How many HD users will actually upgrade to helix

[bartnettle1]

I love my POD HD 500

It stands to reason I'll love my Helix when I get one!

[cruisinon2]

What's baffling is how "n% improvement" could somehow be ascertained by the audio in a YouTube video.

Lmao...Amen.

[cruisinon2]

...but I'm really not sure why I keep reading this particular thread. I've already decided I won't know without trying it out.

Because it's hilarious to watch a bunch of people debate the relative merits of a device that most (if not all) have never even seen in person, let alone actually used. May as well be arguing over which version of the space shuttle was easier to pilot...(The 'Discovery' was 12% easier to land than the 'Columbia') ;)

[TheRealZap]

they were all a bit easier than the challenger.... 

 

Because it's hilarious to watch a bunch of people debate the relative merits of a device that most (if not all) have never even seen in person, let alone actually used. May as well be arguing over which version of the space shuttle was easier to pilot...(The 'Discovery' was 12% easier to land than the 'Columbia') ;)

[CipherHost]

The 'Discovery' was 12% easier to land than the 'Columbia'

 

Orbiter Space Flight Simulator. That's how I got my endorsement. 

[katiekerry]

I shake my head every time I read "n% improvement" in tone.  Where are people getting these numbers?  What could they possibly mean?

Everyone has different tastes in what the Ideal sound is or what they believe a amp sim should sound like, And if they are capable of achieving those sounds with current or future gear..  If with current gear or parameters you are not quiet capable of getting the sound you want or play ability you are after, but this next generation has a little more definition to pick attack or what ever you are after..  I am sure any intelligent person could calculate a percentage of improvement..  They do it through out society in all different immeasurable circumstances.. 

[cruisinon2]

Everyone has different tastes in what the Ideal sound is or what they believe a amp sim should sound like...

 

I am sure any intelligent person could calculate a percentage of improvement..

These two ideas are mutually exclusive. You can't assign a numerical value to something that's entirely subjective. As such, there's nothing to calculate. We're dealing with opinions and perception, not objective truth. It's as useless as arguing over what the number 7 or the color blue smells like. Just my 2 cents.

[bartnettle1]

I'll admit it!

I was the one who started all this percentage improvement idea.

 

Originally I deduced that as the hub of the Helix is a computer it stood to reason improvements were not linear but a log algorithm not to unlike the increase in amplitude needed increase spl.

 

Lets call listening to a mic'd speaker driven by an amp and monitored in a control room of a studio with decent monitors as the real deal recording wise and arbitrarily as close to 100% there as you can get. 

 

It may not be the best mic'd example of that type of amp ever but mic placement being adequate and captured some excited air molecules. Lets call this 99.9% there in sound quality.

 

Lets add some pedal FX prior the amp and now with some added noise in the mix lets arbitrarily call it 98% sound quality.

 

Lets just stick to Amp models for now.

 

Consensus has the KPA and some of the better profiles getting 95% there. Almost indistinguishable from the real thing.

Lets put in the POD HD 500X which I believe gets about 90% of the way there compared to the real thing

 

Where do you put the Helix?

Expecting it to be 40-50% better than the HD500X  is not possible.

 

That is why I claimed a 5% improvement over the POD HD modeling which would put the Helix up there.

 

Now this is in a control room over monitors not in room with power amp and cab.

 

It is a guesstimate and I never claimed it as it is but what it could be

[katiekerry]

These two ideas are mutually exclusive. You can't assign a numerical value to something that's entirely subjective. As such, there's nothing to calculate. We're dealing with opinions and perception, not objective truth. It's as useless as arguing over what the number 7 or the color blue smells like. Just my 2 cents.

I am not sure where you get that from People all the time calculate their opinions.  And isn't that what the primary purpose of chat rooms are (peoples opinions) If not we might as well just read the Faq page..

[katiekerry]

I'll admit it!

I was the one who started all this percentage improvement idea.

 

Originally I deduced that as the hub of the Helix is a computer it stood to reason improvements were not linear but a log algorithm not to unlike the increase in amplitude needed increase spl.

