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AlexKenivel

Interesting Observation (and new question)

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Prelude

 

After having my Hd500x for (jeez idk) maybe 2 months now, I've ran direct into a slew of different things with great results. It started with my friends' secondhand Behringer Eurolive PMX2000 powered mixer and two Squier SQ12s with flat EQ. Sounds great and plenty loud. Then onto my my father's Carvin pm12a (awesome again), to Guitar Center's wall of powered speakers (many awesome results), to last night's EDM recording session I was invited to, going direct through a Focusright 2i2 and out of the biggest KRK monitors I've ever seen (on tripod stands, even)(awesome).

 

While I was driving home, I thought about how great a sound I was getting, but at the same time remembering how my drummer from a different project felt about not quite "feeling the push of guitar speakers" at our last jam/practice. This gave me the idea of finally trying my pod through my Carvin MTS3200 and my open back Carvin 2x12 with V30s.

 

Today

 

I wake up and set everything up; pod in 4CM through my Carvin's power amp section. starting with a fresh new tone, I switched around with the amps and post eq'ing and got some good quick tones and then decided to try a direct patch just for giggles. I can honestly tell you, with shield in my hand for the incoming flaming stones that will be thrown at me, that it sounded fantastic even with cabinet and microphone emulation pumping through the V30s.

 

After my 1.6 seconds of being in shock and awe, I decided to plug in my XLR cable into the Behringer/Squier setup to A/B the rigs. They sounded very very very very close, but with the PA set up lacking a bit of low end. All it took was a small boost from the mixers bass knob (mind you I keep the EQ flat) to get them in the same chest-pumping territory.

 

Maybe it had something to do with my dual amp patch, in which one is a pre and one is a full, or maybe Squier used to put guitar speakers in their passive PA speakers (lulz). I noticed a strong similarity in tone among my other patches as well.

 

The only biggest difference that I could tell so far, is that when the PA system is cranked the highs seem to dominate the sound, whereas when my amp and cab are cranked the lows seem to dominate.

 

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I can honestly tell you, with shield in my hand for the incoming flaming stones that will be thrown at me, that it sounded fantastic even with cabinet and microphone emulation pumping through the V30s.

 

After my 1.6 seconds of being in shock and awe, I decided to plug in my XLR cable into the Behringer/Squier setup to A/B the rigs. They sounded very very very very close, but with the PA set up lacking a bit of low end. All it took was a small boost from the mixers bass knob (mind you I keep the EQ flat) to get them in the same chest-pumping territory.

 

 

I don't doubt it. I'm now running FRFR with an L2T, but for the better part of a year I was running into a Carving TS100 power amp, and Marshall 4x12. I kept the POD'S output on studio/direct for everything...mic and cab sims and all. I tried using pre-amp only models with the "correct" output mode for my rig, and was greeted with chainsaw-esque tones that I found unworkable, no matter how much tweaking I did. So I stuck with what worked. Required little more than dialing back the low end a bit.

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I can also attest to having success running into a power amp and cab while leaving on the cab sims.  A while back I even ran my old XT Live into the front end of a tube amp with all the sims still on.  

 

I'm not saying that's the best way to do it, but I think people get too hung up on how things "should" be run.  If it sounds good it sounds good.  

 

For the last few years though I've gone all direct with an Alto TS110 as my stage monitor and wouldn't go back to lugging around a tube rig if someone gave it to me :)

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I get the same comments from my drummer, that I lose too much low end when I'm not doing the 4CM with my Marshall.  But I can't tell much of a difference.  In fact, the Marshall has been pretty temperamental lately, and the POD direct has a consistent sound.  I may sell the Marshall someday.

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...lugging around a tube rig..

One of the biggest reasons I went digital in the first place. I plan on running FRFR live, but it sure is good to have options.

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The first time (years ago before all of this digital hullabaloo) that I played in a band that used tiny little pignose sized amps on stage, I felt a little silly. I mean, I really felt like I was 'faking it' -- all of the dancing around and songs about teen angst, while I could barely hear myself. How does one 'get into it' at those volumes. Hence, I was faking it. 

 

Fast forward a few decades, having a lot more different sized venue experiences under the belt --- I learned to ignore 'the push'. I love 'the push' but it isn't needed for a good show, and sometimes is simply not going to happen no matter how loud you play. 

