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Helix Bug Reports

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22 minutes ago, PeterHamm said:

And, fwiw, you will, if you follow your plan, get 11 or 12 YEARS out of that Mac Pro. Try that with a Windows machine. In my experience, that ain't happening.

 

I'm not going to start a platform war here, but you can get that out of a Windows machine without any issues. And nobody's forcing obsolence on your machine, but Apple does. There's zero technical reasons my machine couldn't be supported any longer.

Apart from that, with Catalina, Apple is breaking backwards compatibility for 100s and 1000s of programs (and no, I am not talking about 32bit programs). Business as usual. A business I'm having enough of.

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19 hours ago, garycapshaw said:

Trying to update top HX Edit 2.82 on Mac with most up-to-date Catalina. I don't load the disk image. run it and get and error "“HX Edit.pkg” can’t be opened because Apple cannot check it for malicious software." If this is a known problem, I can't find it in the forum. In any case, I can't update.

 

Hi Gary,

 

I’m a little surprised that you didn’t find anything in the forum regarding this issue, as I posted a couple of times recently.

 

Anyhow, I suggest that you take a look at the post I made here, for a possible solution and it saves me typing everything again.

 

 

And also here:

 

https://line6.com/support/topic/48426-hx-edit-28-firmware-28-and-native-18-now-available-for-download-in-case-you-missed-it/?tab=comments#comment-304013

 

 

 

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Firmware: 2.82 (HX Stomp)
Global Settings: Everything as per default, except individual patch settings
Bug: Occasionally when playing (either through headphones or line out into the FX return of my amp), the signal from the Stomp will develop a 'crackle', and a small time later, the overall volume level will drop. Sometimes this comes back up again, and sometimes not. Changing through a few presets will sometimes fix it, although sometimes it needs to be changed multiple times to clear it. I've noticed the issue with multiple amp models, and I believe it happened once on the previous firmware (2.6 something) but I only played one extended session with this when I bought the unit and then upgraded to 2.82. I hadn't noticed the issue with 2.82 and so thought it was fixed, but it recurred a few times in the last week or two. I have tried to record dry in and wet out with the Stomp to capture the issue, but it always seems to fix itself by the time I get the USB in (or it could be that the USB fixes the issue somehow!).

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Hi, I updated to 2.82 and the usb connection breaks down pretty often, out of the blue.

Clicking the "reconnect" button fails, it´ll try to reconnect and show "no device", although the usb is still connected and worked 20 seconds earlier

Unplug the cord and connect it again doesn´t work, still "no device connected"

Shut down and re-start HXedit works, until the connection fails again....

 

I got the Helix rack version, updated to HXedit 2.82, firmware is 2.82

Win7

no USB-hub has been used, connected directly to the pc

Updating the unit worked fine for me, no issues and stable connection via usb

 

thx

regards

Carsten

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16 hours ago, fish95 said:

I got the Helix rack version, updated to HXedit 2.82, firmware is 2.82

Win7

no USB-hub has been used, connected directly to the pc

Updating the unit worked fine for me, no issues and stable connection via usb

 

Hi Carsten,

 

Just a thought. You mention that you are connecting directly to your Win7 PC by USB, but don't metion trying to connect to another USB port. Some users have issues communicating with the Helix if they are using the ports on the front of their computer, because those slots act as a hub.

 

If you haven't done so already, try connecting using the rear USB ports and see if that helps. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, datacommando said:

 

Hi Carsten,

 

Just a thought. You mention that you are connecting directly to your Win7 PC by USB, but don't metion trying to connect to another USB port. Some users have issues communicating with the Helix if they are using the ports on the front of their computer, because those slots act as a hub.

 

If you haven't done so already, try connecting using the rear USB ports and see if that helps. 

 

 

Hi datacommando,

yep, didn´t think of that.

Of course, I used the ones at the front (well, they were just an arm-length away...  )

I´ll give it a try.

 

Sometimes the easiest solution is the last you´ll think of :-)

 

thx

 

 

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In the patch attached (no real patch, just EQs as placeholders) it is completely impossible to select the output section of path 2 when you're somewhere in path 2 already. The only way to get to the output is to move up to the output of path 1 and then move the joystick down. That's pretty convoluted and it doesn't make any sense, either.

