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ice9mike

Idealscale request for DT backwards compatibility. PLEASE VOTE!!

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yes, just no helix control over topologies/models... on release....

via the l6 link yes but via midi templete in the helix i think the changing of the models in the dt amp may be possible at release...i just hope they may make some templetes avail for doing this via the midi contol.

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I have a DT25 and a HD500x...  I thought for sure this rig would get me the tones and flexibility I was looking for.  Can't say I've got what I was hoping for and I have since given up on the HD500x... (I'll be selling mine soon)

 

When I watched the videos of the Helix, I quickly got on the pre-order list.  Based on the price tag and features they were talking about.  For the price tag, I'm hoping it's all they've built it up to be.  

 

It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I found out that the Helix wasn't going to be able to control the topology of the DT amp.  I am going to cast my vote in favor of DT HX integration as soon as a moderator approves me.  Like many other people who's comments I've read, loosing that functionality seems like a step backwards.  Yes, using Midi CC to change the DT amp settings might get the job done, who wants to do that extra work?  One of the nice parts about the Helix is that the UI looks very easy to work with... now I need to go back to creating Midi CC?  BassAckwards! Hopefully more DT owners who are interested in purchasing (or have purchased) the HX come out of the shadows to support the cause.  Sorry for the rant... I'm new to the community here, but I've owned Line 6 since the original Vetta days.  I have stacks of Line 6 products in my home studio...  still waiting for the right fit to replace my go to rig.  Hoping Helix paired with my DT25 will be it.  

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Yes, using Midi CC to change the DT amp settings might get the job done, who wants to do that extra work?  

 

MIDI implementation doesn't allow you to use different amps/preamps in each of 2 DT amps because they both are listening to MIDI channel 1. 

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MIDI implementation doesn't allow you to use different amps/preamps in each of 2 DT amps because they both are listening to MIDI channel 1. 

 

I must have misread another post... :unsure:  Thanks for the heads up.  Either way, still would like to see the Helix control the DT like the HD does.

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I must have misread another post... :unsure:  Thanks for the heads up.  Either way, still would like to see the Helix control the DT like the HD does.

 

Congrats on getting your Helix! Sounds like people are really loving them and they have only just got started. Thanks for the posts.

 

I would like to see the same L6 Link functionality in the Helix too! I was an early voter for it.

 

On a side note, I would also like to hear how the AX8 and the BIAS Head sound. Lots of options these days.

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Wow I had no idea. Canceling my pre-order immediately. How in the world can Line 6 justify this on a $1500 flagship front-end? 

 

What's the point of using the Line 6 Link without topology switching?

 

I really love Line 6 product but its as if they are intentionally leaving out key features just to irritate their loyal customers. (Power switch on HD series for example?)

 

Buh bye

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Wow I had no idea. Canceling my pre-order immediately. How in the world can Line 6 justify this on a $1500 flagship front-end?

What's the point of using the Line 6 Link without topology switching?

I really love Line 6 product but its as if they are intentionally leaving out key features just to irritate their loyal customers. (Power switch on HD series for example?)

Buh bye

 

Its your decision obviously, but you should remember that the DT series is constructed around the HD amp modeling, not the new HX amp modeling.  One might think that the power section is completely separate from the pre section in a DT but I don't think that is the case.  There is a lot of integration in the signal flow to enable all the features like LVM, Direct Out, etc.  I have no doubt that if it was at all possible they would have included it.  My bet is it can't physically be done due to the actual construction of a DT amp and its internal signal flow.  That said, the Helix signal fed to the DT FX return still does the trick.  The workarounds are to use midi or program the DT using DT Edit so the topology switch actually sets the topology you want.  Not that hard to select topology or class using the switches.  I can't see canceling the Helix order if it does everything else you need and sounds better that the HD just for that feature.  Just my opinion...

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Its your decision obviously, but you should remember that the DT series is constructed around the HD amp modeling, not the new HX amp modeling.  One might think that the power section is completely separate from the pre section in a DT but I don't think that is the case.  There is a lot of integration in the signal flow to enable all the features like LVM, Direct Out, etc.  I have no doubt that if it was at all possible they would have included it.  My bet is it can't physically be done due to the actual construction of a DT amp and its internal signal flow.  That said, the Helix signal fed to the DT FX return still does the trick.  The workarounds are to use midi or program the DT using DT Edit so the topology switch actually sets the topology you want.  Not that hard to select topology or class using the switches.  I can't see canceling the Helix order if it does everything else you need and sounds better that the HD just for that feature.  Just my opinion...

