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ice9mike

Idealscale request for DT backwards compatibility. PLEASE VOTE!!

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This isn't particularly a plea for just the current DT amps...

more about the L6Link functionality that is enjoyed by those DT amps... and perhaps any future amps.

 

The DT is done. It's what, 3 years old? On to the next.

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Just adding programmable MIDI transfer option to L6 Link would go a long way. Being able to update FW wo MIDI or saving control changes made on the DT within Helix is not crucial for my needs. Voted for improvements too.

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It does beg the question, in what way will the DT receive signal from the Helix? Basically, as the connection between the HD and DT involves two-way communication, this appears to not. As in, if you adjust the master volume or a knob on the DT, will it alter any setting on the Helix? I would guess 'no'.

 

The key to using the DT with the Helix, is to separate the DT Bogner 'power amp' portion of the signal from the Line6 'HD' era amp, cab and mic modeling. 

 

Meaning, if you are L6Linking to the DT, I would guess it still works in a similar manner. By using the Link, you over-ride the preconfigured DT amp/cab settings on the DT. HOWEVER. The mic model that feeds the DT out is set onboard the DT. The mic model set on the HD500 currently does nothing to the sound of the DT XLR out.

 

I recently tested this. For example, if you set 'no amp model' on the HD500, it defaults to whatever the amp model is set on the DT. However, you can, with the MIDI editor define 'no amp model' on the DT25 onboard setting - I have it set this way for A-I and B-I, which makes the HD500 link to the DT work stellar to use JTV acoustic and reso models.

 

It also disables the mic/cab model being applied to the XLR output. What you then do with that signal, could now be a lot more interesting! I had a thought that it might be possible to send that DT 'no cab/no mic model' XLR signal back to the Helix XLR, and run it through a Helix cab/mic model. Because the default mic / cab settings on the DT are essentially now the 'old' stuff! 

 

To avoid running the brand new awesome Helix tones through the old cab, mic and amp models, it will take getting creative with how you configure the interaction between the Helix and the DT. I think it's going to be fun testing different routing ideas!!

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Done.  Love my DT25.  The price might be prohibitive at first, but the dream rig component I'm most likely to up date is my HD500.

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I'm likely going to get the Helix and if the modeling is as good as it's supposed to be, there's no reason to have my DT25. I'm going to do what Line 6 obviously wants me to do, and that's use it with an FRFR like the StageSource.

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The DT is done. It's what, 3 years old? On to the next.

The 1969 Marshall Plexi is done! It's what, 46 years old? On to the next. Oh wait...you'd like to keep that 1969 Plexi? Why? Ah, cause it's a good amp and you'd like to continue using it. That makes sense.

 

IdeaScale vote? DONE!

 

As I went to cast my thumbs up vote on IdeaScale, it became clear to me that if Helix isn't capable of running my complete dream rig, then I'm out! My rig sounds great and it only makes sense to me to add gear that enhances what my rig is currently capable of doing. It seems to me that at this point Helix, as much as I am wanting to purchase two of them, Helix falls short. Without topology switching, Helix is taking away from my rig instead of expanding it.

 

So sad

Edited by Tboneous
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It does beg the question, in what way will the DT receive signal from the Helix? Basically, as the connection between the HD and DT involves two-way communication, this appears to not. As in, if you adjust the master volume or a knob on the DT, will it alter any setting on the Helix? I would guess 'no'.

 

Obviously I don't know, not being an L6 developer or beta tester, but I am assuming that StageSource Speaker Mode is saved within a Helix Patch, and that requires communication from the L6 downstream device back up to the source device.  So I guess that Yes it is possible.

 

I could be wrong however if the Helix controls allow you to Set the StageSource mode or just assumes PA/Reference and it is up to you to disable the Speaker Block if using Electric Guitar mode.

 

None of us know anything really do we?

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I expect that I'll eventually end up FRFR or Stagesource with the Helix but I think it will also work great with the DT's using the simple work-arounds that have been suggested.

 

Actually, I've been contemplating FRFR or Stagesource as another option for my HD500X for some time now anyways.

