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henryjurstin13

New DT25 user - trying to edit topologies

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I have the following

 

iPhone 5 (lightening) 

iPad 2 (30 pin)

MacBook (running Yosemite)

 

I have access to a PC, and that guy has a Presonus Audiobox.  

 

I want to test out all of the topologies & I'm looking for the easiest way to do that.  The TouchOSC app looks kinda tricky for a first-timer.  If the DT Edit (PC) program will work with the Presonus Audiobox, then I won't have to buy anything extra... I wish the DT Editor app was still available for iPad/iPhone... 

 

The amp has already been flashed to 2.0, because the topologies have already been customized.  But, I would like to try them all.  Please help!  THANKS!

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Thanks -- I've seen that page with editor options, but I can't seem to find a list of what midi connections definitely do & don't work... and I've seen a few posts about certain midi editors not working/being compatible.  

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Thanks -- I've seen that page with editor options, but I can't seem to find a list of what midi connections definitely do & don't work... and I've seen a few posts about certain midi editors not working/being compatible.  

 

midisport uno    . http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/uno#.VYRA5EYy06A

 

This one works great.

 

uno.jpg

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midisport uno    . http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/uno#.VYRA5EYy06A

 

This one works great.

 

Wow!  That looks pretty slick!  I'm wondering if my Tascam US-800 D/A interface, which I used to flash my DT50, could also send the MIDI commands.  I spose all you have to do is obtain one of those 3rd party apps referenced above and hook it all up and run the app.  But being that I have a POD HD500, there is no pressing need...

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But being that I have a POD HD500, there is no pressing need...

 

SoooTrue!

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But being that I have a POD HD500, there is no pressing need...

 

Sort of. I have found that when you define 'no amp' model, and as such no cab model (IE, no preamp) on the DT in standalone mode, it can be used to great benefit when L6Linking from the HD500 to the DT, ESPECIALLY if you want to use Variax acoustic and reso models.

 

Makes them sound WAYYYYYY better not going through a digital preamp. The amp gain and channel volume, and tone stacks don't work in this scenario, and you have to also set up your patch on the HD500 to not use an amp model. You also have to choose the standalone power amp configurations you want to use, but wow is it like night and day. So much better.

 

Think of it like this: when you bypass the DT and HD preamp / amp models, you have a direct tap to the Bogner, all analog tube power amp component. For the Variax, with those acoustic and reso models, this makes a big difference.

There is also another benefit to configuring your DT amp for use with an HD500. The mic model AS DEFINED in the DT25/50 is what gets applied to the DT's XLR output. Also, you can swap up the reverbs. But in particular, the mic model can make a big difference, and when L6linking from HD500 to DT, it DOES NOT USE THE MIC MODEL ON THE HD500. It uses the mic model in the DT25, as configured using that MIDI editor.

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I want to test out all of the topologies & I'm looking for the easiest way to do that.  If the DT Edit (PC) program will work with the Presonus Audiobox, then I won't have to buy anything extra. The amp has already been flashed to 2.0, because the topologies have already been customized.  But, I would like to try them all.  Please help!  THANKS!

 

Also take note of another little setting in that MIDI editor / DT standalone configuration. There is a boost setting, that while the software shows is only for DT50, actually does impact the volume / tone of the DT25 as well. Most of the amp models in their 'default' state, have that boost set to 'on'.

 

You will see those settings (one for 'A' and one for 'B') in this screenshot, they are over in those control panels on the right side, in the sections titled 'poweramp A' and 'poweramp B'. Which is slightly confusing, quite honestly, since that 'boost' in the DT50 is handled by a 12AX7 tube. It also seems to exist in the DT25, just no idea what type of circuit is creating that boost - there is no second 12AX7 in the DT25. At first I thought it was a boost tied to the preamp section, but it's clearly indicated as being in the poweramp. 

 

20150511_150739_zps2gjm8iwn.jpg

 

 

A caveat to that, it doesn't seem to function when the DT is in low volume mode, so be sure to test that in full volume mode. You may prefer to have it on; I didn't, so for the amp models that I loaded into my DT's, I switched that boost to 'off' on all of them. Loving the SLO models.

 

The topologies do make quite a difference to the sound. It's pretty dramatic. Also, for what it's worth, here are a couple other things I discovered when messing with the DTEdit MIDI editor:

 

- the mic model as defined on the DT25/50 is what will feed the XLR output; not the mic model defined in the HD500 when linked.