 

I can't justify paying a premium price for otherwise amazing products that leave out critical features, that are congruent with the company's previous product development and marketing efforts. The helix appears to invalidate a primary selling point of the DT series. I won't keep obsoleting gear when it would be otherwise unnecessary. 

 

Line 6 really needs to get their act together and let people know what's going on with things like this. 

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Welcome to the Land of Planned Obsolescence  . . . now go buy more stuff!!!  It's the Next Shiney Object fluttering across the screen.

 

Maybe P T Barnum was right all those years ago.

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there is likely a new dt amp coming but i hope they have templetes to use the existing dt amps. Like a templete to use the midi in the helix to switch the internal power amps of the dt amps..

Ya think a new DT is coming out? What makes you think that? From what's out there on the inter webs, it looks more like a discontinuation than a new release.

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just a hunch. The helix is flagship...they may trickle down the hz model engine into less expensive models ..say  hx600...and carry that into the spiderhz model amps? so do the whole pod thing over except this time use the hz engine???? i mean they have to release other gear for people who wont pay 1500.00 right? Keep that market....and once people hear the helix is NOT an hd in terms of quality and amp tones pretty steady like via vids and demos and reviews people will want the hz tone but in a less expensive less featured piece of gear  right?  maybe?

 

then again who knows..they may just keep that wide gap between $500 and $1500 open to try to sell more helix.... hence the possibility of a new dt type amp that works specifically with the helix??

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Not that hard to select topology or class using the switches.  I can't see canceling the Helix order if it does everything else you need and sounds better that the HD just for that feature.  Just my opinion...

I'd have to disagree Rad! The first time ever!!!!!

 

I don't want Amplifi. I don't want to play guitar through my stereo system, I don't want to grab tones from a cloud, I don't want bluetooth, I don't want Firehawk. I don't want an HD500X, the "X" standing for a few eXtra points of DSP and I don't want Helix with its fancy new HX modeling . As awesome as I am sure it is, Helix has nothing to do with enhancing my 2 DT amps and my 2 L-Series speakers and Variax. Right now, I am able to route acoustics over here and electrics over there, switch topologies/class and make it sound AMAZING per preset. Helix can't do that. So its a bit more than just canceling an order over a single feature. As much as I have spent acquiring all of this gear, I certainly don't want to purchase a flagship processor and then immediately get to work constructing some work-around to make it kind of work with my rig.

 

You can control your garage door opener and sprinkler system, make bank deposits and schedule a root canal through the Helix interface, but I'm supposed to walk across the stage and manually set topology and class with the switches on the face of 2 DT amps?

 

I'm out!

 

What is the Helix retail price? $1500? $1600?

 

Give me a truly upgraded and updated Pod HD1000 that does everything that the HD500(X) does plus all of the cool new stuff (large onboard screen, touch sensitive switches, more FX loops, updated FX, updated and new amps, custom IR's, yada, yada, yada!) and I'll pay $2500 for it today and will get 2 of them!

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I submitted this request here:

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/DT-amp-compatibility-for-Helix/726817-23508?submitted=1

 

Please go vote for it. Let Line 6 know how important this is.

 

Thanks!!

 

Just as a sanity check here, is there an official statement at all about this? Or are we just guessing because it doesn't happen to work now? Other reports are that using L6 Link disables the topology selection on the DT entirely, this might imply that it's a simple software feature that hasn't reached the top of the list yet. 

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Totally agree.

Gotta have the helix be able to switch topology etc on the DT25. Was 100% sold on Helix rack until I realised this wasn't a feature. Would definitely wait til this was implemented before spending.

 

Said this in another post, but yeah, there is NO reason why the integration isn't there. For that price and all the stuff the Helix does, to not allow it to do the MAIN thing that the HD500 did? Inexcusable. I'm bringing mine back. Just got it today so it shouldn't be a problem. THAT will be my vote. Maybe the idea will get relayed to Line 6 when I bring back the unit. 