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None of us know anything really do we?

 

"Who knows what Helix lurks in the hearts of men? The Digital Igloo knows!"

 

Lol, a play on words,  the 'Shadow Knows'... Yeah, thinking it over, I believe that you will be able to use your DT via link in a more 'output only' option, and be able to run the XLR's off the Helix to the main. That was the big drawback to linking the HD500 with the DT series, it automatically puts you into 'combo' or 'stack' poweramp mode. Which was/is fine, I just use the XLR out from the DT to the main / mixer. Now, it would seem you can output one thing to the DT without the fact that it's linked interfering with what is being sent to the XLR outs. Which is a big difference in routing options!!

 

I am still thinking it will be awesome to try and run the Helix to the DT, then take the XLR out; with 'no amp model' / 'no cabinet' / 'no mic model', back into the Helix, through a Helix cabinet+mic model, and "see what happens!".. Though, again, it's probably more sensible to just let the DT amplify whatever the Helix creates, and make the master FOH / mixer send be generated by the Helix. 

 

"Oh, the waiting, is the hardest part!"

 

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That's way to complimicated for me.  What I love about my current system is I run one cord to the amp and I'm setup and ready to rock.

 

This could be as simple as we run a Line6 and midi cord to the amp.  They create a midi editor embedded in Helix edit so we can, in a single application, edit the entire rig and save the presets.

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Let's not forget that the current L6link between the HD500 and DT amp is 2 way meaning that post amp effects truly run after the preamp. That will not be the case with Helix unless you run 4 cable method. I would have pre-ordered the Helix by now if it were not for the lack of DT amp integration like the older POD units. I will be waiting for this request to be implemented before I spend my money.

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A helix only dt firmware would be great. Perhaps hard to maintain since it would break HD and people would want it for standalone use.

Either way I'd like to think that the big brains at L6 can come up with some sort of way.

Just a direct path to the power amp and some midi to configure it. Let the helix do the heavy lifting... Seems crazy simple but good enough for most.

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This could be as simple as we run a Line6 and midi cord to the amp. They create a midi editor embedded in Helix edit so we can, in a single application, edit the entire rig and save the presets.

 

Or we build DT-specific templates with the MIDI messages already preprogrammed into the Command Center page.

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Is the problem that Line6 link can't carry enough info?  Or is the bottleneck at the amplifier?

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Let's not forget that the current L6link between the HD500 and DT amp is 2 way meaning that post amp effects truly run after the preamp. That will not be the case with Helix unless you run 4 cable method. I would have pre-ordered the Helix by now if it were not for the lack of DT amp integration like the older POD units. I will be waiting for this request to be implemented before I spend my money.

I'm pretty sure that audio is not two way with the L6Link and the HD/DT- just control. The effects you have after amp model on the HD are post the preamp modeling in the HD, but they aren't post the actual DT power section.

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I'm pretty sure that audio is not two way with the L6Link and the HD/DT- just control. The effects you have after amp model on the HD are post the preamp modeling in the HD, but they aren't post the actual DT power section.

 

You are correct. BI-directional was for data only. Which is part of the topology switching. So if we have L6link and MIDI cable from the Helix to the DT amps, what do we use in terms of functionality?

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Got my vote too.

 

Thank you for the vote. 

 

To maintain all the goodness of L6 Link, I could set the HD under the HX and never really touch it. You could program the HX to switch patches via MIDI on the HD and have L6 Link do the work to control the DT(s).

 

Ok, so after I posted this I realized I would be getting audio from the HD. Kind of a problem. I need just control data over L6 Link. Also, the L6 Link disables the front input of the DT... (but not the effects return). Hmm... This could still work. Just can't use any audio input on the HD for pure HX tone.

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Good news, with 27 votes, the request in now in process. Keep up the votes and I'm sure it will make it to in progress soon.

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That's way to complimicated for me. What I love about my current system is I run one cord to the amp and I'm setup and ready to rock.

Amen! The beauty of the Dream rig is 2 cables. A VDI and the L6 link. Please don't give up on us Dream Riggers. I got a pocket full of money ready to spend on a unit that will take my Dream Rig to the next level. Helix, as sexy as it is, ain't it.

