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stevevnicks

Avarage age group of the HD500\X User ?

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My folks did not like my music either!  But I agree much that is listened to today is not music IMO.  I am partial to music that features guitar playing and real singing.

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32 myself. I'm not surprised I'm one of the younger ones on this thread either. I agree with Charlie above. It seems folks younger than me are either into the pop-electronica music or whatever they're trying to pass off as "rap" these days. Both of which don't tend to use a lot of guitars.

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I should have added that I post from an Ipad I guess. At the NAMM show I did see several groups of young folks using elements of EDM and conventional instruments and doing some interesting things with it. Not as intersesting to me as Chad Wackermans solo drum peice at the QSC booth but still kind of compelling. They were definitely having a lot of fun.

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Movies that depict the reality of the struggle to become a great musician and improvise at a high level like "Bird" and recently "Whiplash" are not inspiring young people to be musicians . It is all American Idol and keeping up with The Kardashians.

But what the hell do I know? I still listen to Miles Davis records lol! My only real concern is that the art of being able to improvise i.e. make art right in front of an audience is slowly going away. The last student I had who was very gung ho about learning to be a jazz player looked at me like I was from Mars when I showed him one of my old beat up Real Books and told him to practice the heads to Autumn Leaves/ Take Five and Moments Notice for about 15 years and he might be able to sit in with some jazz players once in a while lol!

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Am I the youngest in here?? Im 21 years old and I bought my first Pod 4 months ago...

 

I never thought people at your age would tend to use digital equipment and stuff. I don't try to be mean, it's a compliment, don't get me wrong. My dad is around 60 and he can't even open a Personal Computer. And most of the older guys I know that play the guitar prefer tube amps and have never played through digital equipment. That's really nice! We 've got some bright and open-minded people in here!

I find your comments interesting and entertaining...I up voted you. At 46 years old I have been using technology my whole life much like many other people my age. My first computer had 2k of RAM and if I wanted a program, I likely had to write the code myself. I suspect the people who are in their 40's and 50's are less flustered by technology than you think. Technology is so much simpler today than in my day and therefore a device like the POD HD series will fluster us less than many of the younger players We are used to adapting to technology rather than expecting it to adapt to us.

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At the NAMM show I did see several groups of young folks using elements of EDM and conventional instruments and doing some interesting things with it. 

 

Growing up, I may have liked different types of music but I really only played on kind. Or, maybe it was because I was only hired to do one type --- its a chicken/egg situation. 

Today, I will play whatever. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I learned to never turn down a gig because its always money and exposure for the next gig, and the fact that you never know when your last gig may have been your last gig so take it when you can get it. 

 

But, EDM can be fun to play. Glow sticks. Blacklights. I have a couple guitars with UV graphics. A couple glowing skeleton costumes. Most of the music is pre-recorded, I am mostly there for the 'show' aspect of it and a couple live parts. 

*if I had an interest in being an EDM artist, my Pod makes all kinds of beeps, bings, and gnarly animal growls. 

 

 

Rap too. I started doing 'special guest' stuff for some live rap shows in the 90's. And I have since been doing studio work with them at least ten years.  

 

For me, I am not a 'member' of any band and not getting personally involved with their careers. I am just a guitar player that plays the guitar parts someone needs. 

 

 

 

It is all American Idol and keeping up with The Kardashians.

and told him to practice for about 15 

 

But parents aren't any better. They come in thinking that $100 a month is too much. PLUS they expect that their child will be done with lessons by the end of the month, and famous by the end of the year. 

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 The last student I had who was very gung ho about learning to be a jazz player looked at me like I was from Mars when I showed him one of my old beat up Real Books and told him to practice the heads to Autumn Leaves/ Take Five and Moments Notice for about 15 years and he might be able to sit in with some jazz players once in a while lol!

 

I think the above statement shows why children are looking at alternatives to guitar. Why would someone want to spend 15 years learning to play 3 songs and then be told they "might" get to play with some jazz musicians.

