clay-man Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 So I've noticed something. Comparing the HD's strat to the JTV 69s' pickups, are absolutely spot on when using a 1/4 cable. Like, almost completely indistinguishable. Using the mag pickups with a VDI, they sound way brighter. Why is there no cable simulation on the mag pickups when it's through VDI? It sounds way different then when using a 1/4, honestly. If the HD is that accurate, why was it modeled with the guitar cable? Does the modeling bypass any resistance of a 1/4? How does it do that? I'm trying to compare the HD vs 1.9 and over time, I keep choosing HD more and more over 1.9, and noticing how 1.9 has characteristics that don't really exist in the guitars it models. 1.9 can make killer tones, but I don't think it's as accurate. I don't know, just some observation, what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 So I've noticed something. Comparing the HD's strat to the JTV 69s' pickups, are absolutely spot on when using a 1/4 cable. Like, almost completely indistinguishable. I wish this were the case for me...my single coils are considerably hotter than the than modeled Strat, which I find VERY anemic...doesn't matter which cable I'm using. Switching between them, the model sounds as if I'm rolling back the gain 50%. Totally useless for the tone I'm after. I abandoned the modeled Strat after 2.0 in favor of one assembled in Workbench, that someone was kind enough to post a while back. Much closer to the 1.9 version. On the plus side, I quite like the single coils, except for the noise...I use them for clean tones on a couple of dual-amp, clean/dirty patches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay-man Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 I wish this were the case for me...my single coils are considerably hotter than the than modeled Strat, which I find VERY anemic...doesn't matter which cable I'm using. Switching between them, the model sounds as if I'm rolling back the gain 50%. Totally useless for the tone I'm after. I abandoned the modeled Strat after 2.0 in favor of one assembled in Workbench, that someone was kind enough to post a while back. Much closer to the 1.9 version. On the plus side, I quite like the single coils, except for the noise...I use them for clean tones on a couple of dual-amp, clean/dirty patches. I did back the mag pickups a bit because of sustain issues, so that might be why, so mine are probably less hot sounding. I honestly can't hear a difference when running it into a clean amp setting. If I run it completely dry, the modeling does sound like it has a slight high frequency cut. Other than that, it sounds spot on to me. Even then, I feel 1.9's single coil sound sounds way more quacky than 2.0, and I don't get any real quack out of my mags on the guitar besides the obvious 2 & 4 position. The quackiness is nice for that bright tele sound, but ultimately it seems a bit over exaggerated. It could be from comparing the JTV to my 600 (which I just basically lable as the same modeling as 1.9 just in an older version guitar), but then again, the hardware could make a difference. I also noticed that the rickenbacker is less exaggerated in the thinness of the tone though it still sounds nasally like a rickenbacker should. The only thing I can really think of that they skipped is all that "simulation" of hardware noise, like the bigsby ring, and spings ringing, but in all honestly, who wants those noises in their guitar playing? Pretty much everyone mutes their trem springs as much as they can. Personally, I just really grew on the HD modeling, I don't know. I don't get why they don't simulate cable resistance on the mags through VDI though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEXdude1 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Is it possible that the 1/4" cord you use has so much capacitance, it rolls off too many high frequencies so as to make the model and the mags appear similar? When connecting digitally, there is no such filtering so any tonal differences between mags and models get passed on, with no uniformization. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay-man Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share Posted November 15, 2015 Is it possible that the 1/4" cord you use has so much capacitance, it rolls off too many high frequencies so as to make the model and the mags appear similar? When connecting digitally, there is no such filtering so any tonal differences between mags and models get passed on, with no uniformization. Just a thought... It is, it's just, I don't get why they don't emulate cable capacitance on the VDI signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie_Watt Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 The Cable capacitance won't do much at all even using the 1/4 inch with a Variax (in modeling mode). The output impedance is low because it is amplified not passive. With passive pickups, it is the inductance and resistance of the pickups and the cable capacitance that causes the tone changes. IT is a tuned LRC circuit. Not so with active pickups or with modeling. No L and no R so the C doesn't do squat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEXdude1 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Agree on cable capacitance and low impedance circuits - but if I understand clay-man correctly, he wishes that the Mags had the same "cable-tone" on the VDI connection he experiences on the 1/4" output. I'd argue it's not a bad idea but it wouldn't be a one-size-fits-all solution (unless you could somehow adjust/defeat it, like on the Relay wireless). How much roll-off is ideal? The flip side to that is, a user that typically plays wirelessly will find the Mags thru a VDI (with roll-off) connection too dark compared to what he's used to. If DSP resources allow it, maybe this could be an added global parameter in Workbench - Ideascale time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay-man Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 Agree on cable capacitance and low impedance circuits - but if I understand clay-man correctly, he wishes that the Mags had the same "cable-tone" on the VDI connection he experiences on the 1/4" output. I'd argue it's not a bad idea but it wouldn't be a one-size-fits-all solution (unless you could somehow adjust/defeat it, like on the Relay wireless). How much roll-off is ideal? The flip side to that is, a user that typically plays wirelessly will find the Mags thru a VDI (with roll-off) connection too dark compared to what he's used to. If DSP resources allow it, maybe this could be an added global parameter in Workbench - Ideascale time? It's not the Variax that needs to handle processing to simulate a guitar cable resistance, but the POD or Helix. If you're using a VDI, it's going into one of those products. I guess we could use a high cut filter, but you'd need to turn it on and off when turning modeling on and off. It's just kind of awkward switching between mags and modeling on VDI, but oh well. So if I understand correctly, since the modeling stages are active, there is no tone rolloff, but the passive magnetics are effected by the cable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie_Watt Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 The model of the guitar cable capacitance (and pickup resistance and inductance) is a resonant LRC circuit so a cut won't do it. I agree that they should model this with the VDI but I don't think they have that option. With a regular guitar, they model the input impedance which does affect the tone. I don't think it does squat with active pickups though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay-man Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 The only real gripe I'm having with HD right now is the Tele models. Are thinlines brighter than normal teles, or is it the other way around? Backing the pickups in HD workbench doesn't work as well as old workbench, as backing the pickups towards the bridge also shifts the tonal aspects as well, not just making them brighter. When that happens, it sounds nothing like a tele. I do think the HD models sound like a Tele, but just not as bright as I'd like. My real Tele seems brighter, but then again, they used really old teles and strats, when strats were apparently brighter than teles back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay-man Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 I can't find anything brighter than the tele without it not sounding like a tele, until I got to swapping the tele body with the firebird, which sounded amazing until the 6th string, which has no highs at all. It's weird how they did that. They rolled off the highs on the 6th string to balance the brightness of the mini humbuckers, I guess. I do realize that they did model a Telecaster Custom, so it's not going to be as bright as more contemporary teles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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