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I love 'the push' but it isn't needed for a good show, and sometimes is simply not going to happen no matter how loud you play.

Totally agree. Some folks just can't do without it. Maybe my drummer has tinnitus, he is a _very_ loud drummer

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Totally agree. Some folks just can't do without it. Maybe my drummer has tinnitus, he is a _very_ loud drummer

 

All drummers are deaf...I consider it one of their best assets. :D

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So, now that I know that I could conceivably play with my amp using the 4 cable method and PA at the same time, is there any way to control my amps volume, in which the knobs now are completely useless for some reason?

 

The Master knob on my pod controls both levels

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4cm only works when there's an fx loop in the preset, otherwise you're just running out of the pod into the amp's power amp section, which is why the amp's controls don't work.

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I haven't tried with HD, but when I was using my XT with amp modelings into a guitar amp I'd always keep the cab models on. I tried many times without them but it was just a horrible sizzle.

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Being both a guitar player and drummer (I play in two bands), I think what he's trying to tell you is he can't hear you.  If you think drums are loud when you're playing the guitar, then he can't hear you.  Drums are about 5 times louder sounding to the drummer...and the guitar is about half the volume (or less) for the drummer than what you hear.

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4cm only works when there's an fx loop in the preset, otherwise you're just running out of the pod into the amp's power amp section, which is why the amp's controls don't work.

Can you please elaborate in how this could be done?

 

Being both a guitar player and drummer (I play in two bands), I think what he's trying to tell you is he can't hear you.  If you think drums are loud when you're playing the guitar, then he can't hear you.  Drums are about 5 times louder sounding to the drummer...and the guitar is about half the volume (or less) for the drummer than what you hear.

He can definitely hear me. He just thinks that there's something missing. I turned the bass up on the mixer and he thought it was much better

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The way 4cm and the fx loop work is like this. In a physical amp setup, you usually want wah and distortion before the preamp (stompboxes/pedalboard), time based fx like delay and reverb between the preamp and power amp (rack fx). With the pod, you put the guitar into the pod's input, place your wah/compression/distortion fx blocks, follow this with an fx loop block, followed by phaser/delay/reverb blocks. The pod's FX LOOP BLOCK takes the signal out the pod's FX SEND JACK to the amp's input. The signal passes through the amp's preamp section, then out the amp's FX LOOP SEND to the pod's FX RETURN JACK and FX LOOP BLOCK. The signal then passes through the phaser/delay/reverb blocks to the pod's OUTPUT JACK, which takes it to the amp's FX RETURN, from which it enters the power amp and on to the speaker. In other words, all the pod's fx blocks which come before the FX LOOP BLOCK are before the amp (your physical pedalboard/stompbox equivalent), the amp's preamp is in the pod's fx loop, and everything after the FX LOOP BLOCK is in the amp's fx loop (your rack fx equivalent).

 

GUITAR-->POD INPUT-->WAH/COMP/DIST BLOCKS-->FX LOOP BLOCK-->POD FX LOOP SEND-->AMP INPUT/PREAMP SECTION-->AMP FX LOOP SEND-->POD FX LOOP RETURN-->-->FX LOOP BLOCK-->PHASE/DELAY/REVERB BLOCKS-->POD OUTPUT-->AMP FX LOOP RETURN-->POWER AMP SECTION-->SPEAKER

 

Without the FX LOOP BLOCK, the signal goes from the pod's input, through whatever fx (including pod amps), and out the pod's output to the amp's power amp section, thus bypassing the amp's preamp section and all the amp's volume and tone controls.

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Here's what I'm physically doing with my cabling:

 

Guitar > Pod guitar in

 

Pod effects loop out > Amp guitar in

 

Amp effects loop out > Pod effects loop return

 

Pod unbalanced out > Amp effects loop return

 

I fully intended to bypass my amps' preamp section. I have no FX LOOP block anywhere. I'm running a patch with dual amps and no effects whatsoever. What I'm trying to accomplish is a way to control the level of what's going into the amp without disturbing the XLR feed.