 

Music is by its very nature a performance art and if we encouraged musicians of all skill levels to perform more, it would do wonders for the art in general. When children learn a sport, for example, we don't tell them that they need to practice for 15 years and then maybe...just maybe they can find a few people to have a game with. Athletes play games right from the beginning. 

 

We need to have the same respect for the music student as we do for the athlete. That means we need to encourage the playing live of all musicians, especially the younger or beginning musician. 

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I find your comments interesting and entertaining...I up voted you.

 

He's 21. That means that I used my ART SGE Mach II (which was part of the rig my Pod replaced last year) longer than he was alive. 

Do you think these kids will ever be able to say they used a piece of digital equipment that long? 

I mean, how many of them are already talking about buying the next L6 unit when it comes out -- even though it hasn't even been announced yet. 

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Music is by its very nature a performance art and if we encouraged musicians of all skill levels to perform more, it would do wonders for the art in general. When children learn a sport, for example, we don't tell them that they need to practice for 15 years and then maybe...just maybe they can find a few people to have a game with. Athletes play games right from the beginning. 

 

 

But sports has a 'hierarchy' in place. You don't play with the teens when you are 8. You don't play with high school kids while you are a teen. Then you play college. Then you go pro. 

 

Music, on the other hand... 

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He's 21. That means that I used my ART SGE Mach II (which was part of the rig my Pod replaced last year) longer than he was alive. 

Do you think these kids will ever be able to say they used a piece of digital equipment that long? 

I mean, how many of them are already talking about buying the next L6 unit when it comes out -- even though it hasn't even been announced yet. 

I would be surprised if they would! I must admit that I occasionally suffer from the "Upgrade Sickness" from time to time. 

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But sports has a 'hierarchy' in place. You don't play with the teens when you are 8. You don't play with high school kids while you are a teen. Then you play college. Then you go pro. 

 

Music, on the other hand... 

Great point...we need to find a similar system to encourage the younger or beginning players to perform. Instead, guitar players tend to ridicule other players as having no talent or just plain bad. I have been on numerous boards where someone will post a performance and with in seconds there will be half a dozen people rip it to shreds. 

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hah yea i cant play very well at all lol although my friends who can play say im doing ok

 

... but to be honest if you know your cra! then it is kind of embarrassing when some who can play says that sounded ok

 

.but better than being told look mate put the guitar down your a no hoper lol

 

for me learning is not to become the best but just to enjoy what ever music you can come up with .. i know it would be different for someone who wants to turn pro, but like i say not everyone does.

 

there are a few local people who have never been given a lesson in there lives all self taught probs played 20 years plus although they are most probs limited in styles they play they are brill at what they do and thats there own stuff .. not copying what already been done as such.

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I think the above statement shows why children are looking at alternatives to guitar. Why would someone want to spend 15 years learning to play 3 songs and then be told they "might" get to play with some jazz musicians.

 

Music is by its very nature a performance art and if we encouraged musicians of all skill levels to perform more, it would do wonders for the art in general. When children learn a sport, for example, we don't tell them that they need to practice for 15 years and then maybe...just maybe they can find a few people to have a game with. Athletes play games right from the beginning. 

 

We need to have the same respect for the music student as we do for the athlete. That means we need to encourage the playing live of all musicians, especially the younger or beginning musician.

 

I was specifically taliking about being a good jazz musician.I have played many gigs/shows with some great ones. It is an entirely different skillset from the one used to play pop music. As far as athletes go my sons who were good baseball players both quit playing when they became tired of being rewarded for mediocrity.You don't learn anything from being told everything you do is great. My teachers were tough on me and I am glad they were as I can play almost any gig I am asked to do.Kids today cant even sing and play at the same time because they think it's too hard lol! My teachers told me I had better learn to not only sing and play at the same time but sing very well and front a band if necessary . Many of my former students are able to improvise and sing and play at a high level. Thier chops that they have learned on their own speak for themselves. I teach improvisation . How to have your own voice. I dont teach you how to play your favorite song.Thats not building musicianship skills.It is just useless mimicry and wont give the student a lasting desire to play or a lifetime of music appreciation whether they coninue to play or not.IMHO.