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Said this in another post, but yeah, there is NO reason why the integration isn't there. For that price and all the stuff the Helix does, to not allow it to do the MAIN thing that the HD500 did? Inexcusable. I'm bringing mine back. Just got it today so it shouldn't be a problem. THAT will be my vote. Maybe the idea will get relayed to Line 6 when I bring back the unit. 

Maybe I missed something but when did switching topology become a big issue?  I actually never switch in the middle of a song or while playing.  Sure I want the right topology to load with the amp model but after that it doesn't change.  You can do everything right now automatically with one midi cable added to your L6 link.  Its so easy its ridiculous. The tone difference is huge with the Helix and DT over the 500 and DT.  I would never go back to the HD, certainly not for this minor annoyance, and that's all it really is.  I already posted a full setlist already configured for all the amps but in case you missed it here it is again.  But definitely take it back if you want, there is a long waiting list of people that will be glad to get it.

http://share.myflare.com/hB549Z

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Maybe I missed something but when did switching topology become a big issue?  I actually never switch in the middle of a song or while playing.  Sure I want the right topology to load with the amp model but after that it doesn't change.  You can do everything right now automatically with one midi cable added to your L6 link.  Its so easy its ridiculous. The tone difference is huge with the Helix and DT over the 500 and DT.  I would never go back to the HD, certainly not for this minor annoyance, and that's all it really is.  I already posted a full setlist already configured for all the amps but in case you missed it here it is again.  But definitely take it back if you want, there is a long waiting list of people that will be glad to get it.

http://share.myflare.com/hB549Z

 

Thanks for the information. OK, so let's forget that when making the Helix Line 6 totally ignored everyone with an expensive "dream rig" DT amp and didn't include the same technology as the HD series. There's a work around with a midi cable. I just add a midi cable and everything fixes itself? I choose a Fender model preamp in Helix and my DT amp will mimic the "guts" of a Fender? That easy? (You may have posted directions about this already, if so, a link to that would be great. Thanks!)

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I have the Helix & DT25. I uploaded the radatats pesets and they work great with L6 & midi cable. The power amp reconfigures (class A or AB) to match the amp model.

I guess I'm confused what the 'topology' change would do.

The DT25 has 2 channels and each channel has 4 preset positions. Isn't that what Topolgy signifies? Just the 8 positions that you can access in standalone?

Once you put Helix (or HD500) into the DT, doesn't it throw the 'Topology' need out the window?

You can configure Helix (or HD500) to change amp models and reconfigure the power section. Helix just needs an extra midi cable to disable the preamp section of the DT and communication how to configure the power section.

So it's a 3 cable method instead of 2.

Is this correct?

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I can't justify paying a premium price for otherwise amazing products that leave out critical features, that are congruent with the company's previous product development and marketing efforts. The helix appears to invalidate a primary selling point of the DT series. I won't keep obsoleting gear when it would be otherwise unnecessary. 

 

Line 6 really needs to get their act together and let people know what's going on with things like this. 

 

This is exactly how I feel. I was happy with my HD500. Still am. Didn't even want the 500X. When I saw the Helix my jaw dropped because of the sounds, but more so because of the ease of use - the editing on the fly. I'm single, have extra income so I thought yes - this is actually what I wanted when the HD500 came out. But now I'm faced with midi crap? That goes against my main reason for wanting it, and at that price, I'll stick to my HD500. 

 

I'll add a further note - Line 6 was a little devious here. The inclusion of an L6 cable, preamp only versions of amps, and endorsing the use of a DT amp in the Helix manual WITHOUT any confession that Helix will not control topography would make anyone think that Helix and DT amps work together the way HD and DT do. They certainly fooled me! I'm bringing mine back. 

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Line 6 has a loyal customer base. I'm not sure they reciprocate. I think it's a big deal to promote the concept of a dream rig, but a bigger deal to abandon it without discussion. All of the people who were saying that Support is not a big deal are in my opinion just enabling Line 6 to abandon its own marketing and many of its customers. The message they are getting is that while there are a few whiners who kick and scream, the majority of its costumers will not hold them accountable to their long term vision and will even make excuses for them. So why would they behave any differently?

 

Just know that if you buy a product from Line 6, count on less future support rather than more, especially since they're now owned by a company like Yamaha. I suppose we are lucky to even get firmware updates at all.