 

- you can set 'no amp' in the DT25/50 for standalone use, and it makes the JTV acoustic models work much better. Downside to this, is the channel gain, eq, and volume controls don't work - but the master volume does. That observation may also give you some insight into how the DT controls engage the preamp levels vs the poweramp levels.

 

- that boost on/off setting as I mentioned above

 

- you can set 8 different reverbs, one for each of A-1, A-2, B-1, B-2, etc.

 

One other thing: I got a dual latching footswitch hoping to set up two-channel amp style switching. Yes it works, but not as hoped. There is an audible / significant silent / dropout when toggling between channels A and B. I haven't rested to see if that happens always, or if it's specific to amp model or topology changes.

 

I wanted to do stuff like, set up the 'A' amps as the 'normal' channel of amp models with two channels, and set 'B' to the 'bright' channel. I also wanted to do stuff like configure B to be a lead / clean boost over what it set in A. I abandoned that idea quickly.

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 But in particular, the mic model can make a big difference, and when L6linking from HD500 to DT, it DOES NOT USE THE MIC MODEL ON THE HD500. It uses the mic model in the DT25, as configured using that MIDI editor.

 

Thanks, Colonel, for another thought-provoking post!  You always explore the nearly endless possibilities, then share.  As for mic models, are you sure?  Are you saying that, when L6 linking, what I see on my HD LCD is not what I'm getting?  Since it uses the pre-amp, cab, and stomp boxes from the HD, why would it not use that mic?  This doesn't seem to make sense.  

 

Also, are any of your multitude of DTs a DT50?  I'm wondering what it might be like to chain my DT25 and my DT50.

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Also take note of another little setting in that MIDI editor / DT standalone configuration. There is a boost setting, that while the software shows is only for DT50, actually does impact the volume / tone of the DT25 as well. Most of the amp models in their 'default' state, have that boost set to 'on'.

 

You will see those settings (one for 'A' and one for 'B') in this screenshot, they are over in those control panels on the right side, in the sections titled 'poweramp A' and 'poweramp B'. Which is slightly confusing, quite honestly, since that 'boost' in the DT50 is handled by a 12AX7 tube. It also seems to exist in the DT25, just no idea what type of circuit is creating that boost. At first I thought it was a boost tied to the preamp section, but it's clearly indicated as being in the poweramp. 

 

...

 

- the mic model defined on the DT25/50 is what feed the XLR output; not the mic model defined in the HD500 when linked.

- you can set 'no amp' in the DT25/50 for standalone use, and it makes the JTV acoustic models work much better

- that boost on/off setting as I mentioned above

- you can set 8 different reverbs, one for each of A-1, A-2, B-1, B-2, etc.

 

One other thing: I got a dual latching footswitch hoping to set up two-channel amp style switching. Yes it works, but not as hoped. There is an audible / significant silent / dropout when toggling between channels A and B. I haven't rested to see if that happens always, or if it's specific to amp model or topology changes.

 

I wanted to do stuff like, set up the 'A' amps as the 'normal' channel of amp models with two channels, and set 'B' to the 'bright' channel. I also wanted to do stuff like configure B to be a lead / clean boost over what it set in A. I abandoned that idea quickly.

 

The boost setting--that's right!  I'd been meaning to explore that, but always needed to play instead, then forgot entirely.  There's just SO many options, but thanks to you for helping give us the lowdown in advance.

 

As for the XLR out, if a person were to use that and had both POD HD and DT, do you see one as being better or easier than the other?  I imagine it differs according to preference and also whether it's for recording or a live performance with amp and PA, but I'd love to get your take on this.

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Thanks, Colonel, for another thought-provoking post!  You always explore the nearly endless possibilities, then share.  As for mic models, are you sure?  Are you saying that, when L6 linking, what I see on my HD LCD is not what I'm getting?  Since it uses the pre-amp, cab, and stomp boxes from the HD, why would it not use that mic?  This doesn't seem to make sense.  

 

Also, are any of your multitude of DTs a DT50?  I'm wondering what it might be like to chain my DT25 and my DT50.

 

Thanks! I try to, there is a lot to discover. I will triple check that and report back on that DT mic to XLR setting - I will need to do something like setup a part with the looper, then make that mic adjustment with the MIDI, while recording the XLR out from the DT.