As interesting sidenotes:

- In HX Edit, you can select the output section using the arrow keys (which I think are the equivalent of the joystick on a computer keyboard).

- Once the output is selected, you can move to the slot left to it but not back.

- As long as there's no split path (or a split that returns somewhere else but straight after the split), things work as expected.

 

All these things considered, this is pretty much certainly a bug - and a rather annoying one for me, as I like most of my patches to be routed exactly like this.

 

output select.hlx

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On 10/28/2019 at 4:50 PM, datacommando said:

 

Hi Carsten,

 

Just a thought. You mention that you are connecting directly to your Win7 PC by USB, but don't metion trying to connect to another USB port. Some users have issues communicating with the Helix if they are using the ports on the front of their computer, because those slots act as a hub.

 

If you haven't done so already, try connecting using the rear USB ports and see if that helps. 

 

 

it´s working now, problem solved!

 

Your hint, using a different usb port, was the missing link ;-)

It´s stable now!

thx again!

 

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Pretty weird bug here (nothing mission critical, though).

Here's path 2, almost fully loaded, you can notice the greyed out entries in the block selection menu:

01_almost_loaded.jpg.d4c25603af363c07198a5d969e08bbef.jpg

 

Now let's add a volume block:

02_more_CPU_with_vol.jpg.c1ac6399e5b98425321858f85fdf7eac.jpg

 

All of a sudden, nothing's greyed out anymore.

 

And now, when I actually try to add an amp behind the volume block, there's this error message:

03_error_code.jpg.33fe586d58283a28003f654a5f2d3313.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Pretty weird bug here (nothing mission critical, though).

Here's path 2, almost fully loaded, you can notice the greyed out entries in the block selection menu:

01_almost_loaded.jpg.d4c25603af363c07198a5d969e08bbef.jpg

 

Now let's add a volume block:

02_more_CPU_with_vol.jpg.c1ac6399e5b98425321858f85fdf7eac.jpg

 

All of a sudden, nothing's greyed out anymore.

 

And now, when I actually try to add an amp behind the volume block, there's this error message:

03_error_code.jpg.33fe586d58283a28003f654a5f2d3313.jpg

 

 

Have you checked to make sure your HX Edit version matches your firmware? If they do match already I would definitely consider doing a backup, global reset, and restore. You seem to be getting some funky errors I haven't encountered yet.

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Yeah, FW and HX Edit are up to date. Did a full reset 2 days ago. I could post the patch for you folks to crosscheck.

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saving issues in HX Edit with multible devices attached:

 

last week in the rehersal i had attached my LT. as i pluged the USB cable out of the LT and into the stomp of my colleaque without closing HX Edit in between, HX Edit opened the Stomp in a new window but the user presets on the Stomp instantly where messed up. some where missing, the others in a weird order.

i hope, this description helps to recreate, trace and eliminate the problem.

 

LT and HX Edit had the latest updates. with the Stomp i am not 100% shure but the hardware was shiped just two weeks ago. so i guess its 2.8, maybe 2.7.

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ok. I got another one:

Took some time to figure out the "auto-engage" of wah-wahs, but I got it now :-)

 

Set up everything, works fine, wah engages when the pedal is moved, so far - so good.

Patch has been saved.

I select the wah-block and dial in another wah with the joystick, the "bypass assign" resets to "EXP toe switch".

I got to re-assign to EXP1 in the "menu / bypass assign screen" and save it again, before it works as set up before.

Otherwise the controller will show the movement from 0-100%, but no fx.

 

It´s quite annoying, because you have to re-assign and save the preset after every singke change to get it work properly.

Turning back to the saved wah-block (so to say, the preset as it has been saved) will let the bypass assign set to "exp toe switch",

it´ll not return to the saved setting.

 

Maybe this has been posted before?!

 

Helix rack, floor control, FW 2.82 

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On 10/19/2019 at 6:35 AM, PeterHamm said:

 

...

And, fwiw, you will, if you follow your plan, get 11 or 12 YEARS out of that Mac Pro. Try that with a Windows machine. In my experience, that ain't happening.