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Feel free to vote me back down lol! I don't do the " voting" thing here. I do that at my local polling station.

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He's 21. That means that I used my ART SGE Mach II (which was part of the rig my Pod replaced last year) longer than he was alive. 

Do you think these kids will ever be able to say they used a piece of digital equipment that long? 

I mean, how many of them are already talking about buying the next L6 unit when it comes out -- even though it hasn't even been announced yet. 

 

What is your point though? The greatest thing about Technology is that it keeps moving on, offering better and more affordable/convenient choices most of the time. So I don't find anything wrong in trying new things.

 

To the contrary, I find it incredibly interesting how all these new digital equipment manage to emulate the warmth and the character of real tube amps or even make new amp sims that couldn't exist in the real world. Therefore, I love learning about new equipment and I am always open to new things.

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I was specifically taliking about being a good jazz musician.I have played many gigs/shows with some great ones. It is an entirely different skillset from the one used to play pop music. As far as athletes go my sons who were good baseball players both quit playing when they became tired of being rewarded for mediocrity.You don't learn anything from being told everything you do is great. My teachers were tough on me and I am glad they were as I can play almost any gig I am asked to do.Kids today cant even sing and play at the same time because they think it's too hard lol! My teachers told me I had better learn to not only sing and play at the same time but sing very well and front a band if necessary . Many of my former students are able to improvise and sing and play at a high level. Thier chops that they have learned on their own speak for themselves. I teach improvisation . How to have your own voice. I dont teach you how to play your favorite song.Thats not building musicianship skills.It is just useless mimicry and wont give the student a lasting desire to play or a lifetime of music appreciation whether they coninue to play or not.IMHO.

My post still applies. We could discuss this all day without either of us bending.You believe 15 years of practice working on 3 songs is necessary to be able to preform and I think a musician should begin by practicing and performing from day one. It isn't about rewarding mediocrity because that doesn't help anyone. I do agree with you that technique should always be first and foremost in any formal guitar education. Songs are only the means to an end.

 

When Jazz was in its hay day, there were clubs on every corner in every major city. Many of these musicians performed with substantially less than 15 years practice. Jazz has lost the title of America's music simply because no one wants to study for 15 years with basically nothing to show for it. Chick Webb for example, had his own band by the time he was 17. Benny Goodman was 14 when he started playing professionally. I think the steady decline in the popularity of Jazz music is because of the attitude that somehow Jazz is better than the other forms of music. Jazz has been hijacked by an attitude that quite frankly is contrary to the roots of the music. 

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My post still applies. We could discuss this all day without either of us bending.You believe 15 years of practice working on 3 songs is necessary to be able to preform and I think a musician should begin by practicing and performing from day one. It isn't about rewarding mediocrity because that doesn't help anyone. I do agree with you that technique should always be first and foremost in any formal guitar education. Songs are only the means to an end.

 

When Jazz was in its hay day, there were clubs on every corner in every major city. Many of these musicians performed with substantially less than 15 years practice. Jazz has lost the title of America's music simply because no one wants to study for 15 years with basically nothing to show for it. Chick Webb for example, had his own band by the time he was 17. Benny Goodman was 14 when he started playing professionally. I think the steady decline in the popularity of Jazz music is because of the attitude that somehow Jazz is better than the other forms of music. Jazz has been hijacked by an attitude that quite frankly is contrary to the roots of the music.

There's also a great deal to be said for innate talent. Some players (no matter what their chosen instrument) will get to a level in 5 years, that it will take someone else 20 years to get to (if they get there at all). Lord knows we ain't all Mozarts and Beethovens...