 

Lets call listening to a mic'd speaker driven by an amp and monitored in a control room of a studio with decent monitors as the real deal recording wise and arbitrarily as close to 100% there as you can get. 

 

It may not be the best mic'd example of that type of amp ever but mic placement being adequate and captured some excited air molecules. Lets call this 99.9% there in sound quality.

 

Lets add some pedal FX prior the amp and now with some added noise in the mix lets arbitrarily call it 98% sound quality.

 

Lets just stick to Amp models for now.

 

Consensus has the KPA and some of the better profiles getting 95% there. Almost indistinguishable from the real thing.

Lets put in the POD HD 500X which I believe gets about 90% of the way there compared to the real thing

 

Where do you put the Helix?

Expecting it to be 40-50% better than the HD500X  is not possible.

 

That is why I claimed a 5% improvement over the POD HD modeling which would put the Helix up there.

 

Now this is in a control room over monitors not in room with power amp and cab.

 

It is a guesstimate and I never claimed it as it is but what it could be

I don't think it matters to some people how you came up with a percentage, It just bothers them.  Especially if they don't understand it.  People tend to Hate, dislike or fear what they don't understand.  And besides no need to take a bullet for me I am the one who started this discussion ( of peoples opinions I would like to add)..

[bartnettle1]

Good point and fair enough. Getting opinions is ur post title!

[cruisinon2]

I don't think it matters to some people how you came up with a percentage, It just bothers them. Especially if they don't understand it. People tend to Hate, dislike or fear what they don't understand. And besides no need to take a bullet for me I am the one who started this discussion ( of peoples opinions I would like to add)..

Ahh...so those who disagree, only do so because of a profound misunderstanding of your intelect. I see. Well at least that's settled. Forge ahead then, assigning random numbers to personal judgements, opinions, and perceptions which cannot be quantified.

[katiekerry]

Ahh...so those who disagree, only do so because of a profound misunderstanding of your intelect. I see. Well at least that's settled. Forge ahead then, assigning random numbers to personal judgements, opinions, and perceptions which cannot be quantified.

Thank you for the example, of what I was explaining... 

[phil_m]

This thread is 50% more annoying than average... :ph34r:

[katiekerry]

This thread is 50% more annoying than average... :ph34r:

Is that your opinion, or can it be quantified LOL...  Cause it only counts if it can be quantified...

[cruisinon2]

Is that your opinion, or can it be quantified LOL... Cause it only counts if it can be quantified...

No one...not myself, nor anyone else ever once suggested that an opinion "doesn't count unless it can be quantified". Rather, that attempting to put a number on an opinion, when there is no concrete and measurable standard with which to compare it, is meaningless in the end. There is no Standard Opinion Scale to consult. But all that means is that the NUMBER doesn't mean anything, not the opinion itself. We all like what we like, and nobody is "right" or "wrong".

 

You are reading things into other's comments that were never there in the first place.

[katiekerry]

No one...not myself, nor anyone else ever once suggested that an opinion "doesn't count unless it can be quantified". Rather, that attempting to put a number on an opinion, when there is no concrete and measurable standard with which to compare it, is meaningless in the end. There is no Standard Opinion Scale to consult. But all that means is that the NUMBER doesn't mean anything, not the opinion itself. We all like what we like, and nobody is "right" or "wrong".

 

You are reading things into other's comments that were never there in the first place.

then you should be more careful what you post we can't read minds..  I am 100% sure of that.. what do you know can assign numbers to a opinion...  and besides he assigned a number value to his opinion it so it is not relevant..

[Jose7822]

Helix should now include a "Better by 10%" preset, lol.

[cruisinon2]

then you should be more careful what you post we can't read minds.. I am 100% sure of that.. what do you know can assign numbers to a opinion... and besides he assigned a number value to his opinion it so it is not relevant..

I should be more careful? Who was it who called into question the intelligence of anyone who dared to disagree? No one likes to be told they're stupid.

 

But never mind, you win. The last word is all yours.

[CipherHost]

You can't assign a numerical value to something that's entirely subjective. 

