding or removing (usually removing) blocks. 

That's why my pc has so many folders of the same patches. I keep the original unedited download as a reference. And (if needed) a folder of the original file after I convert the format. Then I have my initial edits. Then I have file I use. 

 

And, if after using it awhile, I need to tweak something, I keep that file so I can compare the two at a later date. 

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The HD500 was designed to have proper gain staging with an instrument in input 1 and input 2 set to Same, regardless of mono or stereo effect blocks, or whether the effect blocks are before the A/B split, in the A or B path, or after the A/B mixer. How this is done is somewhat complicated, but you don't really need to know that. To preserve the gain staging as designed, input 2 should be set to Same unless you are actually using two different instruments, in which case you would generally run instrument 1 into path A and instrument 2 into path B, then mix them at the mixer.

 

Of course there are no rules. If you like the tone from input 1 set to guitar and input 2 set to Variax (so it is essentially off), in most cases you will get a 6dB drop in gain. That may be fine as it will drive the effect blocks and amps at a lower gain and give a different tone that might be just what you're looking for.

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I've found the input Z setting to give more variance to my "tone" where as the input settings only effect volume. I have them set to "SAME" now that I have passive pickups. I had them set separately when I was using active pickups because the "PAD" cut the signal more than I wanted, so the input setting gave me the input level adjustment I needed to keep from clipping the input. There's nothing wrong with looking at it scientifically, but essentially, all those graphs and numbers can only tell you how things are different, not whether or not you're going to like how it sounds.

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