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HonestOpinion

Why is the Chorus and Phaser effect strongest at 50% mix level?

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I have noticed that the effect sound for the 70's Chorus and ScriptModPhase are strongest at the 50% "Mix" parameter level. This does not make any sense to me.  On most non-Helix effects when you turn up the mix level, you get less direct guitar and more affected signal. At 100% you get the most effect available in the output.  On the Helix, turning up the "Mix" to 100% decreases the effect signal to almost zero, such that the chorus or phaser sound pretty much disappear. Turning the "Mix" to 0% also results in almost zero (which is what I would expect). I am using the XLR (left) mono ouput direct to my mixing board. 

 

I brought this issue up in the Bugs topic and got a couple of good speculations as to why the "Mix" parameter is operating this way but I am still unsure as to whether this is a bug or not.  This does not seem to be normal behavior. Can Line6 please weigh in on why the chorus, phaser, and I presume several other (all?) effects are showing this behavior.  If it is intentional, what is the difference between running the "Mix" parameter at for instance 25% versus 75%? How is the "Mix" parameter implemented on the Helix?

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The mix knob is blending the dry and wet signals. At 50%, both the dry and wet are 100%. If you turn the knob to 100, you'll have no dry and all wet.

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The mix knob is blending the dry and wet signals. At 50%, both the dry and wet are 100%. If you turn the knob to 100, you'll have no dry and all wet.

 

Thanks for the response phil_m.  You may well be right but this does not seem like either an intuitive or conventional implementation of a "Mix" parameter. When I turn the "Mix" parameter to 100% it sounds like it is still wet but less wet than the 50% setting. Is there no difference then between setting the "Mix" to 25% or 75%? Are 0-50% and 50-100% just redundant settings? Wouldn't this approach reduce the available granularity and turning radius of the "Mix" control? Is there an advantage to having 50% be the max setting?  Why was the "Mix" implemented this way? This is different from every other rack and pedal effect I have used. Lots of questions, sorry, just trying to get my head wrapped around why the "Mix" control operates this way.

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That doesn't seem right.  That, or they need to update the interface for the 70's chorus.  The original CE1 had four parameter dials (Level, Chorus Intensity, Vibrato depth, and Vibrato rate).  It was also a two-channel system.  I haven't seen the Heli>< version, but my understanding, and the reason I've been trying to find links to the original products, is that the interface is supposed to mirror the original units'.

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At its most basic, Chorus is created when you shift the pitch and time of the signal slightly and mix with the dry signal so that the two are slightly out of time and off pitch with each other thus causing a chorussing effect to the ear. If you listen to only the shifted signal (100% wet) with no dry signal then you won't get a chorus, but instead a slightly delayed and out of tune single signal. I wonder if this is why 100% wet sounds wrong to op? Phase is mixed in a similar way I believe, you need to hear both the original signal and the wet signal together so somewhere between 1% and 99% to taste but with the most variation between the two signals will be heard when both at an equal mix, I.e. 50%. Makes perfect sense if you are aware what the effect is doing.

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At its most basic, Chorus is created when you shift the pitch and time of the signal slightly and mix with the dry signal so that the two are slightly out of time and off pitch with each other thus causing a chorussing effect to the ear. If you listen to only the shifted signal (100% wet) with no dry signal then you won't get a chorus, but instead a slightly delayed and out of tune single signal. I wonder if this is why 100% wet sounds wrong to op? Phase is mixed in a similar way I believe, you need to hear both the original signal and the wet signal together so somewhere between 1% and 99% to taste but with the most variation between the two signals will be heard when both at an equal mix, I.e. 50%. Makes perfect sense if you are aware what the effect is doing.

 

This is a good hypothesis and was what I initially assumed the problem was. I think there is more to it than that though. Even if this were the case this would be a very unconventional and non-standard way to implement the mix control.  Most mix controls on foot pedal effects do not operate this way.  Most mix controls appear to be their "wettest" with the most perceived level of the effect at 100% (even if under the covers this is the result of mixing the dry and affected signals such that the listeners perception is that they have the max effect sound). On many rackmount units I believe the wet(100%) sound is just the max affected sound with no direct signal mixed in which would tend to support your hypothesis. Just not sure how much sense this makes for users accustomed to standard foot pedal operation, and after all, these are foot pedal emulations.

 

I mistakenly started this topic when another similar one already existed. Please see Duncann's topic below.

 

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The mix knob is blending the dry and wet signals. At 50%, both the dry and wet are 100%. If you turn the knob to 100, you'll have no dry and all wet.

 

 

 

At its most basic, Chorus is created when you shift the pitch and time of the signal slightly and mix with the dry signal so that the two are slightly out of time and off pitch with each other thus causing a chorussing effect to the ear. If you listen to only the shifted signal (100% wet) with no dry signal then you won't get a chorus, but instead a slightly delayed and out of tune single signal. I wonder if this is why 100% wet sounds wrong to op? Phase is mixed in a similar way I believe, you need to hear both the original signal and the wet signal together so somewhere between 1% and 99% to taste but with the most variation between the two signals will be heard when both at an equal mix, I.e. 50%. Makes perfect sense if you are aware what the effect is doing.