 

Then why does your doctor ask you to rate your pain on a scale from 1 to 10? 

[cruisinon2]

Then why does your doctor ask you to rate your pain on a scale from 1 to 10?

Good question.

 

The following is personal opinion (completely devoid of numerical value ;) ) based upon professional experience, though I am NOT a physician, and this should NOT be considered medical advice in any way...

 

I spend all day looking at lumbar spine CTs and MRIs. I've lost count of the number of times that I've looked at two sets of images that were basically identical, yet one patient will report only minor discomfort, while the other is in agony and can barely move.

 

Pain tolerance varies widely. So as far as I'm concerned, that 1-10 pain scale is archaic, provides little to no insight as to what is going on anatomically, and is of little (if any) diagnostic value. As always, ymmv.

[katiekerry]

You know whats funny I started this thread simply because I was interested if people were planning on upgrading to the helix From the HD500.  And what their opinions were.  Didn't really care how they came about it.  Its so sad it diverted to all this crap..  Oh well I guess I can say this thread has been hijacked LOL

[ColonelForbin]

you could get as little as FOUR depending on which ones they are. SCREW THAT!  

 

 

 

Lol. Four amp models not enough DSP for ya? That's 2X the capability of the HD500x, 4x the capability of the AxeFX AX-8.

 

Upgrade, however is the wrong word. I got rid of my older, getting-slightly-glitchy HD500; my HD500x is still more new-ish, so I don't see any great reason to replace it with the Helix. I would certainly love to have the Helix; but I am way off my budget ability to actually *buy* one.

 

While the HD500x is certainly an awesome piece of gear, the Helix does take it up many, many notches. 15% better? that's Rubbish. It's a whole lot more than 1,000% better. Whether that translates to actual value - or affordability, is a different question.

 

Personally, I am really excited - but also remembering how the M20d that I paid $2000 for dropped suddenly to $1500. Or the $1500 JTV59, that I got for $1000, that I'd be lucky to sell for half that price...

 

I'd love to see some awesome sales; maybe closer to the holidays? 

 

Bottom line: If I had $1500 to spend, or even $1500 in available credit, I'd get this thing. I pre-ordered from Sweetwater, but unless the expected date gets moved back a couple months, or some financial windfall comes my way, I will probably have to cancel my pre-order. Or maybe I'll win some money on the lottery!

 

Regardless of all that, the Helix certainly stands to be a major upgrade for my home studio. Let's consider that I use my HD500x as a soundcard currently, when I use ProTools 11, for example. The Helix is likely a better soundcard, can do multi-track and can do re-amping. So that's an added bonus right there. The direct recording sound quality and routing options are clearly way more advanced than the Hd500x, so there's another bonus. The cool visual name tag strips are very, very good idea, and I think that's a huge upgrade.

 

In fact, that's cooler than ANY other floor controller. Better than Hd500x certainly. Also better than Voodoo Ground control, and pretty much any and all floor controllers for Kemper and Axe-Fx. So there's more value.

 

On a total side note, I have recently been running a Roland keyboard in to the HD500x fx loop return, and having some major fun doing keyboard looper jams. Which are mono. Helix can do stereo looper. Also fun to put cool FX on the keys, and run dual / parallel channels. Two is nice; Helix does four, which is nicer. I don't even use amp models in that case, so I am thinking with Helix, I would be able to use WAY more effects, more overall routing, and better recording ability - capture the dry, and still have the two channel thing going. So there is an example where you could use all 32 blocks or whatever, and likely never hit ANY DSP limit.

 

Anyway, I digress. Haven't been thinking of it too much, knowing I don't have the funds, and won't, anytime too soon...

[aerosol_d7]

What if it is 15% improvement of the sound and 800% more bugs due to complexity?

 

:p I'm sure it will be buggy. You guys test it and let me know.

 

Since pod hd has still some bugs after years. I'm disappointed And I don't power it on everyday!!!