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I would be surprised if they would! I must admit that I occasionally suffer from the "Upgrade Sickness" from time to time. 

 

HEHE, ugrade sickness. 

I had My Pod for almost a year before I found out that the vocoder was an 'actual' vocoder and not just an auto-wah/envelope filter type sound. 

I felt like I got a new toy, simply by opening a forum topic! 

You should download the patch RoR Babymetal. I have no use for it, but I want to find a reason to use it. THAT is the kind of stuff that can cure upgrade sickness. Discovering that the Pod can make random/useless stuff like that, it is like buying a new toy every time you twist a knob. 

 

 

My fear with the Pod is not that I am going to want something new, but rather... 

Since it is so computer dependent, that I am going to run into a situation where a perfectly working unit is almost no good because pc tech has moved beyond the point of even supporting it. 

I hope that the drivers are updated until the day I die --- and then 30 years after that. 

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There's also a great deal to be said for innate talent. Some players (no matter what their chosen instrument) will get to a level in 5 years, that it will take someone else 20 years to get to (if they get there at all). Lord knows we ain't all Mozarts and Beethovens...

I agree. Talent or not, 15 years and 3 pieces of music simply a ridiculous standard. Its an impossible standard that has no bearing in the real world. Standards like this will simply cause a potential Mozart or Marcus Miller to look elsewhere.

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HEHE, ugrade sickness. 

I had My Pod for almost a year before I found out that the vocoder was an 'actual' vocoder and not just an auto-wah/envelope filter type sound. 

I felt like I got a new toy, simply by opening a forum topic! 

You should download the patch RoR Babymetal. I have no use for it, but I want to find a reason to use it. THAT is the kind of stuff that can cure upgrade sickness. Discovering that the Pod can make random/useless stuff like that, it is like buying a new toy every time you twist a knob. 

 

 

My fear with the Pod is not that I am going to want something new, but rather... 

Since it is so computer dependent, that I am going to run into a situation where a perfectly working unit is almost no good because pc tech has moved beyond the point of even supporting it. 

I hope that the drivers are updated until the day I die --- and then 30 years after that. 

I have a Mac and I suspect that I will have to upgrade the POD long before its dead. I keep finding new sounds on my POD and that has kept my "Upgrade Sickness" at bay. I have had a bunch of multi-effect pedals but this is the one that has been the best by far.

 

Saying that, my local Pawnshop has a used Zoom MS-100BT for sale and I will likely pick it up next week simply because its so compact and battery powered...two things my HD500 is lacking. The last time I was performing live my POD HD500 was a little tricky because the stage was so small.

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Maybe we can agree on this one thing.The more you know the more you can do.

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I agree. Talent or not, 15 years and 3 pieces of music simply a ridiculous standard. Its an impossible standard that has no bearing in the real world. Standards like this will simply cause a potential Mozart or Marcus Miller to look elsewhere.

I work with several gentlemen with doctorates in jazz composition and theory who would disagree with you.I was just telling this student who could already play pop and rock pretty well what he was getting into by maybe disappearing down a jazz rathole. Along the way some of my teachers like my junior high art teacher save me a lot of trouble. She told me I sucked at it after one week. I was crushed but I got over it and took a music theory class that worked out very well for me.Your side of this isn't wrong but neither is mine. If everyone had the same approach to teaching the world would suck worse than it does. Jazz is not performance art. Pop and rock is about a performance in fact it is almost all about how it is performed/delivered/ looks etc...which is great. But they are two very different languages. I know as I speak both of them fluently. And I love both of them. We agree more than we disagree but I have enjoyed reading your thoughts.I learn a lot more from reading opinions I disagree with than the ones I agree with.

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But telling someone that they need to practice for 15 years is more realistic than telling them that they will be a appearing at the iHeart Festival next year. 