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I usually use a SVMKII 212 for gigs, but tried my POD HD for a few small shows and practice through a small powered monitor. Sounds great (especially with new global EQ setting). Next gig has all amps and drums baffled with a good sound engineer, so musicians can't hear my amp anyway. I'll go direct to PA from the POD HD. I'll still bring the amp and leave it in car for backup. Wish me luck!

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I get the same comments from my drummer, that I lose too much low end when I'm not doing the 4CM with my Marshall.  But I can't tell much of a difference.  In fact, the Marshall has been pretty temperamental lately, and the POD direct has a consistent sound.  I may sell the Marshall someday.

yeah drummers. its funny how they like to tell you what they think. wish more of them would learn to tune their drums instead of having me do it for them lol!

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Now now, let's not turn this into a drummer-bashing thread laugh.gif

 

It's a good thing L6 doesn't do drum modeling!

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yeah drummers. its funny how they like to tell you what they think. wish more of them would learn to tune their drums instead of having me do it for them lol!

I believe that's the first time I've seen the words "drummer" and "think" in the same sentence...;)

 

All kidding aside, I really don't underdstand how they get all 4 limbs doing different things at the same time. A good drummer is like a good auto mechanic...once you find one, keep him.

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I really don't underdstand how they get all 4 limbs doing different things at the same time.

I've played drums for 11 years and all the coordination involved really opened up my guitar playing. I highly suggest getting into it

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Why did the drummer put his drumsticks on the dashboard?

So he could park in the handicap spot.

Dah dum splash!

I'm here all week...tip your waitress.

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I started as a drummer and still play them.I played a show in 2010 with John JR Robinson the most recorded drummer in history. He has been Quincy Jones drummer on everything he has produced for the last 30 years.That guy can play!

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I usually use a SVMKII 212 for gigs, but tried my POD HD for a few small shows and practice through a small powered monitor. Sounds great (especially with new global EQ setting). Next gig has all amps and drums baffled with a good sound engineer, so musicians can't hear my amp anyway. I'll go direct to PA from the POD HD. I'll still bring the amp and leave it in car for backup. Wish me luck!

Since this response, I've played direct to the PA with the POD HD on 6 gigs and a couple of rehearsals. I ran the pod mono to a direct box at -20db.There were a total of 4 sound engineers among the gigs. They were all able to dial in a good sound to the mains. The monitor mixes were a little shrill, so I may cut back some of the high end on the global EQ. Adjusting those settings on the monitor mix also helps. Setup and teardown are much faster with this setup, and I don't have to break my back hauling SV MKII 212.

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Thanks napy. I think I'm going to go the route of a Carvin dcm1000 and 2x12 cab on stage while going FOH together.

 

If the sound guy can't get me to sound good then he can mic me.

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If a sound guy can't make you sound good when going direct, you programmed the thing wrong. 

 

Putting a mic on an amp may help, but that only means that you allowed the amp's tone to change how you made patches. And there is nothing wrong with that. You just need to realize that you will always need to be mic'd, because your patches aren't made for direct. 

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Let the sound man earn his keep.

 

I'm running in direct mode. Patches sound fine through some PA speakers, great through some others, and not too good through some others.

 

Must you be so condescending and negative?

 

The sound guy in question is someone I deal with a lot at a club I play at. This will also be the first time I'm using the pod live. All I'm really hoping for is a good sound, no matter of what might color my tone

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I can second that Direct sounds (Full Amp + Cab + Mic) sound good even throzgh a Power Amp and real Cab.

So sometimes I keep the "Direct" setting from home (When I practice with Headphones) when I go to my band. Because, it soundsd good either.

 

Most of the time I do it like this:

I have my 4 Go-TO Patches for Clean, Crunch, Distortion and Solo, all on FS 5 - 8.

 

When I am at home I set the Output mode on Direct and jam away with my headphones.

When I eet my band I just set the Output Mode to Stack Power Amp and fire it up through my Magnum 44 Power Amp and a 2x12 V30 Cab.

 

It works wonderful.

Although recently I had to disable the Cab Sim when going through the real Cab. My patches are using the Mesa 412 V30 Cab Sim. And the Cab Sim and the real Cab with both the V30 was a bit Overkill. But it didn't sound nasty at all. Just a bit too high for my taste.

So I jst disabled the Cab Sim and now have 2 different banks for home direct and Band Power Amp, with the only difference one has Cab Sim, the other bank doesn't.

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