[mbenigni]

This thread is 50% more annoying than average... :ph34r:

 

Time to recalibrate.  Your readings are low.  :D

[BigRalphN]

I am not a fan of our HD400. The Dr Z sounds decent with some tweaks but I just didn't find it as simple as some say. Basics were fine. Plus I was constantly accidentally turning on the looper. I know, clumsy feet. But after seeing and hearing videos for the Helix it's a no brainer switch for me.

[BigRalphN]

And as for the price, I was looking at a Kemper too. So this price is fine and it looks like it will compete well with the big boys like Kemper and Axefx

[ozbadman]

Not "Helix II", you are thinking about "HelixX"?  :D

 

Surely it would be a Double Helix, no?

[ozbadman]

Since pod hd has still some bugs after years. I'm disappointed And I don't power it on everyday!!!

 

Maybe you would be more tempted to power it on everyday if it had a switch to do so. :)

[daacrusher2001]

It will 300% more expensive than the HD500 - lol...what the hell happened to this thread.

[aerosol_d7]

Lol first strange thing when I got mine, a friend said: yeah it is like this...

 

I don't really mind actually...

 

What bothers me are here

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/13103-262-for-everyone/page-2?do=findComment&comment=111375

 

at the end of the post,

3 bugs

-Ab ing

-Percentage

-Amp param values

[mdmayfield]

It will 300% more expensive than the HD500 - lol...what the hell happened to this thread.

 

300% as expensive; 200% more expensive. :-) As for the thread, yes I plan to upgrade when the Helix comes out, but more because it looks really fun to dive into and play around with, rather than any pressing need.

 

My HD500 is perfectly adequate for what I'm doing and I'm very happy with it. I use it direct to PA and created some 20-odd patches specifically for my show, so it'll be a gradual transition while creating new patches on the Helix.

 

I've not owned a tube amp since 2004 and haven't really missed it for cover band shows. I like nailing the exact sound even if it gives up a little bit of feel, and while it was very noticeable with the XT series, the HD series feels quite good to play through. Not exactly like analog tubes, but just fine, and closer to tubes than the XT series.

 

Plus, I'm convinced that it's just insecurity that bugs people when they don't have "perfect" tone. I find it more valuable to learn to deal with it and play through it. Certainly, nobody in the audience notices. Many times I've played through a PodXT Live to a PA speaker hidden inside a fake empty stage-prop "Vox AC-30", and received numerous compliments on "authentic vintage tube tone" after shows. People hear more with their eyes and their prejudices than with their ears...

 

And whoops, I rambled off topic again.  :blink:

[aerosol_d7]

It does look nice and fun. If you can afford it, go ahead. We can imagine that soundwise would be equal or better than podhd, otherwise people will force L6 to improve it after their complaints.

 

People who like podhd would be satisfied, IMO.

But people who hates podhd and like the competition we don't know yet.

[archisc]

Its a amazing to see guitarist talking about %.

 

As a pro photographer, 1% different (RGB vaule) in color either makes it or break it when publishing. That's why I invest in $2000+ LCD screen to get high color spectrum for editing.

For Helix, even it s small % increase over HD500 (which I own), it means less tweaking, less editing, and more refinement. I like the Hd 500, but there is a different even just listening to those demo vids. Overall voicing is much better when u direct out to recording.... maybe it just me.

[daacrusher2001]

300% as expensive; 200% more expensive. :-) As for the thread, yes I plan to upgrade when the Helix comes out, but more because it looks really fun to dive into and play around with, rather than any pressing need.

 

My HD500 is perfectly adequate for what I'm doing and I'm very happy with it. I use it direct to PA and created some 20-odd patches specifically for my show, so it'll be a gradual transition while creating new patches on the Helix.

 

I've not owned a tube amp since 2004 and haven't really missed it for cover band shows. I like nailing the exact sound even if it gives up a little bit of feel, and while it was very noticeable with the XT series, the HD series feels quite good to play through. Not exactly like analog tubes, but just fine, and closer to tubes than the XT series.

Yeah...ya got me...ha ha...well, I will be trying one out when they arrive in stores. I'm in no rush.  My only modeler is the Yamaha THR10-C (if that counts)

 

I do agree that the HD500 works just fine. My biggest frustration with it was the complexity of dialing in really good tones. It sounded good tho'.