 

Thanks again for your answer phil_m, it took a while for all of the implications of your post to sink in. So, at 25% I should have a mix with more direct/less effect, at 75% I should have more effect/less direct. When you factor in the point twpmeister is making about how a chorus and many other mod effects work, the perception of max effect at somewhere around 50% makes perfect sense. It also took me a while to wrap my head around the fact that the "Mix" control on foot pedal emulations is essentially implemented the way it would work on many rackmounts.  If at "Mix"=100% I am only hearing the slightly detuned and delayed signal with absolutely no direct signal it most likely would be perceived as having little to no chorus sound.

 

I am just not sure why Line6 chose this implementation for footpedal emulations. On footpedals the "Mix" control usually results in the most perceived level of effect at 100%. The operation of the "Mix" control on the Helix footpedal emulations is more like you would see on a rackmount effect where 100% is usually only affected signal such that the effect can be used inline or sidechained. In the case of an effect like a Chorus this results in 100% sounding relatively unaffected depending on the severity of the Chorus settings such as rate or depth of vibrato.

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I wasn't entirely clear in my first post in this thread, but what I'm nearly certain is happening is that with the mix at 50, the wet and dry are equal - they are both at 100%. If you go past 50, the wet stays at 100%, and the dry is gradually decreased until you reach 100. Then you're at 100% wet, 0% dry. Conversely, at mix settings less than 50, the dry is at 100%, and the wet is gradually increasing as you move up.With the mix at 0, you'd have 0% wet and 100% dry.

 

I imagine it as if I had two faders - one wet and one dry. Starting out, I have the dry fader set to 100%, and I gradually increase the wet until it's at 100%. I then start gradually decreasing the dry fader until it's down all the way, and all I'm left with is wet.

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I wasn't entirely clear in my first post in this thread, but what I'm nearly certain is happening is that with the mix at 50, the wet and dry are equal - they are both at 100%. If you go past 50, the wet stays at 100%, and the dry is gradually decreased until you reach 100. Then you're at 100% wet, 0% dry. Conversely, at mix settings less than 50, the dry is at 100%, and the wet is gradually increasing as you move up.With the mix at 0, you'd have 0% wet and 100% dry.

 

Makes perfect sense!

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The mix knob is blending the dry and wet signals. At 50%, both the dry and wet are 100%. If you turn the knob to 100, you'll have no dry and all wet.

At its most basic, Chorus is created when you shift the pitch and time of the signal slightly and mix with the dry signal so that the two are slightly out of time and off pitch with each other thus causing a chorussing effect to the ear. If you listen to only the shifted signal (100% wet) with no dry signal then you won't get a chorus, but instead a slightly delayed and out of tune single signal. I wonder if this is why 100% wet sounds wrong to op? Phase is mixed in a similar way I believe, you need to hear both the original signal and the wet signal together so somewhere between 1% and 99% to taste but with the most variation between the two signals will be heard when both at an equal mix, I.e. 50%. Makes perfect sense if you are aware what the effect is doing.

I wasn't entirely clear in my first post in this thread, but what I'm nearly certain is happening is that with the mix at 50, the wet and dry are equal - they are both at 100%. If you go past 50, the wet stays at 100%, and the dry is gradually decreased until you reach 100. Then you're at 100% wet, 0% dry. Conversely, at mix settings less than 50, the dry is at 100%, and the wet is gradually increasing as you move up.With the mix at 0, you'd have 0% wet and 100% dry.

 

I imagine it as if I had two faders - one wet and one dry. Starting out, I have the dry fader set to 100%, and I gradually increase the wet until it's at 100%. I then start gradually decreasing the dry fader until it's down all the way, and all I'm left with is wet.

Thanks again for your answers phil_m and twpmeister, it took a while for all of the implications of your posts to sink in. So, at 25% I should have a mix with more direct/less effect, at 75% I should have more effect/less direct. When you factor in the point twpmeister (nailed it!) is making about how a chorus and many other mod effects work, the perception of max effect at somewhere around 50% makes perfect sense. It also took me a while to wrap my head around the fact that the "Mix" control on foot pedal emulations is essentially implemented the way it would work on many rackmounts. If at "Mix"=100% I am only hearing the slightly detuned and delayed signal with absolutely no direct signal it most likely would be perceived as having little to no chorus sound.

 

On footpedals the "Mix" control usually results in the most perceived level of effect at 100% (the result of mixing both the direct and affected signal). The operation of the "Mix" control on the Helix footpedal emulations is more like you would see on a rackmount effect where 100% is usually only affected signal such that the rackmount can be used inline or sidechained. In the case of an effect like a Chorus this results in 100% sounding relatively unaffected depending on the severity of the Chorus settings such as rate or depth of vibrato.  

If Line6 confirms this, I think these posts sum up how the "Mix" control works on at least some if not all of the Mod effects.

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