 

No DT50 for me - I have the pair of DT25 combos, and two extension cabs, and the one DT25 head. Lately I just use the combos + cabs, and have the head as my backup.

 

As I understand it, here is the DT signal path

 

1.) standalone:

guitar -> DT preamp -> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp  -> DT speaker

[+ transformer tapped output routed to DT mic model -> DT XLR out]

 

2.) linked HD500:

guitar ->HD500 pre-amp model-fx - > HD500 preamp/amp model -> HD500 'post' amp model FX -> HD500 fx loop -> L6Link-> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp -> DT speaker

[+ transformer tapped output routed to DT mic model -> DT XLR out]

 

I base the assumption that the DT reverb occurs before the DT fx loop because of how my noise gate interacts negatively with it. Will also test that , by recording that 1/4" out, might as well!

Edited by ColonelForbin
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Thanks! I try to, there is a lot to discover. I will triple check that and report back on that DT mic to XLR setting - I will need to do something like setup a part with the looper, then make that mic adjustment with the MIDI, while recording the XLR out from the DT.

 

No DT50 for me - I have the pair of DT25 combos, and two extension cabs, and the one DT25 head. Lately I just use the combos + cabs, and have the head as my backup.

 

As I understand it, here is the DT signal path

 

1.) standalone:

guitar -> DT preamp -> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp  -> DT mic model ->DT XLR out

 

2.) linked HD500:

guitar ->HD500 preamp -> DT reverb -> DT fx loop -> DT poweramp -> DT mic model -> DT XLR out

 

I base the assumption that the DT reverb occurs before the DT fx loop because of how my noise gate interacts negatively with it. Will also test that , by recording that 1/4" out, might as well!

 

I'm not sure about this... but don't the reverbs follow the fx loops?  And I find it surprising, but logical, that the mic sims are last--does that hold true going to the speakers?  One omission under "linked" is the HD500 reverb, which can be active at the same time that the DT reverb is active.  (Also don't see the HD fx loop under "linked," but i actually feel like I'm just nit-picking by pointing that out).

 

THANKS!

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I'm not sure about this... but don't the reverbs follow the fx loops?  And I find it surprising, but logical, that the mic sims are last--does that hold true going to the speakers?  One omission under "linked" is the HD500 reverb, which can be active at the same time that the DT reverb is active.  (Also don't see the HD fx loop under "linked," but i actually feel like I'm just nit-picking by pointing that out).

 

THANKS!

 

Yes; I also assumed the DT25/50 reverb should be after the FX loop. But I was using the DT25 with my stompbox pedalboard, and I kept hearing the noise gate clipping the reverb tails. Which didn't make sense, since the noise gate was the first thing after the DT25 fx send. I didn't actually do a recording test to verify this, but it appeared that when I turned off the noise gate, the reverb tails were fine. 

 

Good point on the HD fx loop! I have no clue where that goes - I am just guessing here, but most likely the HD fx loop happens before anything gets sent to the DT. I think that's why there is the option in the link programming to send only the signal up to and including the amp model, but not the 'wet' post amp model fx.

 

As near as I can understand from my various observations, the HD packages up the entire signal chain, sans power amp modeling, and ports it over to the DT. That audio signal goes to the DT, is then sent through the DT reverb, and the DT fx loop, finally on to the Bogner power amp, along with the code to tell the Bogner which topology to change itself to, and that sound goes to the speaker. Somewhere near the end of that chain, the mic modeling is applied for just the XLR output.

 

I guess an easy way to test it, without having to do the MIDI editing on the DT, is set up the HD500 and DT, linked, and record the XLR out from the DT. In the HD, set up a 'pre' looper phrase, and then while the looper is playing into the amp model, change the mic models on the HD, and then go back and listen to the recording? 

 

If my theory is correct, there will be no change in the XLR sound as you toggle between HD mic models..

 

For what it's worth, here is the 'stompbox' pedalboard I have going, when I need some distractions from the HD500! It plays quite nice with the DT25 actually, which is what led me to doing all this MIDI tweaking in the first place.

 

 

20150609_004419_zpsfd0yotlq.jpg

 

20150610_010759_zpsy1nysu9y.jpg

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I guess an easy way to test it, without having to do the MIDI editing on the DT, is set up the HD500 and DT, linked, and record the XLR out from the DT. In the HD, set up a 'pre' looper phrase, and then while the looper is playing into the amp model, change the mic models on the HD, and then go back and listen to the recording? 