 

I recently tried the Amplifire but sent it back. It was supposed to be superior modeling and easier to use, but I didn't think it was better than the HD and the FX were way worse. As for ease of use, it was easy to set up but to get good tones you needed to load IR's...which made it more of a pain.

 

I'm rooting for Helix!

[DeanDinosaur]

Helix upgrade is not only for those who have Pods HD, it can be used in many ways which makes it a viable solution for many or all types of musicians and recording artists, Even if it didn't have amp modeling included, it's a leap forward in sound quality and intelligent design, but the sweet thing is that modeling has also improved.

 

The effects sound stellar to my ears and I have no doubt that I will be able to make the amp models sound just as stellar. The tools are there for modeling. Impulse response loading, better cabinets.  you can also add your  tube amps to the Mix; if the amp has a line out, then it goes into Helix and you can experiment using the Helix cabinet/Speaker simulations...

 

You can also wait if you don't need all of this till the scaled down Helix iteration show up. I'm certain this product will be  a huge success, so other scaled down versions will be be coming. I'm not waiting, because I know Helix will make a few things redundant in my home studio/man cave,  so I will thin my heard of equipment and Helix will seem like a bargain when all said and done.

[katiekerry]

It seems to me the driving force for people upgrading is the ease of dialing in tones.. Not so much better sound quality ( though they seem to look toward that also).. I guess for me since I already have all my presets made and its not cumbersome for me to make a new tone I don't see the value in it....   I actually see less value because I have to go through and make all new tones.. which was frustrating in previous upgrades ( been using line6 since the original POD)..  All the other features like 4 amps and 8 channels of audio I would never use, nor would I use the multi assignable effects loop... that was the point of buying the modeler so I would not need outboard effects..   I am trying to go back to what I would call modern basics, some of the greatest music was record with 2 tracks or less, with just a amp and guitar.  It relied more and ingenuity of playing vs billions of effects and routing options..  I think for me and allot of people including  me its overkill...

[duncann]

It seems to me the driving force for people upgrading is the ease of dialing in tones.. Not so much better sound quality ( though they seem to look toward that also).. I guess for me since I already have all my presets made and its not cumbersome for me to make a new tone I don't see the value in it....   I actually see less value because I have to go through and make all new tones.. which was frustrating in previous upgrades ( been using line6 since the original POD)..  All the other features like 4 amps and 8 channels of audio I would never use, nor would I use the multi assignable effects loop... that was the point of buying the modeler so I would not need outboard effects..   I am trying to go back to what I would call modern basics, some of the greatest music was record with 2 tracks or less, with just a amp and guitar.  It relied more and ingenuity of playing vs billions of effects and routing options..  I think for me and allot of people including  me its overkill...

 

I feel pretty much the same way about making the change-over. I actually don't look forward to duplicating or improving what I did on the HD, not to mention re-recording tracks that I've forgotten how to play. :o

 

Four amps does seem kind of useless, but then again, you won't know for certain until you try it. Thirty-two FX blocks seems like overkill too, but then again...

 

There are some things that would be useful. Improved tone in sound and feel is a big one. And lets face it, the tone will be improved by MY%. The MIDI over USB and the numerous USB ins/outs will be very useful in a studio setting. It's got a power swtich and no wall-wart! And it's a new toy to play with.

[katiekerry]

Oh yeah I forgot the power switch...  It may be worth the extra grand just for that I miss having a on off switch..

[Digital_Igloo]

Four amps does seem kind of useless, but then again, you won't know for certain until you try it. Thirty-two FX blocks seems like overkill too, but then again...

 

We don't expect anyone to ever need four amps or 32 effects. The point is that if you really need to, Helix can do it if you choose your blocks carefully. Actually, a lot of other products could do it too, but instead they choose to artificially limit the number of simultaneous blocks in certain categories. That's not necessarily a bad thing—limitations make things easier to grok, more predictable, and eliminates "DSP anxiety." We do it too in other products.