 

Having friends who are absolute Apple fanatics I also don't want to get in a platform war but I have to say I am running on a couple of Windows desktop boxes and even a laptop that are probably about ten years old or close to it with Windows 10 installed and they are still running just fine although I also have a couple of laptops that are more recent. Have to say Microsoft has been pretty good about their OS versions having backwards compatibility with old hardware, especially in recent years. Matter of fact I have been kind of shocked that I have not been forced to upgrade my hardware already by Moore's Law or other advances. I just have not seen the kinds of exponential leaps in speed and operation in the last few years that kept me in a constant upgrade cycle for decades. Not saying boxes haven't gotten faster but they seemed to reach a sort of baseline several years ago where unless you were doing something like advanced graphics processing any slowness in older machines was fairly tolerable. 'Course I am not much of a gamer these days and you can always get an Xbox or PS4 for that. The only reason I would upgrade would be DAW latency issues. A lot of ills can be prevented just by throwing enough RAM at your PC. Guess I'm holding off to buy my first quantum computer.

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000006105/processors.html

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Firmware: 2.7.0 through 2.8.2 (HX Stomp)

Global Settings: default all, Footswitches->stomp select->press

Bug: When Press is selected as the option for “Stomp Select” under Preferences->Global Settings->Footswitch it appears to do nothing in that touch capacitance is still active.  It can be quite frustrating to accidentally trigger the Tap Tempo feature with my hand on FS5 while manually adjusting the HX Stomp.  It would be ideal if touch capacitance could be fully disabled through this setting or a separate setting.  

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I guess its not a bug its something that worked before the 2.8.2 update I wonder if there is some way to make it do this again......Using hx edit I was able to switch between amp cab and amp with out the setting changing.It is changing now,not sure if its just me or something that happens now.Just to be clear I would change bass treble middle  settings on an amp cab model and when I would just switch to just the amp model the setting would carry over.

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6 hours ago, cgar18 said:

I guess its not a bug its something that worked before the 2.8.2 update I wonder if there is some way to make it do this again......Using hx edit I was able to switch between amp cab and amp with out the setting changing.It is changing now,not sure if its just me or something that happens now.Just to be clear I would change bass treble middle  settings on an amp cab model and when I would just switch to just the amp model the setting would carry over.

 

So you're saying the amp settings stayed intact when switiching between the two in previous FW versions? That's just nice and I almost filed a feature request already (fwiw, I bpught mine with 2.8.2). Seems as if Line 6 just had to reactivate this very useful feature. I often wish I could keep a patch intact but replace the cab with an IR. And fwiw, IMO there could as well be an IR option for the cabs in the Amp+Cab blocks.

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1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

So you're saying the amp settings stayed intact when switiching between the two in previous FW versions? That's just nice and I almost filed a feature request already (fwiw, I bpught mine with 2.8.2). Seems as if Line 6 just had to reactivate this very useful feature. I often wish I could keep a patch intact but replace the cab with an IR. And fwiw, IMO there could as well be an IR option for the cabs in the Amp+Cab blocks.

 

Maybe retaining the settings would be a nice option but I stopped using amp+Cab blocks almost immediately when I started using the Helix. Using separate amp and cab blocks provides more flexibility and makes it much easier to swap cabs for IRs or vice-versa. Makes alternate routings easier too. For example all three channels of an amp's blocks(e.g. clean, crunch, lead) loaded up  and routed through a single cab. Maybe I'm missing something but I never use the amp+cab blocks any more. I don't see any advantage to not using separate blocks. Hard to run out of available blocks on the Helix.

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44 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Maybe retaining the settings would be a nice option but I stopped using amp+Cab blocks almost immediately when I started using the Helix. Using separate amp and cab blocks provides more flexibility and makes it much easier to swap cabs for IRs or vice-versa. Makes alternate routings easier too. For example all three channels of an amp's blocks(e.g. clean, crunch, lead) loaded up  and routed through a single cab. Maybe I'm missing something but I never use the amp+cab blocks any more. I don't see any advantage to not using separate blocks. Hard to run out of available blocks on the Helix.

 

I totally agree on all points and none of the patches I'm actually using has an Amp+Cab block in them.

Yet, when quickly looking for sounds, that block is pretty handy as it provides a (more or less) matched cab instantly, whereas you'd need to look one up separately using just the amp block (you usually don't want to run a Marshall style amp through a Jazz Rivet cab, do you?). Which, btw, is also why it'd be cool if we could save the default settings ourselves (or even block presets in general, which would as well come in handy for other more complexed blocks such as the delays and reverbs).