 

It seems to me that the question is this....Does Line 6 have plans to continue supporting the Dream Rig concept? It seems that Helix was not designed with the DT amps in mind. Sure it has the L6 link and a place for a Variax, but it ignored the very thing that makes the Dt amps unique, reconfiguring the power amp section on the fly.

 

I like my set up as is. Not complaining at all. But if the Dream rig is done, if the DT amps are done and by done I mean no plans to develop products that take advantage of the DT'S/Dream Rigs unique ability to/for...

Topology switching

Class A/AB selection

Running up to 4 DT amps

Etc....etc....

 

Just tell us! That way when we are eagerly awaiting new stuff from Line 6, we Dream Riggers/ DT owners won't be so disappointed in being somewhat left out of the equation. I don't want some complicated work around. I want something that is developed and designed for my "Flagship" set up.

Edited by Tboneous

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I'm gonna have my wife make an ideascale account so she can vote this up too.  She wants ME to be happy so it makes sense.

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I'm gonna have my wife make an ideascale account so she can vote this up too.  She wants ME to be happy so it makes sense.

 

That's awesome! Sounds like you have quite a gal there. You must be making her happy for her to reciprocate in kind. It's a positive reflection of your character.

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Tried to vote, but got stopped at "your vote has not been assigned to a moderator..." Will try again in a little bit.

 

I'll just say it here. The Helix concept is appealing. We're definitely looking forward to checking it out. But one of the reasons that we put so many miles on our Line 6 rigs (we have two sets of the Dream Rig - DT25's, JTV-59 and JTV-59US, 2 HD500s) is the great flexibility we get going from venue to venue.

 

The Helix looks like a great processor, probably at the same level Fractal's gear is. But the reason we got rid of our Fractal gear and stuck with Line 6 is the way that everything works in synchronicity (from amp/guitar/floor processor). Hopefully, the folks at Line 6 will remember that having all of this work together was one of the big points that brought a lot of pro players here in the first place. We have lots of amps, but time and time again, the DT25's are what we take on the road.

 

Thanks ya'll!

GT

 

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This whole topic has me thinking more about how to utilize the analog Bogner portion of the DT25, while bypassing the 'HD' preamp, cab, and mic models. It *seems* that with some clever pre-configuring using the DTEdit MIDI editor, and using a MIDI cable with the Helix, there will be some interesting options possibly not explored previously.

 

Recently, I have started tweaking around with my DT25's in standalone mode, primarily for use with my other 'stompbox' pedalboard. I switched up the onboard amp models, turned off the extra 'boost' setting (that is 'ON' by default in MOST of the amp models)

 

I discovered that when you disable the amp model of any given channel of the 8 available (A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, B-1, B-2, B-3, B-4) you get some interesting results. The most obvious application, is for the JTV acoustic and reso models. This also works when L6Linked to an HD500 / HD500x. You just set your HD500 patch to not have any amp model, and choose the standalone channel on the DT25 with no amp model. The key here is to also set the most compatible power amp / topology mode on the DT25 in it's preconfigured standalone MIDI setup. I actually have both A-1 and B-1 set to no amp model on the DT, but with slightly different power, pentode, class settings. The tone is 1,00000000 x better than running the JTV acoustic models through ANY of the preamps. Way, way better. It's a clean tap into the analog power amp section, and it's amazing.

 

Which is a perfect segue into how to consider using Helix preamp models into the DT25.

 

Not 100% clear on what they mean when they say the DT link experience will be more similar to the L3/L3 link configuration?

 

Currently, using an HD500 linked to a DT25, the HD provides the preamp signal, and because it's linked, bypasses the DT onboard preamp signal, EXCEPT when no preamp or amp model is chosen in the HD500, then it defaults to the onboard DT25 amp model. Unless, like I have been doing, you setup the DT25 to have no amp model, then it completely skips all preamp, and just sends signal to power amp.

