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wildmda

QSC K10, K12 and Altos T12 connecting to HD500x

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I bought a QSC K10, K12 and Altos T12 to try connected to my HD500x.   Amazingly the Altos sounded 100x better.   This shocks be given the reputation and pricing difference.   Can someone help me understand why the QSC Ks didn't blow the Altos away?   

 

I had several ears listening and all my family agreed that it wasn't close.

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

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FWIW = These cabs are built in the same factory as the Altos , yet sound even better than the Alto TS112A

http://alesis.com/alpha112

 

doesn't look like these are made anymore... can't find them anywhere.

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I tried several different active speakers at GC; QSC, Mackie, JBL, and I kept going back to the Alto.

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Id like A/B them with Line-6 StageSource powered cabs. Can't find a dealer with Line-6 inventory

 

I bought a pair of EV ELX112P but they stay home while the Alpha 112A's I rely on for all my gigs. Great sound , go plenty loud and light. I use Alto TS112A padded covers during transport.

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I wonder what is different in the Alesis version? Cosmetically they look identical - I'm guessing bought the "rights" to the design?

 

Either way, really happy so far with the Alto - can't wait to put it through it's paces at rehearsal.

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I bought a QSC K10, K12 and Altos T12 to try connected to my HD500x.   Amazingly the Altos sounded 100x better.   This shocks be given the reputation and pricing difference.   Can someone help me understand why the QSC Ks didn't blow the Altos away?   

 

I had several ears listening and all my family agreed that it wasn't close.

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Lots of possible reasons:

 

1) The HD patch was tuned for a speaker of one sort or other and naturally sounds best on a speaker closest to that in response - use an empty patch and add a single Full Amp model that is the one you are most familiar with. Be aware that some people think the K series are a little harsh at the high end, and that having resonance DEP at the default setting may exaggerate this.

 

2) Different volumes - it is a sad fact that the human ear is fooled the majority of time into thinking the loudest is the best (as long as it isn't noticeably distorting)

 

3) Gain staging - hit the speaker with a hot signal and low speaker volume and it will sound different to a low signal and high speaker volume even though the resulting volume is the same - had this problem with my old ones - I was doing the latter and the result was rubbish at stage volume. There is hidden processing going on with these speakers that also comes into play. I suggest hitting them with as hot a signal as you can from the HD without overloading the inputs. 

 

4) Different placement - the test is only valid if each speaker is placed in exactly the same position in turn.  The speaker is not in isolation, it is in a room and therefore some parts of the sound will cancel out with reflections of walls, floor, ceiling depending on position, plus being on the floor as a monitor, on the floor standing as backline or placed on speaker stands all have an effect.  Use the biggest and deadest room you have or go outside to eliminate Room Modes that completely ruin your perception of the sound, and put them on stands if you can.

 

In the end the general aim is to have as neutral a speaker as possible so that the same HD output can go to a PA or recording set-up without needing a large amount of EQ to fix, and which is loud enough to accurately represent the models at full gig volume.  That doesn't necessarily mean the one that sounds best in your home studio because you will be really unhappy when it doesn't work elsewhere.

 

The Stagesource L2t I now have is wayyyy better than my previous 'best 10" PA Speaker in the shoot out', and is cheaper than the K series (at least in the UK) - I really recommend trying it.

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The parent company  = INMUSIC owns Alesis, Alto, Numark, Akai, M-Audio

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InMusic_Brands

 

The Alto TS112A have 800 watts ( 400 RMS) Total

 

The Alesis Alpha 112A started life as an improved version - same cab ( just different brand badge) have 1000 watts ( 500 RMS) total and a larger HF Horn 

 

more details here:

http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12481.0

 

 

 

The Stagesource L2t I now have is wayyyy better than my previous 'best 10" PA Speaker in the shoot out', and is cheaper than the K series (at least in the UK) - I really recommend trying it.

 

Agreed - but here in USA, I can buy four Alesis 112A cabs  for the price of one Stagesource L2t

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSL2T?adpos=1o2&creative=55686218521&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CLmghOCwt8YCFQMbaQods3cJSg

 

And run two for PA FOH mains and two for stage monitors  - been doing that for many gigs  -indoors. outdoors over a year and the Alesis Alpha 112A still work like new.  I use Alto TS112A padded covers during transport

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/928368-REG/alto_spkrcvr12_slip_on_padded_speaker.html

ALTOSPKRCVR12.jpg

 

 

Alesis Alpha 112A are only 31 pounds - saves my back

 

Owners Manual

http://alesis.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/25/5493293bfa0d4f599875af6eddd8ea08/file/alpha112_quickstartguide_v1.2.pdf

 

 

 

 

Hmm 1000 watts plus Alesis DSP interesting!

"What is a DSP doing in my Powered PA Cab?"