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2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

I totally agree on all points and none of the patches I'm actually using has an Amp+Cab block in them.

Yet, when quickly looking for sounds, that block is pretty handy as it provides a (more or less) matched cab instantly, whereas you'd need to look one up separately using just the amp block (you usually don't want to run a Marshall style amp through a Jazz Rivet cab, do you?). Which, btw, is also why it'd be cool if we could save the default settings ourselves (or even block presets in general, which would as well come in handy for other more complexed blocks such as the delays and reverbs).

Fwiw, I have a "default settings" patch dedicated to my favorite effects settings.  The nice thing about the helix is that i can copy and paste a block from one patch to another with settings from the original block kept in tact.  But yes, being able to save user setting defaults would be nice.  Saving multiple user defaults would be even better.

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36 minutes ago, guitphil said:

Fwiw, I have a "default settings" patch dedicated to my favorite effects settings.  The nice thing about the helix is that i can copy and paste a block from one patch to another with settings from the original block kept in tact.  But yes, being able to save user setting defaults would be nice.  Saving multiple user defaults would be even better.

 

I'm doing it pretty much like you, in addition I'm using Helix Native for such tasks as you can open multiple instances and drag'n'drop between them. When done, the patches go to HX Edit and hence onto the hardware. All this is working miraculously well already and it's almost a godsend. Doesn't mean it couldn't be improved, though.

As just another example: I find myself using the same blocks straight after each other in many patches (such as a certain combination of drives/comps/EQs, amps and cabs). Would be quite a time saviour if this could be done with one copy/paste action.

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And it'd be even better if one could save a bunch of serial blocks as one single "multi block" preset. I know this would possibly be a tad difficult to handle from a coding aspect, due to the dynamic DSP allocation of the Helix, but there's always the good old option of "Not enough DSP power to load/paste!" or "Not enough free blocks to load/paste!" messages.

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Firmware: 2.7.0 through 2.8.2 (HX Stomp)

Global Settings: default all, Footswitches->stomp select->press

Bug: When Press is selected as the option for “Stomp Select” under Preferences->Global Settings->Footswitch it appears to do nothing in that touch capacitance is still active.  It can be quite frustrating to accidentally trigger the Tap Tempo feature with my hand on FS5 while manually adjusting the HX Stomp.  It would be ideal if touch capacitance could be fully disabled through this setting or a separate setting.  

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17 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

So you're saying the amp settings stayed intact when switiching between the two in previous FW versions? That's just nice and I almost filed a feature request already (fwiw, I bpught mine with 2.8.2). Seems as if Line 6 just had to reactivate this very useful feature. I often wish I could keep a patch intact but replace the cab with an IR. And fwiw, IMO there could as well be an IR option for the cabs in the Amp+Cab blocks.

yeah it was nice because I use my helix thru my duncan powerstage 170 going into a 212 blackstar so I would have a setting with the cabs then I would just switch to amp so I can hear how it sounds with the blackstar with out cabs.I know the blackstar is not an frfr but its ok for me I like how the cabs sound and I also like how the 212 sounds with some amp models.

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Firmware: PC+ 2.00.1, HX Edit 2.82, Helix firmware 2.82

OS: Windows 10

 

Bug:  It appears that on the Helix the Global Settings > Ins/Outs > 'Digital Out Level' does not control the level out via L6 Link to the PowerCab+. It has no effect on the PC+'s volume. Is everyone else seeing the same thing? Maybe it works with a device connected AES/EBU but not with L6 Link. At least not for me. Is this as designed or is this a bug in the Helix 2.82 firmware? 

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Firmware: HX Edit 2.81, Helix FW 2.82.0

OS: OS X High Sierra

 

Bug: Just filed a ticket for a setlist corruption issue that I've had multiple times tonight when copying patches around within a setlist. Giant chunks of the setlist will become corrupted (names scrambled or blank, and previously empty patches filled with random dsp blocks). Attempts to overwrite the corrupted patches crash the helix & require a power-on-reset. Rebuild all patches doesn't fix this, nor does restore from backup. The only solution I've found is to reset all presets/setlists & manually restore the patches, however, I had the exact same issue pop up on a different setlist while restoring my patches, so I'm not sure if it's just a game to see when it'll next strike or what.

