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M20D - new venue just by setting the trim??


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Hi,

I have bought a M20D and it just will be delivered in the next days. But I am very familiar with it by reading the manual 100 times. Amazing stuff.

 

By reading all the Information a question comes up: So if I have set up the M20D in a perfect way and everything is saved - is it possible just to use auto trim at an other venue with the stored setup and the Monitor and Master Output can stay as it was stored (more or less depending on environmental sound influences) ?

 

I'm talking about a rock band with the same setup from Gig to gig, but if the Amp-Mics or Drum-Mics not at exact the same position we need to re-calibrate the Input Trim.

 

What's your experience about my question?

 

Thanks a lot

Dieter

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The simple answer is yes but really if you are careful about how you mic up from gig to gig you'll find you have very little to tweak at all. We've moved away from micing our amps and di them into the PA, using the onstage cabs more as monitors than anything else. We've also ditched the live kit and gone electronic, wouldn't suit your rock band but we don't generally have to re trim just eq a little. You can then save the "setup", we do it by venue name, and then when you re-visit that venue you just load your setup from last time and you have minimum tweaking and quick sound checking. Read the manual again and checkout the section on "scenes". These are saved within "setups" and allow you to have effects, eqs, etc relative to individual songs. Brilliant!  The M20 is gonna make your job a whole lot easier but in truth if you get more accurate about your micing, then the whole deal will get easier. 

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If it is the same setup and mic positioning then the gain will probably be not so much different. I would adjust the monitor and main output levels at every show starting from "off" and carefully bringing them up- you might be done after that.

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I reckon quadcabby has summed up pretty nicely there.

 

The only things I'd add:

 

Try to use the *exact* same mic for the same purpose each time.

DI based inputs (keyboard, bass plus radio mics etc) typically don't need trimming each time, but wired mics (drum in particular) will. Using the same mic for the purpose each time will eliminate some of the variation.

 

Contrary to what you might hope though, I've found that whilst little occurs when we re-trim, the "mix" still needs setting on a per venue basis. A perfect mix in one venue can sound muddy or shrill in another. The size of the room, number of speakers you're running out, subs and no subs all have an influence, not to mention environmental variables like soft furnishings etc all act to soak or reflect sound. Sometimes it will be as simple as playing with the master output EQ, but you're more likely to find that you need to adjust channel levels to find the sweet spot for the room.

 

What you will notice tho is that by saving the setup (remember to save as a fresh setup each time you visit a new venue), you are already "nearly there" the next time. Each successive outing, you'll get quicker, not only in navigating round the UI, but in recognising the adjustments you need to make based on what you hear back. This is particularly easy if you save a recording. Just always take into account that when you soundcheck, record and then mix from the recording that the backline isn't present and adjust accordingly.

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Thank you so much for the answers,

 

yes, the influence of different venues can be significant. I just talk about more similar (but not identical venues). And what I expect is (in best case) after auto trim the setup that I just have to adjust the Main EQ and Effects. Hopefully :-)

 

But I have another question, SiWatts69 mentioned to record and adjust with the recordings. But in the case of small venues and the Drum set has just a Kick Drum Mic it doesn't work - how do you handle this? Mic the whole Set??

And, What's about the Influence of the direct Drum Sound and the Guitar Amp Influence? Does this really work without having the Band on the stage?

 

Hope my English is good enough - I'm not a native speker :D

CU

Dieter

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Nothing wrong with your English :-)

 

If you are in a smaller venue where you aren't pushing everything through the PA, creating your mix from a recording is more tricky, but you can at least get relative levels of everything that is going through the PA and then just adjust the master to match the backline volume (or turn down the backline to match an appropriate PA level!)

 

And what I expect is (in best case) after auto trim the setup that I just have to adjust the Main EQ and Effects. Hopefully :-)

In reality, the trim levels themselves shouldn't alter much assuming you use the same mics and mic positioning (as has been said above). I run auto-trim every outing on all inputs as a matter of course and rarely does any change occur. BUT we do regularly have to alter channel and master levels and the master EQ.

 

But in the case of small venues and the Drum set has just a Kick Drum Mic it doesn't work - how do you handle this? Mic the whole Set??

Mic the kit appropriate to the venue. If it's a really small venue we sometimes don't mic drums at all.

But as soon as I drop the kick mic in, we always mic snare too.

Finally we add in a pair of overheads (I have a RODE NT4).

But whatever you end up doing, an incomplete setup will always be a little more tricky to deal with. Get it to a point where you are all happy than have a spotter in your audience who can let you know whether the PA elements (vocals etc) need to rise after your first song, and if so, simply turn the masters up slightly.

