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4 Cable Method for the Helix into a Legacy 3 Amp


byronnemeth
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I hope it's fairly easy. We will have to see in December when they start shipping the rack units. Currently I have a Digitech GSP1101 with a Rocktron Patchmate. I use the Patchmate to switch between the preamp from a DSL 100H and a JCM 2000. The Helix Rack is supposed to have 4 different effects loops so I will be able to put each preamp in it's own seperate loop and get rid of the Patchmate as well as the GSP1101.

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Hello Line 6 Friends!

 

I got my Helix.

 

I am using the Four Cable Method for Helix connection into Legacy III.

 

In this connection I am finding that the Legacy III (and I also tested with my Marshall 2205 amp head) that the entire pre-amp section is disengaged, all of the knobs no longer work and changing channels does not matter.

 

 The Legacy III (and the Marshall 2205, separate test of course) act as massive power amp, tone is totally pure coming from the Helix for either Clean or Dirty presest and all works fine.

 

Is there no way to engage the pre-amp section so that all the tone controls and channels do work and it's not just one big power amp powering the 4x12 cab?

 

(and yes both amp [separate tests] work just fine by themselves stand alone with no effects plugged in all knobs and channels working perfect.)

 

Has anyone experienced this?

 

Is there another cabling configuration maybe?

 

Here is the routing:

 

#1: Gibson Les Paul > Helix guitar in

 

#2: Helix Send (#1) > Legacy Amp Input (front of amp)

 

#3: Helix Return (#1) > Legacy Effects SEND (back of amp)

 

#4: Helix 1/4 inch OUT (left/momo) > Legacy Effects RETURN (back of amp)

 

Everyone please chime in :-)

 

Ty!

 

Byron Nemeth

www.byronnemeth.com 
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You should be able to use the Carvin's preamp when using one of the loops in the 4CM --

 

loop on / amp model off --  in order to use the preamp from the carvin. 

I used an 11rack in this manner with the legacy with great results. 

 

This may help with wrapping your head around how that would work...  http://ipb.mediamanhost.com/docs/The%20Four%20Cable%20Method%204CM%20Explained.pdf 

 

 

I do not have my Helix yet so I cannot comment on the specifics or walk through the UI.

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Hello Line 6 Friends!
 
I got my Helix.
 
I am using the Four Cable Method for Helix connection into Legacy III.
 
In this connection I am finding that the Legacy III (and I also tested with my Marshall 2205 amp head) that the entire pre-amp section is disengaged, all of the knobs no longer work and changing channels does not matter.
 
 The Legacy III (and the Marshall 2205, separate test of course) act as massive power amp, tone is totally pure coming from the Helix for either Clean or Dirty presest and all works fine.
 
Is there no way to engage the pre-amp section so that all the tone controls and channels do work and it's not just one big power amp powering the 4x12 cab?
 
(and yes both amp [separate tests] work just fine by themselves stand alone with no effects plugged in all knobs and channels working perfect.)
 
Has anyone experienced this?
 
Is there another cabling configuration maybe?
 
Here is the routing:
 
#1: Gibson Les Paul > Helix guitar in
 
#2: Helix Send (#1) > Legacy Amp Input (front of amp)
 
#3: Helix Return (#1) > Legacy Effects SEND (back of amp)
 
#4: Helix 1/4 inch OUT (left/momo) > Legacy Effects RETURN (back of amp)
 
Everyone please chime in :-)
 
Ty!
 
Byron Nemeth
www.byronnemeth.com 

 

 

Without seeing the preset, it's hard to say for sure. Are you using the effects loop block in the Helix, or are you using separate send and return blocks?

 

You can definitely get the 4CM to work, and you should be able to use your amp's tone stack controls. I've been using it for months with my Egnater Renegade and the Helix.

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Hi Phil_M:

 

Thank for you help, how (or where in the Helix) do I go to find (and change) the effects loop block and the separate send and return blocks?

 

I'm using the stock "PV Panama" preset with no changes to the factory settings.

 

​And using the 4CM cabling I described.

 

Please comment in great detail if you could.

 

FYI - All Helix presets are causing the Legacy amp tone stack controls not to work, they do sound lovely just would like to get the Legacy tone stack controls to work too and see where it goes from there.

 

Let me know Phil, thanks again :-)

 

Byron

 

 

Without seeing the preset, it's hard to say for sure. Are you using the effects loop block in the Helix, or are you using separate send and return blocks?