Found one other person w/ the same issue about a week ago: https://line6.com/support/topic/52598-corrupted-presets/ which, combined with the way it moved between setlists for me tonight, tells me it's not likely a flash memory failure, but an actual bug in writing patches to flash in this latest fw version.

 

EDIT: just realized somehow I was still using HX Edit 2.81. I'll update to Edit 2.82 and verify it's still an issue.

corrupted_patches.png

Edited by shmaque
Fixing HX Edit version

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On 11/18/2019 at 5:04 PM, HonestOpinion said:

Firmware: PC+ 2.00.1, HX Edit 2.82, Helix firmware 2.82

OS: Windows 10

 

Bug:  It appears that on the Helix the Global Settings > Ins/Outs > 'Digital Out Level' does not control the level out via L6 Link to the PowerCab+. It has no effect on the PC+'s volume. Is everyone else seeing the same thing? Maybe it works with a device connected AES/EBU but not with L6 Link. At least not for me. Is this as designed or is this a bug in the Helix 2.82 firmware? 

 

After a bit more research I think this may be working as designed. That is to say the Helix's Global Settings > Ins/Outs > 'Digital Out Level' does not control the level out via L6 Link to the PowerCab+. Found the following in the Helix manual although it does not mention the PC+ which had not been released when the manual was written nor does it directly mention the 'Digital Out Level' setting but the wording implies that these settings don't affect the L6 link.:

 

From the Helix Rev.D manual pg. 22:

L6 LINK Output

Alternatively, the digital XLR connector can be used for L6 LINK output (use of a 110Ω XLR cable is recommended). L6 LINK provides easy digital audio connectivity between Helix and Line 6 StageSource speakers and/or DT-Seriesamplifiers. Two StageSource speakers or DT amps can also be connected in series via L6 LINK and your stereo Helix signalis intelligently split,with the left channel going to the firstStageSource/DT and the right channel to the second. If you have one StageSource/DT connected, the Helix output is collapsed to mono and fed to the StageSource/DT. Connecting an L6 LINK device to Helix automatically disables S/PDIF out and routes audio out the digital XLR connector - no adjustments of the Global Settings > Ins/Outs > Digital Audio or Sample Rate options are necessary.

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On 8/19/2019 at 5:59 PM, Andree88 said:

2.81 issue.

 

In my patch in stomp mode I have assign EXT amp in order to change channels of my Engl Powerball 2.

FS 1 (ring) channel 2

FS 2 (tip) channel 3

FS 3 (tip&ring) channel 4

 

If I press in order FS1 - FS2 and FS3 all was perfect in 2.80. (i.e. channel 2 - channel 3, channel 4)

 

Now in 2.81 if I press FS1 - FS2 and FS3 it goes in channel 2 - channel 4 - channel 4.

For me it's a problem, I use a lot channel 2 (crunch) then channel 3 (lead 1) in this order. To access in channel 3 I have to go directly to it by the clean channel, not using channel 2.

 

I rolled back to 2.80 but I hate the expressione pedal problem (set to exp 2 at every reboot). Opened a ticket.

 

Still same problem with 2.82. 

Line 6 said to me to use 2.80 for this problem (or rollback at 2.7x).

Wish they solve the problem, 2.82 is awesome.

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Helix Floor as an audio interface causes a negative recording offset of 90 samples at 44.1kHz on USB 1/2 or 7/8 (empty preset, but that shouldn't matter). So all recordings will be delayed by around 2ms.

Some (maybe most by now) sequencers allow for a global compensation of such offsets, in case someone cares and wants to look it up.

Should be corrected on a driver level by Line 6, though.

 

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15 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Helix Floor as an audio interface causes a negative recording offset of 90 samples at 44.1kHz on USB 1/2 or 7/8 (empty preset, but that shouldn't matter). So all recordings will be delayed by around 2ms.

Some (maybe most by now) sequencers allow for a global compensation of such offsets, in case someone cares and wants to look it up.

Should be corrected on a driver level by Line 6, though.

 

 

Bug?

I really cannot understand why you have bothered to post this supposed “around 2ms delay” as a bug?

What is going on in your head to think that is a bug? 

Not many humans could detect that time discrepancy!