 

What I would hope, is that when you L6Link the Helix to the DT25/DT50 that you get at least a similar response. IE, bypasses the onboard DT preamps models, and routes the Helix signal directly to the Bogner poweramp.

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I tried to register but it keeps saying that my account has not been checked by a moderator yet.......!!

Any help????

Thanks

Phil

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Totally agree.

Gotta have the helix be able to switch topology etc on the DT25. Was 100% sold on Helix rack until I realised this wasn't a feature. Would definitely wait til this was implemented before spending.

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Helix not being full compatible with the DT line of amps may say something about the future of the DT series amp. The good folks of Line 6 are pretty smart and I can't believe that they simply over looked that their new flagship processor does not completely work with their flagship amp. THE main selling point of the DT amps was the topology switching. I've got 2 DT amps and an L2M for acoustic work. I don't know that Helix can even run all 3 let alone the topology switching on the DT's. As nice as Helix looks, as nice as it sounds, as nice, as nice, as nice as it is, it's a step backwards for DT owners.

 

Please vote for DT compatibility. And I don't mean some firmware update where I have to spend hours reflashing, uploading, recalibrating, rebooting, blah, blah, blah! My wish is for an all new addition to the Helix line. The Helix DT. Or a DT Helix amp.

 

I'm patient. I'll wait with money in hand!

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I was thinking this weekend about something we have had tons of questions about over the past few years.  Exactly how does the signal integrate between the HD500 and the DT.  There is no way the POD signal simply goes straight to the power amp like you would think.  After all, the DT reverb operates independently, the knobs control parameters on both DT and POD, selecting LVM somehow implements full amp modeling even though the POD has a preamp model selected.  All these questions have been asked over time and we have never been given any solid answers from the company.

Taking that into account could explain why there is no tight integration between the DT and the Helix.  They are both based on different modeling architecture.  They probably can't speak to each other due to the significant differences between HD modeling and HX modeling.  It certainly isn't that they simply didn't want to support that feature so it has to be something significant.

DI has already said that we can get similar functionality, ie. matching power section to the selected HX model by feeding the DT FX Return and using a mid cable.  I get the feeling that may be as good as it gets if I am right in my assumptions.  If anyone is interested in a gently used DT-25 Head, 1X12 and 2X12 cabs, PM me...

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I was thinking this weekend about something we have had tons of questions about over the past few years.  Exactly how does the signal integrate between the HD500 and the DT.  There is no way the POD signal simply goes straight to the power amp like you would think.  After all, the DT reverb operates independently, the knobs control parameters on both DT and POD, selecting LVM somehow implements full amp modeling even though the POD has a preamp model selected.  All these questions have been asked over time and we have never been given any solid answers from the company.

Taking that into account could explain why there is no tight integration between the DT and the Helix.  They are both based on different modeling architecture.  They probably can't speak to each other due to the significant differences between HD modeling and HX modeling.  It certainly isn't that they simply didn't want to support that feature so it has to be something significant.

DI has already said that we can get similar functionality, ie. matching power section to the selected HX model by feeding the DT FX Return and using a mid cable.  I get the feeling that may be as good as it gets if I am right in my assumptions.  If anyone is interested in a gently used DT-25 Head, 1X12 and 2X12 cabs, PM me...

...or they are putting the finishing touches on the brand new DT50HX! Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

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...or they are putting the finishing touches on the brand new DT50HX! Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

 

Great point!  :D

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In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuZurmlRlUM at 26:02, it is mentioned that the Line 6 Link port can be used to connect to DT amplifiers. Could any one clarifiy? It's widely known that the Helix will not natively control the topology of DT amps, but can we still use the Line 6 Link port to send audio to the amp?

​

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yes, just no helix control over topologies/models... on release....

 

 

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuZurmlRlUM at 26:02, it is mentioned that the Line 6 Link port can be used to connect to DT amplifiers. Could any one clarifiy? It's widely known that the Helix will not natively control the topology of DT amps, but can we still use the Line 6 Link port to send audio to the amp?

​

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there is likely a new dt amp coming but i hope they have templetes to use the existing dt amps. Like a templete to use the midi in the helix to switch the internal power amps of the dt amps..

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