And yes, people have that delusion in their head. I've had people recording their lessons so that they can have clips to add to their youtube, and to have clips for when they get famous and they show the 'growing up montage'. 

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Maybe we can agree on this one thing.The more you know the more you can do.

We can agree on this. It is a universal truth. Another universal truth is the more you try and fail the better you will get. Performing in front of an audience provides the music student with a great opportunity to push the boundaries of their knowledge and skills. The real advantage of playing in front of an audience is it takes the student away from the safe confines of a practice session and places the student outside of their comfort zone. We only grow when we push past our boundaries. 

 

Not every person is willing to push their boundaries. That is more harmful to a person than all the false praise in the world. 

 

I work with several gentlemen with doctorates in jazz composition and theory who would disagree with you.I was just telling this student who could already play pop and rock pretty well what he was getting into by maybe disappearing down a jazz rathole. Along the way some of my teachers like my junior high art teacher save me a lot of trouble. She told me I sucked at it after one week. I was crushed but I got over it and took a music theory class that worked out very well for me.Your side of this isn't wrong but neither is mine. If everyone had the same approach to teaching the world would suck worse than it does. Jazz is not performance art. Pop and rock is about a performance in fact it is almost all about how it is performed/delivered/ looks etc...which is great. But they are two very different languages. I know as I speak both of them fluently. And I love both of them. We agree more than we disagree but I have enjoyed reading your thoughts.I learn a lot more from reading opinions I disagree with than the ones I agree with.

 

I have my own Doctorate friend in Composition who supports my position. Our positions are not that different except in the approach. Jazz simply is a performance art. The definition of performance is as follows: "An act of staging or presenting a play, concert, or other form of entertainment." 

 

Its important to discuss these things because there is no one size fits all solution...and I am glad for that. 

 

My concern is Jazz has fallen from the most popular musical form to the least popular musical form. In 2011 Jazz accounted for only 1.4% of music sales. Jazz needs to get back to its roots. Jazz was the popular music of its time because it was approachable. It was something everyone wanted to listen to and every musician wanted to play. Sadly, Jazz has been turned into something that would be unrecognizable to its earliest performers. Jazz in its early days was gritty, sexy, loud and filled with emotion. Jazz was the music of the Speak-Easy. Now its subdued, over produced and as far away from sexy as humanly possible. Its very sad. I think the current attitude that somehow a Jazz musician is better than other musicians is responsible for this decline. Its an elitist attitude and one that is disingenuous to the heritage of the Jazz.

 

But telling someone that they need to practice for 15 years is more realistic than telling them that they will be a appearing at the iHeart Festival next year. 

And yes, people have that delusion in their head. I've had people recording their lessons so that they can have clips to add to their youtube, and to have clips for when they get famous and they show the 'growing up montage'. 

Its simply wrong to feed someones delusions. I made it clear to both my children that they are good at somethings and not good at others. The trick is to try as many things as possible to discover which is which!

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Maybe we can agree on this one thing.The more you know the more you can do.

 

I'd say the more you can put what you know into practice, the more you can do. The way jazz has evolved is pretty interesting. It started as music of the lower classes in some ways, but it's slowly been moved into the realm of high culture. That's not to say that some of the early pioneers of jazz weren't highly educated - many of them were. But I think there was always an ethos of it being a genre that was open and inviting to all. I think telling someone that they have to play for years and years before having the hope of playing with "real" musicians is counter-productive. I like Victor Wooten's analogy comparing music to a language. When little kids are learning a language, no one expects them to speak perfectly. Mistakes are expected, even encouraged. Also, the more they can interact with adult speakers, the better. That's how they learn. So I think encouraging students to sit in with groups beyond their skill level can be a great thing. I know it was a big part of how I learned to play. I was forced to learn just so I could interact with those around me.

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I realize it's all personal preference, but as far as I'm concerned, if EDM is the future, then there's nowhere to go but up...wanna be a "songwriter"? There's an app for that...push this button, and POOF!...you're a "musician". Don't forget your mouse-head helmet....ugh.