 

 

And, What's about the Influence of the direct Drum Sound and the Guitar Amp Influence? Does this really work without having the Band on the stage?

This is an issue that you will learn with usage. The amount of backline bleed can vary dramatically from venue to venue. For your first few outings, you'd ideally have someone out front with an ipad who can adjust the 'backline through PA' levels appropriately. But as a starting point, if you created a perfect mix in the PA from recording, and then took around 3-4db off any *amplified* backline instrumentation you'd not be far off. Don't take any off drums. It sometimes helps if backline amps are placed in such a way that they act more like monitors. Our guitarist has his amp on a stand facing back toward him, ie it doesn't contribute to forward sound. Bass player often turns his amp so it doesn't face straight forwards.

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Personally when using onstage amps, I try to get as low as possible stage volume and make it up with FOH and monitoring.  I never re-adjust the trims, the amps get adjusted while I check the signal coming into the board and tell the player to raise or lower his clean channel then his crunch channel until the level coming into the board matches the already set trim. 

 

The comments about room size, shape, furniture, wall and ceiling treatments are all valid concerns.  I find it to be less of a concern with this system though. To be honest, I've gotten so spoiled by this system that I hardly ever even check from venue to venue.  I play in 3 bands so I have 3 different set ups.. but that's it...then it's just a master volume thing for me.  That said I am using the line 6 speakers as well so I don't know if you already have the stagescape speakers but it will definitely make a difference in this regard.

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Personally when using onstage amps, I try to get as low as possible stage volume and make it up with FOH and monitoring.

I had an experience with a different band where I'd pushed them to do just that. Their lead guitarist dutifully wound his amp back but to a point where there was so much trim added by auto-trim that the mic was constantly whistling through the night. I was desperately trying to find which mic was feeding back but oh so carefully neglected to check the guitar cab mics! It was only when reviewing the nights recordings that it became obvious that it was that particular mic. The only hint that it might be was when, at the end of their second set, the band nipped off stage before encore and the bass player leant his bass against the guitar cab at which point it set the feedback off again. Too late to sort by that point :-( As it was a guitar preset, FBS was not engaged, hense it wailing all night! Fortunately, it wasn't a terrible wail, just an underlying whistle.

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The simple answer is yes but really if you are careful about how you mic up from gig to gig you'll find you have very little to tweak at all. We've moved away from micing our amps and di them into the PA, using the onstage cabs more as monitors than anything else. We've also ditched the live kit and gone electronic, wouldn't suit your rock band but we don't generally have to re trim just eq a little. You can then save the "setup", we do it by venue name, and then when you re-visit that venue you just load your setup from last time and you have minimum tweaking and quick sound checking. Read the manual again and checkout the section on "scenes". These are saved within "setups" and allow you to have effects, eqs, etc relative to individual songs. Brilliant!  The M20 is gonna make your job a whole lot easier but in truth if you get more accurate about your micing, then the whole deal will get easier. 

I was wondering which presets you use on your electronic drums? Do you use individual outputs from your drum module, or just the main out. I have to mix a td20 kit in a few weeks and wonder what others have experienced?

 

Cheers

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If I'm honest I can't remember which presets we used, but we've a rehearsal tomorrow evening (17th) so I'll check and get back to you. That in itself kind of tells you how much messing we have to do with it from gig to gig!! The module our drummer uses doesn't have separate outs, just L/R so that's what we used. I did have to get the drummer to EQ some of the booming that was present in the toms, and put a bit of top on the kick so it wasn't "woolly". I would prefer individual outs as it would undoubtedly improve the overall sound. That said we still have the gear snobs who wander over when we're setting up and say something like,"how come your using a practice kit?", which really bugs our drummer. It's great to watch their faces as in one number he then plays congas with his sticks whilst playing Hi Hat, Snare and Kick with his feet. He uses 2 Hi Hats side by side with one triggering a snare. They usually then come over and compliment him on what a good sound he gets, so we must be doing something right I guess.

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Cool. We have 8 outs on the TD30. I think someone who hits things and counts has to much to worry about than setting the levels of the kit.  :) We have done several gigs with the Roland VDrums. It is really awesome to have drums with a volume knob. I have setup initially as Kick Snare HH and Ride and will use stereo directs for Toms and another for Cymbals. I'm sure we can get a tight sound.

 

Cheers

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Sorry my reply is late!! I checked our desk and decide it was easier to take pictures to show what we're using. Obviously we have 2 channels L & R set up the same for preset and EQ. We did "deep tweak" the EQ.

Hope this helps.

IMG_1654.jpg

IMG_1655.jpg

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