 

If my theory is correct, there will be no change in the XLR sound as you toggle between HD mic models..

 

For what it's worth, here is the 'stompbox' pedalboard I have going, when I need some distractions from the HD500! It plays quite nice with the DT25 actually, which is what led me to doing all this MIDI tweaking in the first place.

 

 

Yes, that should be a definitive test.

 

Lordy!  I get lost in the HD's footswitches, I can't Imagine all of that!  (tho I have seen larger pedalboards...)

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Yes, that should be a definitive test.

 

Lordy! I get lost in the HD's footswitches, I can't Imagine all of that! (tho I have seen larger pedalboards...)

I just recently upgraded it to the larger pedalboard size, with the power underneath, and added that Voodoo Lab px8 switcher. That thing is great! Puts all the on-off switches in the front row. It also can store three 'presets' which are just preconfigured on or off settings on each loop, it cannot alter the sequence order. It can do MIDI in and out, so it is conceivable that I could control that with HD500 or Helix

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I just recently upgraded it to the larger pedalboard size, with the power underneath, and added that Voodoo Lab px8 switcher. That thing is great! Puts all the on-off switches in the front row. It also can store three 'presets' which are just preconfigured on or off settings on each loop, it cannot alter the sequence order. It can do MIDI in and out, so it is conceivable that I could control that with HD500 or Helix

 

Nice info Colonel! Thanks for sharing all that good info. Your the Man!

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Thanks, Colonel, for another thought-provoking post!  You always explore the nearly endless possibilities, then share.  As for mic models, are you sure?  Are you saying that, when L6 linking, what I see on my HD LCD is not what I'm getting?  Since it uses the pre-amp, cab, and stomp boxes from the HD, why would it not use that mic?  This doesn't seem to make sense.  

 

Also, are any of your multitude of DTs a DT50?  I'm wondering what it might be like to chain my DT25 and my DT50.

 

I have one DT50HD and two DT25HDs. I have set them up via L6 Link with the DT50 L/R dry time based effects, one DT25 L wet and one DT25 R wet. You have to back off the vol as expected on the DT50 but you get a pretty full sound, especially when using different, complimenting amps and EQ settings. Too much to carry to a gig though. 

 

I've also set up the DT50 L/R L6 Linked with a pair of Alto 112s with the balanced outs. I just switch the output mode back to Studio/Direct after the DT finishes powering up. Sounds pretty good too.

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I have one DT50HD and two DT25HDs. I have set them up via L6 Link with the DT50 L/R dry time based effects, one DT25 L wet and one DT25 R wet. You have to back off the vol as expected on the DT50 but you get a pretty full sound, especially when using different, complimenting amps and EQ settings. Too much to carry to a gig though. 

 

I've also set up the DT50 L/R L6 Linked with a pair of Alto 112s with the balanced outs. I just switch the output mode back to Studio/Direct after the DT finishes powering up. Sounds pretty good too.

 

Nice rig, CipherHost!  Very interesting.  I'm inferring from this that DT50L:+ Dt25R doesn't work.  I've never in my life tried stereo (or played with someone who uses it), for one reason because I don't see how an audience could hear both sides properly in stereo, except maybe for those among the very few smack dab in the middle who are listening intently.  Am I wrong about that?  

 

Have you ever hooked it all together as a mono chain?  That's what I had in mind, actually.  Is that a valid scheme?

 

So with the Altos, you feed them from the POD HD and the DT50's speaker is active?

 

THANKS!

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Thanks -- I've seen that page with editor options, but I can't seem to find a list of what midi connections definitely do & don't work... and I've seen a few posts about certain midi editors not working/being compatible.  

I gotta wonder what the Original Poster is thinking at this point, now that we've taken over his thread and assimilated it into our (Borg) collective.  

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Nice rig, CipherHost!  Very interesting.  I'm inferring from this that DT50L:+ Dt25R doesn't work.  I've never in my life tried stereo (or played with someone who uses it), for one reason because I don't see how an audience could hear both sides properly in stereo, except maybe for those among the very few smack dab in the middle who are listening intently.  Am I wrong about that?  

 

Have you ever hooked it all together as a mono chain?  That's what I had in mind, actually.  Is that a valid scheme?