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Maybe I missed something but when did switching topology become a big issue?  I actually never switch in the middle of a song or while playing. 

I can definitely see where it would be switched in the middle of a song (which is why I always HATED that loud "pop" when changing topology while in the middle of a song).

 

​For instance...I'm playing the song "Picture" by Kid Rock & Sheryl Crow.  Nice clean sound using Topology I UNTIL the lead break kicks in. Now I'm moving to a high gain amp that I prefer Topology IV with. And after the lead I'm switching back to my clean sound.

 

​To be fair...the loud "pop" of the topology switching led me to only use Topology IV at live gigs and tweak my amp model settings accordingly to get the sounds I want using that topology only.

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Thanks for the information. OK, so let's forget that when making the Helix Line 6 totally ignored everyone with an expensive "dream rig" DT amp and didn't include the same technology as the HD series. There's a work around with a midi cable. I just add a midi cable and everything fixes itself? I choose a Fender model preamp in Helix and my DT amp will mimic the "guts" of a Fender? That easy? (You may have posted directions about this already, if so, a link to that would be great. Thanks!)

 

if you download my setlist I linked in my last post, each patch is setup for a specific amp model and has both a full amp and a preamp on a FS.  Choose the one you like best.  Yes, the DT will configure itself to the default setup for that amp model.  You can also turn on the default cab model with a FS if you like and you can change class, topology and pentode/triode settings too.  It works exactly like a HD500 would.  Once you have it the way you want it, change the patch to suit your needs.  Yes its that easy.

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I have the Helix & DT25. I uploaded the radatats pesets and they work great with L6 & midi cable. The power amp reconfigures (class A or AB) to match the amp model.

I guess I'm confused what the 'topology' change would do.

The DT25 has 2 channels and each channel has 4 preset positions. Isn't that what Topolgy signifies? Just the 8 positions that you can access in standalone?

Once you put Helix (or HD500) into the DT, doesn't it throw the 'Topology' need out the window?

You can configure Helix (or HD500) to change amp models and reconfigure the power section. Helix just needs an extra midi cable to disable the preamp section of the DT and communication how to configure the power section.

So it's a 3 cable method instead of 2.

Is this correct?

 

With the DT as a standalone amp, the topology switch simply togglesbetween the 4 loaded amp models for each channel.  Once you connect the HD500 or Helix with midi however, the topology switch actually changes the way the negative feedback loop in the power amp is configured.  This gives you 4 separate voicings for each amp model.  Totally different from what the standalone function does.

 

Yes its a 3 cable setup.  1 from guitar to Helix, 2 (midi and L6 link) from Helix to DT.

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I can definitely see where it would be switched in the middle of a song (which is why I always HATED that loud "pop" when changing topology while in the middle of a song).

 

​For instance...I'm playing the song "Picture" by Kid Rock & Sheryl Crow.  Nice clean sound using Topology I UNTIL the lead break kicks in. Now I'm moving to a high gain amp that I prefer Topology IV with. And after the lead I'm switching back to my clean sound.

 

​To be fair...the loud "pop" of the topology switching led me to only use Topology IV at live gigs and tweak my amp model settings accordingly to get the sounds I want using that topology only.

 

Good point on switching amp models however, you nailed the big reason why you can't really use it anyways.  Absolutyely right, set all amps within a patch to use the same topology to avoid the pop from the mechanical relays switching.  And that is easily done by midi with Helix.  The command center is the easiest midi programming tool I have used.

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This is exactly how I feel. I was happy with my HD500. Still am. Didn't even want the 500X. When I saw the Helix my jaw dropped because of the sounds, but more so because of the ease of use - the editing on the fly. I'm single, have extra income so I thought yes - this is actually what I wanted when the HD500 came out. But now I'm faced with midi crap? That goes against my main reason for wanting it, and at that price, I'll stick to my HD500. 

 

I'll add a further note - Line 6 was a little devious here. The inclusion of an L6 cable, preamp only versions of amps, and endorsing the use of a DT amp in the Helix manual WITHOUT any confession that Helix will not control topography would make anyone think that Helix and DT amps work together the way HD and DT do. They certainly fooled me! I'm bringing mine back. 