 

You can definitely get the 4CM to work, and you should be able to use your amp's tone stack controls. I've been using it for months with my Egnater Renegade and the Helix.

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"If your Multi FX has amp modelling built in, you can choose to use the modelled preamp instead of the Amp’s preamp. Better still, you can switch between the modelled and amplifier preamps by switching the MultiFX FXloop off and the Amp modelling on. This can all be configured at the MultiFX and switched in/out like any other patch."

 

I would think you need to setup two stompswitches --

 

one that turns loop #1 off and engages the amp model -- This allows you to use the power amp section and bypass the preamp section on the legacy

 

one that turns loop #1 on and disables the amp model -- this would allow you to use the preamp and power amp section on the carvin.

 

Loop mix should set at 100%

 

Again this is general.. but once you visualize the signal flow in your head.. it clicks and you have the AHA moment.  Hope that helps.

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FYI Also Phil_M:

 

In the "PV Panama" preset (and also in a custom preset I was also creating) I very carefully examined the internal Input and Output settings, trying all of them.

 

None of them allowed the Legacy amp's tone stack controls to work, tried all possible combinations.

 

Please let me know and thank you.

 

Byron

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Bryon,

If I had to guess, the reason why it is not working is because you are not understanding how it is supposed to work.  The 4CM, while it is actually simple, is something that seems more complex and can take a bit to wrap the head around.  it did for me.

If you know how to assign switches then you should be able to get this working.  I would start with a new preset and simply add an amp and the appropriate loop blocks...  then visualize the flow of signal...

 

like this --  Guitar -> Helix -> any blocks before your actual amp's preamp -> send #1 -> Amp input -> Amp Preamp with all the controls -> Amp send -> Helix return #1 -> amp block and any blocks you want after your amp's preamp -> Helix main out -> Amp return -> power amp -> speakers

 

So when you disable the loop on the helix in a given patch the signal now looks like this --

 

Guitar -> Helix -> any blocks before your actual amp's preamp -> send #1 -> Amp input -> Amp Preamp with all the controls -> Amp send -> Helix return #1 -> amp block and any blocks you want after your amp's preamp -> Helix main out -> Amp return -> power amp -> speakers

 

Therefore you have only modeler with no preamp controls---

 

When you enable the loop and disable the amp model it looks like this ---

 

Guitar -> Helix -> any blocks before your actual amp's preamp -> send #1 -> Amp input -> Amp Preamp with all the controls -> Amp send -> Helix return #1 -> amp block and any blocks you want after your amp's preamp -> Helix main out -> Amp return -> power amp -> speakers

 

You now have control over your preamp AND all the effects in the blocks before the preamp and after the preamp without the amp model.

 

ok... with that flow in mind it works like this --

Patch setup like above -- button 1 = Loop #1 engaged  Amp Model off / Button 2 = Loop disabled Amp model on

 

There may be more ways to do this but the idea is constant -- I honesty hope this helps.

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FYI Also Phil_M:

 

In the "PV Panama" preset (and also in a custom preset I was also creating) I very carefully examined the internal Input and Output settings, trying all of them.

 

None of them allowed the Legacy amp's tone stack controls to work, tried all possible combinations.

 

Please let me know and thank you.

 

Byron

 

Hi, I got your PM. I'll answer here so everyone can see the answer.  Sorry for not replying sooner. The post above me here is pretty much 100% correct.

 

In order to get to make the 4CM work, you have you either have an effects loop block in your tone or separate send and return blocks. I'm not sure there's necessarily any advantage to using separate send and return blocks, though, so just use the FX loop block as a starter. You have to go to the Send/Return portion of the menu, and pick the FX Loop 1 block. The items in the preset that come before that block will be before your amp's input, and the one's after that will be in your amp's effects loop.

 

Really, most of the time you're using the 4CM, you wouldn't be using an amp model in the Helix. You'd be using it for effects only. That being said, you can make it so you could toggle between using your amp's preamp and the an amp model (or preamp model) on the Helix. If you bypass the FX loop block, everything in your chain will be fed right into your amp's effects return, so you're basically just using your amp as a power amp and cab for the Helix at that point. So a cool thing you can do is have the FX loop and the amp model (I would actually recommend that you try using a preamp model rather than full amp model first) assigned to the same footswitch, but just have it set up so that when one is on the other is off and vice versa.

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