 

I actually like deadmau5 quite a bit. He's been extremely transparent about the whole "spacebar DJ" thing, and his productions tend to eschew the myriad tropes found in modern EDM. If you have a few hours, you can even watch him work on a new track in real time. The nine-minute version of "Strobe" is one of my favorite dance records, but yeah, 90% of the rest of that genre bores me to tears.

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I'd say the more you can put what you know into practice, the more you can do. The way jazz has evolved is pretty interesting. It started as music of the lower classes in some ways, but it's slowly been moved into the realm of high culture. That's not to say that some of the early pioneers of jazz weren't highly educated - many of them were. But I think there was always an ethos of it being a genre that was open and inviting to all. I think telling someone that they have to play for years and years before having the hope of playing with "real" musicians is counter-productive. I like Victor Wooten's analogy comparing music to a language. When little kids are learning a language, no one expects them to speak perfectly. Mistakes are expected, even encouraged. Also, the more they can interact with adult speakers, the better. That's how they learn. So I think encouraging students to sit in with groups beyond their skill level can be a great thing. I know it was a big part of how I learned to play. I was forced to learn just so I could interact with those around me.

Well said Phil_M. I hadn't heard that analogy before but it is basically what I am saying...but in a far more eloquent form. 

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JTSC777, I would like to say that I've helped people get started in music and given lessons.  The first thing I do is to get them playing something they've heard and mimic other songs.  This gets them interested so they can put in the years it takes to become an accomplished musician.

 

I don't think you really do this, but it sounds like from your posts that you immediately push beginners into improv techniques and other advanced methods right away and discourage them from just being a cover-type guitarist.

 

Showing a beginner how to do a bar chord and figure out a few simple songs can be the first step into making that person a great guitarist.

 

As far as anyone with a doctorate saying anything lese, I don't care.  I've worked with a lot of people with PHDs that didn't have a clue.

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Over 60. Couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't lug around my amp anymore.

Ditto amp weight...that's why I bring my wife to gigs!

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I've worked with a lot of people with PHDs that didn't have a clue.

 

 

+1000  (any degree come to think of it)

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I had videos on MTV (which shows you how old I am, lol) before I graduated high school. So, to have a degree in music to prove that I know how to play seems a little silly. 

 

But, for the record, I did further my education, both music and other. 

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I think when young folk start learning an instrument you know they are going to succeed when they are single minded about things I don't think you need to learn the dots or go to university to do this . I remember a few years ago visiting my friend one of his sons had just had a squire strat  and of coarse I was needed to tune it . The lad at the time told me that Blink 182 was his inspiration and as a band no one could touch them then I started to say well the guy who plays lead in the band must have got some ideas from someone and I could tell he was not going to have that so I left the discussion as I then remembered what I was like at that age. For me it was the Beatles and in them days the only way of learning guitar was from a book by Bert Weedon called "Play in a day" which was a bit ambitious or the only people giving lessons where classical players. Anyhow I started to learn chords and virtually locked myself in my room and only stopped when my fingers were too sore this went on until I was satisfied I could play any of the chords from sheet music so I was just as single minded as the young guy above but it started me off just as Blink 182 gave him the notion to pick up the guitar. A few years later I was up playing at a party at his Dads and he come up and asked me where I had got this and that lick from and I said well probably started out by someone from Chicago in the 1950's and I had probably heard one of the U.K players like Clapton playing it then I tried and put my own slant on it and I think he kind of accepted what I was saying a few years ago. 

 

I think the best thing to learn quick is always play with other players preferably better than you or at least swap ideas. I still can not read music at 65 it has never hindered me or stopped my enjoyment of playing or lost me a gig. I almost started to learn in the 90's when we invited a keyboard player round and he could not ad lib and wanted someone to write the score out for him and it kind of put me off thinking I would play like a robot if I learned to read music.

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