 

I agree with you whole heartedly that it should have been handled much better.  That said, the preamp models are not just for the DT, they are good for 4CM setups with other tube amps which the Helix was also designed to support.  The midi wrokaround is so simple I don't understand why they didn't include it from the beginning to save a lot of confusion and bad feelings.  If you already have a Helix, its hardly worth returning over but if you are just thinking about it definitely something to consider.

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This is exactly how I feel. I was happy with my HD500. Still am. Didn't even want the 500X. When I saw the Helix my jaw dropped because of the sounds, but more so because of the ease of use - the editing on the fly. I'm single, have extra income so I thought yes - this is actually what I wanted when the HD500 came out. But now I'm faced with midi crap? That goes against my main reason for wanting it, and at that price, I'll stick to my HD500. 

 

I'll add a further note - Line 6 was a little devious here. The inclusion of an L6 cable, preamp only versions of amps, and endorsing the use of a DT amp in the Helix manual WITHOUT any confession that Helix will not control topography would make anyone think that Helix and DT amps work together the way HD and DT do. They certainly fooled me! I'm bringing mine back. 

I'm going to chime in on this discussion, because I've been experimenting with the integration of the Helix with my DT amps in the last month, and have finally found the answer. True, it's not as easy as the HD500 Line6 link integration, but with a little bit of work, I think you'll be happy. The fact that they released Helix without a promise of full integration, doesn't mean it might not happen in the future, but I have a feeling that they're moving to the Firehawk 1500 as the Helix mate rather than the DT series.

Heres how it works:

  1. Download DT Edit from http://rome2.github.io/dtedit/, load and connect to DT with 2 midi cables with a good USB midi interface. Select Channel A under master section.
  2. On the left side of the DT Edit control panel, select "none" for Topology 1 Preamp selection (eliminating the DT preamp)
  3. On the right side of the DT Edit control panel, select Topology 1 and select the desired class and pentrode/triode configuration
  4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 for the other three topology settings. Close DT Edit.
  5. Connect 1 midi cable from Helix to DT amp midi in
  6. Create a preset with an Amp model (not Amp + Cab, or preamp)
  7. Press the menu button and select Command Center
  8. Instant 1 will default, use default midi channel "base", and select CC# 122
  9. Select the desired Value #- 0 Topology 1, 1 Topology 2, 2- Topology 3, 3- Topology 4
  10. Save the preset.
  11. Now when you select this preset, it will change the amp Topology to the desired one, with the class, and triode/pentode selections.

I find that the amp models without cabs sound the best, much better than the amp + cab or preamp models. Since the DT has it's own speaker, and the cab model in the DT has been disabled, you have a good place to start tweaking. I find I need to do just a little EQ to get the desired sound. The Helix sounds so much better than the HD, it's worth the extra work to get it integrated with the DT.  And it's still just 2 cables- the Link and midi. I hope you give it a try, and it works for you.

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I'm going to chime in on this discussion, because I've been experimenting with the integration of the Helix with my DT amps in the last month, and have finally found the answer. True, it's not as easy as the HD500 Line6 link integration, but with a little bit of work, I think you'll be happy. The fact that they released Helix without a promise of full integration, doesn't mean it might not happen in the future, but I have a feeling that they're moving to the Firehawk 1500 as the Helix mate rather than the DT series.

Heres how it works:

  1. Download DT Edit from http://rome2.github.io/dtedit/, load and connect to DT with 2 midi cables with a good USB midi interface. Select Channel A under master section.
  2. On the left side of the DT Edit control panel, select "none" for Topology 1 Preamp selection (eliminating the DT preamp)
  3. On the right side of the DT Edit control panel, select Topology 1 and select the desired class and pentrode/triode configuration
  4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 for the other three topology settings. Close DT Edit.
  5. Connect 1 midi cable from Helix to DT amp midi in
  6. Create a preset with an Amp model (not Amp + Cab, or preamp)
  7. Press the menu button and select Command Center
  8. Instant 1 will default, use default midi channel "base", and select CC# 122
  9. Select the desired Value #- 0 Topology 1, 1 Topology 2, 2- Topology 3, 3- Topology 4
  10. Save the preset.
  11. Now when you select this preset, it will change the amp Topology to the desired one, with the class, and triode/pentode selections.