Let me direct you to an article which you may wish to read regarding latency,  and direct monitoring.

 

Note well, the section “As Near Zero As Makes No Difference”.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/living-latency

 

And why you hear your input signals without having to wait for them to be buffered in and out of the computer. “still have to pass through the A-D and D-A converters, which is why this method doesn't give true zero-latency monitoring”

 

What you mention is and instance of “physics” at work - not a bug!

It is not likely to trouble many people, only maybe passing dogs or bats.

Glad you took the time out of your life to discovered this anomaly, although I question the validity of your bug statement. Why should a possible 2ms delay worry a Helix user.

 

You really do do seem determined to find faults with this box of tricks.

 

 

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2 hours ago, datacommando said:

 

Bug?

I really cannot understand why you have bothered to post this supposed “around 2ms delay” as a bug?

What is going on in your head to think that is a bug? 

Not many humans could detect that time discrepancy!

Let me direct you to an article which you may wish to read regarding latency,  and direct monitoring.

 

Very sorry, but you don't seem to understand what this is about. It's a recording offset. Interfaces are supposed to record the stuff coming in and have it placed on the timeline in a sequencer just at the right position. This is all about proper communication of the driver and the recording software and it's got zero to do with latency (which I am absolutely informed about) but with a proper driver implementation. Any decent interface doesn't suffer from this problem. And while most humans won't be able to detect 2ms od delay reliably, it's good enough to cause other issues, such as phasing ones.

Anyway, this is very clearly a bug on the interface side of things. And as said, it's got nothing to do with latency. My other interfaces don't suffer from that issue, regardless of their RTL values or the buffersize settings.

As far as testing this goes: Play any audio file in a sequencer and re-record it. Then compare the two signals on your timeline. Ideally, they would align perfectly, regardless of the samplerate and buffersettings. Which they are, using other interfaces. Which they aren't, using the Helix. Hence it's a bug. One that should defenitely be adressed in case you want to call the interface part of the Helix decent.

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And fwiw, that SOS article is pretty dated and not exactly well written. The guy doesn't even mention the socalled "safety buffers" each and every interface will introduce. These exist to warrant proper functionality and they're usually not documented, plus, apart from a few rare exceptions (I know MotU offers low safety buffer options - which doesn't seem to help their interfaces, but that's another story...), you can't access their settings as a mere user, so they're baked into the interface. And quite often they're responsible for a large percentage of your overall RTL, especially on cheaper interfaces. Which is also why you will get vastly different RTL values from different interfaces, even if you're using the same samplerates and buffersizes. The SOS author is not mentioning this, which is a bit of a shame, as SOS usually is a pretty reliable source.

In case you want some extensive but interesting reading, I recommend this thread:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html

 

Anyway, it still hasn't got much (if anything) to do with the recording offset the Helix introduces. That's all about proper host-driver-communication.

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On 11/11/2019 at 12:23 PM, jdonah said:

Firmware: 2.7.0 through 2.8.2 (HX Stomp)

Global Settings: default all, Footswitches->stomp select->press

Bug: When Press is selected as the option for “Stomp Select” under Preferences->Global Settings->Footswitch it appears to do nothing in that touch capacitance is still active.  It can be quite frustrating to accidentally trigger the Tap Tempo feature with my hand on FS5 while manually adjusting the HX Stomp.  It would be ideal if touch capacitance could be fully disabled through this setting or a separate setting.  

Any way to disable full touch-capacitance yet?  Also, I am not able to reassign Tap/Tune to other switch locations successfully.  

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18 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Helix Floor as an audio interface causes a negative recording offset of 90 samples at 44.1kHz on USB 1/2 or 7/8 (empty preset, but that shouldn't matter). So all recordings will be delayed by around 2ms.

Some (maybe most by now) sequencers allow for a global compensation of such offsets, in case someone cares and wants to look it up.

Should be corrected on a driver level by Line 6, though.

 

 

Are you saying the 2ms latency is compared to the real-time performance? It sounds like you're talking about the latency introduced by the converters themselves. I'm not sure I agree that most interface drivers will automatically compensate for this.