 

So with the Altos, you feed them from the POD HD and the DT50's speaker is active?

 

THANKS!

 

I think the DT50L + DT25R would sound great, I just have not tried it. 

 

I am not a gigging musician so my experiments are bedroom based. I have read other posts saying the same thing you asked about a live stereo rig. I would be surprised if an audience could not perceive a tremolo or ping pong delay of well placed cabs, but I will leave that for any members here who have tried that type of setup. I would guess the venue would play a large part in that as well.

 

I have L6 Linked them all together in a mono chain as well and it sounds fat. (phat?) Changes in pre amp EQ settings, modeled cabs, modeled mics, physical cab separation and/or elevation all provide interesting tonal variations. Again, in a live environment, most of these alterations are going to be dependent on the room; so its application in multiple live venues is most likely not a practical endeavor. Setting up patches can sometimes be complicated enough, right?

 

Yes, I stared out sending balanced L/R to the Altos. I was fairly disappointed at first with the volume capacity of the Altos set up this way. I just read hurghanico's post yesterday (http://line6.com/support/topic/14433-no-sound-to-speakers-from-hd500x/?p=104820) saying the balanced outs are at mic level and the unbalanced are at line level, so I will have to try the unbalanced. I can't find that info in any Line6 documentation, but I have no reason to doubt anything hurghanico posts. I have only done this via L6 Link so far using the POD's pre amps and setting the POD to Studio/Direct after the POD finishes power up. I need to try using both DT25s Direct Out as well. I just read the variations in output from the Direct Outs of the DTs in the "L6 LINK Connectivity Guide for POD HD & DT Amplifiers v2.10 - English ( Rev A )" which provide some interesting possibilities.

 

• Low Volume Mode Off, Amp in Standby = The DT amp’s Direct Out is disabled.
• Low Volume Mode On, Amp in Standby = Direct Out signal consists of the “Full†(preamp + power amp) Amp Model with no analog amp. This is a handy option for “silent recording†while still providing the tone of a cranked amp.
• Low Volume Mode Off, Amp On (not in Standby) = Direct Out signal consists of the “Preamp†Amp Model with the analog amp.
• Low Volume Mode On, Amp On (not in Standby) = Direct Out signal consists of the “Full†Amp Model and the analog amp.

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• Low Volume Mode Off, Amp in Standby = The DT amp’s Direct Out is disabled.

• Low Volume Mode On, Amp in Standby = Direct Out signal consists of the “Full†(preamp + power amp) Amp Model with no analog amp. This is a handy option for “silent recording†while still providing the tone of a cranked amp.
• Low Volume Mode Off, Amp On (not in Standby) = Direct Out signal consists of the “Preamp†Amp Model with the analog amp.
• Low Volume Mode On, Amp On (not in Standby) = Direct Out signal consists of the “Full†Amp Model and the analog amp.

 

 

I've been wondering if there's any difference between option 2 (LVM on, amp in standby) and POD HD in studio direct mode when using L6 link.  In that scenario, I myself would just use the POD and leave the DT back at home.

 

I read reviews on MF that the Altos were very loud.  With DTs it's better if the HD master is at 12:00 or less, but when using the line level outs into a FRFR amp I had much better results with the HD master maxed.  (don't know if that helps)

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I've been wondering if there's any difference between option 2 (LVM on, amp in standby) and POD HD in studio direct mode when using L6 link.  In that scenario, I myself would just use the POD and leave the DT back at home.

 

I read reviews on MF that the Altos were very loud.  With DTs it's better if the HD master is at 12:00 or less, but when using the line level outs into a FRFR amp I had much better results with the HD master maxed.  (don't know if that helps)

 

You may be right. I did try Master volume cranked with the balanced and the Altos at 3 o'clock. I will try the unbalanced outs and fiddle with the POD Master and Alto volumes this week.

 

Thanks

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I had a chance today to try the L and R unbalanced outs into each Alto TS112a. Plenty of volume this way. I tweaked the GEQ to cut highs above 9k, lows below 100hz, and played with the gain settings of the other ranges with Qs. So far I have been able to produce very nice clean tones with time based effects. I need to work on patches for classic rock crunch and distorted tones for them to sound closer to the DT25/DT50 amp tones. I guess I am really in the wrong forum now that I am talking about the HD into FRFR speakers.

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