I find that the amp models without cabs sound the best, much better than the amp + cab or preamp models. Since the DT has it's own speaker, and the cab model in the DT has been disabled, you have a good place to start tweaking. I find I need to do just a little EQ to get the desired sound. The Helix sounds so much better than the HD, it's worth the extra work to get it integrated with the DT.  And it's still just 2 cables- the Link and midi. I hope you give it a try, and it works for you.

Awesome! Thanx! My 2 cents?….I don't want to pay $1500 and then have to get to work making this thing work. Takes too much time away from playing guitar.

 

I will patiently wait for a new DT(H)elix-25 valve amp that is plug and play before I spend any energy entertaining the thought of Helix. (I know, forever is a long time to be patient!)

 

When and if my current rig (DT50/DT25/L2M/HD500 ) finally craps out and I am unable to get it fixed, I will have to think long and hard before I go down a new Line 6 rabbit hole. I'm just not sure that road of product development they are on is one that works for me. 

 

The original Dream Rig struck a great balance of future tech and old school. All of this Amplifi and iOS integration tone matching and studio quality live sound is just not for me! Firehawk 1500? Really? 

 

Im sure it the bees knees! Just not for me.

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When and if my current rig (DT50/DT25/L2M/HD500 ) finally craps out and I am unable to get it fixed, I will have to think long and hard before I go down a new Line 6 rabbit hole. I'm just not sure that road of product development they are on is one that works for me. 

 

The original Dream Rig struck a great balance of future tech and old school. All of this Amplifi and iOS integration tone matching and studio quality live sound is just not for me! Firehawk 1500? Really? 

 

 

Well said. I've been happy to see how preamps have evolved along with technology and happy to upgrade. But as far as a power section, I can't see how there will be innovations beyond what the DT series offer nor would I need it to with the exception of maybe stereo. I suppose Line 6 is just not seeing enough sales. I assume that tube purists are sticking with the classic brands, which let's be honest, garner more respect on stage.

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I assume that tube purists are sticking with the classic brands, which let's be honest, garner more respect on stage.What garners respect is

What garners respect is having a good tone being a good player! If you knock those two out of the park, purists will want to take a look at what you are playing. And they will be hard pressed to call your stuff cheap line 6 crap cause what they just heard is undeniable!

 

Take that to the bank!

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What garners respect is having a good tone being a good player! If you knock those two out of the park, purists will want to take a look at what you are playing. And they will be hard pressed to call your stuff cheap line 6 crap cause what they just heard is undeniable!

 

Take that to the bank!

 

Touche! But let's be honest, brand snobbery is very real, especially with vintage and classics.

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Touche! But let's be honest, brand snobbery is very real, especially with vintage and classics.

I know! Cracks me up! I Just purchased a 2015 Hyundai Genesis 5.0 Ultimate. 420hp V8. Took it over to a buddies house who just purchased an Audi S6. He paid $65k used! I paid $32K used. You could have purchased 2 of my car for his one! When he got into my ride, it was undeniable! My car is very, VERY nice! for far less $$$! My car has has more tech, and amenities than his and my warrantee is forever! He was scratching his head and his wife was cussing him out!

 

There is nothing I like more than to talk to purists in cars and guitars and listen to them tie themselves into a pretzel explaining why it is that this overpriced vintage amp or guitar is worth the amout of money they paid! And they still suck! Then I pick up my Korean made Variax and tear the house down! 

 

While they are scratching their head wondering why their $40k 1957 Stratocaster let them down, I'm loading my Chinese made amp and Korean made guitar  into my Korean made car with the pano roof and zooming home!

 

Let the snobs be snobs. Take it to the stage and then lets talk!

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What garners respect is having a good tone being a good player! If you knock those two out of the park, purists will want to take a look at what you are playing. And they will be hard pressed to call your stuff cheap line 6 crap cause what they just heard is undeniable!

 

Take that to the bank!

 

 

Touche! But let's be honest, brand snobbery is very real, especially with vintage and classics.

 

Hilarious conversation and only too true! You guys have convinced me, I am finally going to remove the "Matchless" name plate from my Crate amp  ;)

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Hey you have to brand your forearms with tattoos to show your commitment just the same!

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Hilarious conversation and only too true! You guys have convinced me, I am finally going to remove the "Matchless" name plate from my Crate amp  ;)

Let your Crate flag fly my man and let your skill do the talking!

 

Hey you have to brand your forearms with tattoos to show your commitment just the same!

lol

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