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6 minutes ago, jdonah said:

I'm a bit surprised that this issue isn't taken more seriously considering the commercial success Line 6 has with its products in general.  I suppose we aren't talking professional grade level equipment here or even prosumer, but in the recording world 2ms down the line upon layers of processing and other time dependent events can be amplified quite literally and figuratively exponentially to have very real-world noticeable effects.  

 

Well, as the lack of proper driver communication is known by most host makers these days, quite some of them are offering a global record offset compensation. Once that is done, you're all fine. I'm using Logic and after measuring the Helix offset, I just set the global compensation to -90 samples and that was it. It's just that I have to remember it whenever I switch to another interface not suffering from recording offsets (would be great if the host would remember the settings per interface).

 

In general, it's quite astounding, though, because even some dedicated interfaces are still suffering from that issue - let alone those slapped in as a sort of afterthought. The one in my Zoom G3 comes with a recording offset of a whooping 475 samples.

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21 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

Are you saying the 2ms latency is compared to the real-time performance? It sounds like you're talking about the latency introduced by the converters themselves. I'm not sure I agree that most interface drivers will automatically compensate for this.

 

As said, this has *zero* to do with device latency, be it from converters, internal processing or whatever. It's about a recording offset - which is an entirely different thing.

One of the most crucial features of an audio interface is to record things in time. For this to work, the driver needs to communicate with the host. And in case, say, the input converter is adding 2ms of latency (arbitrary number, I know it's less on the Helix), the driver needs to tell the host "Hey, please take that into account when placing the file on the timeline". Same goes for any internal processing the Helix is doing before the signal hits the sequencer.

This is what each and every even remotely professional (or semi-professional) interface will do. If you have access to one of these, you can check for yourself by perfoming the dead simple loopback test described above. They're "suffering" from the very same converter and processing latency as the Helix (sure, the exact numbers will vary as they're all designed slightly different) - and yet, recordings will be placed accurately on the timeline. The reason being that the driver is properly communicating with the host (well, on most interfaces at least). It's pretty much exactly the same what I'm now doing with Logics global recording offset compensation, just that it's happening on a driver level, which a) is likely more efficient, b) takes the burden off the user and c) doesn't need re-adjustments when changing samplerates (which is often required with interfaces suffering from that very issue).
 

Fwiw, these very issues are something often ignored in all sorts interface reviews. You may find resumes about how great an interface performs at low latencies, how great it sounds and what not - only to find out it comes with a massive recording offset once its in your hands. Which, btw, isn't necessarily a dealbreaker, as long as the offset isn't varying (something happening as well on rather shoddy interfaces), but it's still something that shouldn't happen. It's a matter of proper QA in the driver development department and should be adressed.

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9 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

It's about a recording offset - which is an entirely different thing.

 

This wouldn't be a driver issue, though... This would be DAW specific.

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And fwiw: The global recording offset compensation of some (these days most) sequencers hasn't exactly been added to compensate for offsets introduced by less than shiny interface drivers but because you might be dealing with things the driver of whatever interface can't adress, such as using an external AD converter. The latency introduced by such an external converter is something unknown to the interface, so the only way to find out about it (apart from things being documented by the converter makers) and cure it, is performing a loopback test and adjusting your global offset compensation.

In case of an interface coming with a fixed set of converters, that shouldn't be required.

 

Anyway, I didn't even mean to start a discussion about all this. Just wanted to report this driver bug.

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7 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

This wouldn't be a driver issue, though... This would be DAW specific.

 

No.

Sorry, I don't want to be a smart a** or anything, but please do yourself a favour and look it up. It's not DAW specific.

It sometimes *is* platform specific (as there's different drivers for different platforms), but it's never DAW specific.

 

Edit: And fwiw, yes, I have done cross-DAW-tests regarding that very issue in the past. Recording offsets are the same throughout.

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18 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

No.

Sorry, I don't want to be a smart a** or anything, but please do yourself a favour and look it up. It's not DAW specific.

It sometimes *is* platform specific (as there's different drivers for different platforms), but it's never DAW specific.

 

I think I'm getting what you're saying now, and I just tried a quick test in Reaper in my WIndows 10 machine. It looks like the latency is being reported properly in the ASIO driver. I just created a hardware Send in Reaper from one of the USB outs, and the re-recorded track is actually ahead of the original track by about 90 samples. So in this case Reaper is compensating for a conversion that's not actually happening.

 

 

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