Its performing a time aligned brickwall filter for each path of the Powered Bi-Amp Speaker Cab,  and solves  the classic issue of passive crossovers of having a "frequency hole" right in the middle of your audio frequency spectrum right at the woofer / HF Tweeter crossover point  - which often is right in the middle of your Guitar Frequency spectrum 

 


See example below

Classic passive Crossover                                              DSP Active Crossover ( Firtec  = DSP)

ks-firtec-4.jpg

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Very cool. The Alto doesn't have the DSP right?

 

 

Edit: Nevermind went through those linked threads and got the info I needed. 

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Interestingly, I bought a Yamaha mixer MG06 and connected with 1/4" vs xlr.   The K12 are now sounding great.    The POD is connected to the mixer and the mixer to the K12s..   xlr out of the POD, 1/4" into the mixer.  1/4" out of the mixer and 1/4" into the K12. 

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That is a solution that I found worked quite well with my old FBT speakers - going through a really old Samson M9 mixer that I have rather than direct to the speaker changed the character of the sound for the better even when everything was "flat" - it is something worth trying especially as this will allow you to apply some EQ.

 

While better in a studio situation it was no good for my live rig as that was another power supply, set of cables another box to locate where it wouldn't get kicked etc. 

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Do you know why adding the mixer and the "1/4 cable ends make a difference like that?   vs XLR direct from POD to K12..   Just curious as to what is the difference..

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One part is that the mixer has "character" that it adds to the signal - it EQs the signal, typically with high and low cut thus effectively boosting the mids even when the EQ is apparently set flat.

 

The other aspect that I alluded to in point 3) my first post on this thread - gain staging.  The XLR output of an HD500 is quite quiet - even when the HD signal is right up at 0db (maximum possible) the output is only microphone level, but if you try to keep the signal neutral along the hd amp+effect path the signal will be around -12db to -18db. The input level on the K12 needs to be balanced with with output level of the HD, the mixer provides additional amplification so the input to the K12 is much hotter - on my old speakers I think there is some FM compensation that doesn't work properly unless the input was at the right level.

 

I have never used a K series, but using L6 Link to a Stage Source it isn't a problem because I think the full digital signal is passed along with a volume control setting that the Stage Source respects rather than the HD attenuating the signal. (the Master Volume knob on the HD controls the gain of the analogue output stage so it can't directly impact on the L6 Link).

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On my QSC K10s, going direct from my hd500x, I have to have the input option switch on "mic" instead of "line" to get enough signal for appreciable volume. Good to hear the output of the hd500x is a little low. I was thinking I may have some other gain problems.

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Id like A/B them with Line-6 StageSource powered cabs. Can't find a dealer with Line-6 inventory

 

I bought a pair of EV ELX112P but they stay home while the Alpha 112A's I rely on for all my gigs. Great sound , go plenty loud and light. I use Alto TS112A padded covers during transport.

 

 

I had the pleasure of playing through a Electro-Voice ZLX112P a few months ago that one of my band mates use and I have to say they sound great.  Actually I never heard my HD500 sound this good. I have been looking at the powered speaker arena for some time and I don't think you can get much better than the ZLX112P.  It has an EQ, DSP, Limiter. I couldn't afford a Stage Source speaker but wanted the bells and whistles it had and the EV fits that bill for 1/2 the price.

 

I think I finally have my Dream Rig without the Stage source speakers for a price you can't beat.

 

 

 

 

post-1218281-0-88882800-1436373126_thumb.jpg

post-1218281-0-76185000-1436373132_thumb.jpg

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On my QSC K10s, going direct from my hd500x, I have to have the input option switch on "mic" instead of "line" to get enough signal for appreciable volume. Good to hear the output of the hd500x is a little low. I was thinking I may have some other gain problems.

 

Depends on what outputs you are using for the POD.  The XLR outs are mic level so you would set the K10 to mic.  The 1/4 outs are line level so the K10 should be set to line.  If you set the K10 to mic with the 1/4 outs it will overdrive the speaker just as if you set the K10 to line with the XLR, it will be too quiet.

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The K10 like all other active speakers has protection against overload so you can't overload it and cause damage, so as long as the limiter light is not coming on you are ok and getting a clean signal, if it is coming on just reduce the volume of the source until it doesn't come on

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Depends on what outputs you are using for the POD.  The XLR outs are mic level so you would set the K10 to mic.  The 1/4 outs are line level so the K10 should be set to line.  If you set the K10 to mic with the 1/4 outs it will overdrive the speaker just as if you set the K10 to line with the XLR, it will be too quiet.

Oh, that makes sense. I was using the XLR out since I have 50' mic cables. Next gig I will run my K10s with the hd500x's 1/4" out, and then use the XLR out  to send to the house PA.  Thanks for the info!

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