FOUR OUTPUTS, simultaneous amps & PA possible?

[Zaiten]

Hi,
Does anybody know if I can connect the HD500X to a PA mixer via XLR outputs while simultaneously feeding two amplifiers via 1/4 L/R jacks? The catch is this: I need the PA mixer signal with full amp/cab simulation while the lines goes unaffected (dry) into the amps. 
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Also, what's the purpose of the little switch on the front panel of the chassis (1/4" out: line/amp)?  Line6 documentation is unspecific about it; Why would they add a hardware switch to the unit (to affect the 1/4 jacks only) when there's a setup option to assign a global output mode? does the switch work as an override?

 

[pianoguyy]

4 (or more) outputs is possible. 

But if I understand what you are saying  correctly - no, it can't be done. 

 

If I am misreading what you wrote, then yes it can be done.

 

 

 

***** 

thank you for editing your post displaying more information and explaining your question better. 

 

The answer is NO, you cannot do it that way. 

But there are other ways it can be done. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by pianoguyy

[CipherHost]

But if I understand what you are saying  correctly - no, it can't be done. 

 

If I am misreading what you wrote, then yes it can be done.

 

That's funny!

[Zaiten]

the only way I know to get with the POD a processed signal on the XLR and a dry signal on the 1/4" out, is by taking advantage of the possible stereo separation, but you'll end up with the processed signal only through one XLR and the dry signal only through one 1/4" out, or viceversa...

Clever solution, it hadn't occurred to me. However, I can't use up the dual chain to split the amp simulator since stereo panning is intrinsic to my sound, I split harmonies, delays and modulations across the L/R field, can't do without that.

 

Have you fiddled with the "1/4" out" switch on the front panel? do you know if it overrides the studio/direct output option on the system preferences (which presumably affects all the pod jacks)?

[eenymason]

Clever solution, it hadn't occur to me. However, I can't use up the dual chain to split the amp simulator since stereo panning is intrinsic to my sound, I split harmonies, delays and modulations across the L/R field, can't do without that.

 

I do wonder about a little switch on the front panel of the chassis. Have you fiddled with it? Line6 documentation is unspecific and vague, I haven't been able to find any concise info about this stuff; Why would they add a hardware switch to the unit when there's a setup option to assign output mode?:

If your having stereo fx (as well as amp simulation), as part of your sound, I don't get why you wouldn't want this feature to be part of your stage sound. Why don't you make sure the amps supplied have effects loops, and just plug the Pod's 1/4" outputs to the fx return on those, so all your sounds generated by the Pod are simply going into a power amp/speaker setup? It may not be the "perfect" sound for you onstage, but I find having full modelling (including cab emulation), through a power amp/cab setup can be fine, if your "more important" agenda is what goes to F.O.H.

As far as I can see, this is the only way you'll be able to send your signal to both F.O.H., and onstage amps, and have consistent results. There must be more to the story???

[DunedinDragon]

If you want consistency in your sound why wouldn't you just send a monitor feed back from the sound board to the stage?  Certainly if you split the signals between amps and FOH Direct like what you're talking about, your stage sound won't be consistent with what's broadcast/recorded.

 

Also have you mentioned to the sound engineers that you need stereo separation?  Typically most sound engineers don't separate channels left and right for live performances because only a small portion of the audience are in optimal positions to be able to hear the stereo separation consistently.

[Zaiten]

If your having stereo fx (as well as amp simulation), as part of your sound, I don't get why you wouldn't want this feature to be part of your stage sound. Why don't you make sure the amps supplied have effects loops, and just plug the Pod's 1/4" outputs to the fx return on those, so all your sounds generated by the Pod are simply going into a power amp/speaker setup? It may not be the "perfect" sound for you onstage, but I find having full modelling (including cab emulation), through a power amp/cab setup can be fine, if your "more important" agenda is what goes to F.O.H.

As far as I can see, this is the only way you'll be able to send your signal to both F.O.H., and onstage amps, and have consistent results. There must be more to the story???

 

hadn't considered that route. Would it work despite setting the system outputs to Studio/direct? you're correct in that XLR to FOH/DAW is my priority. 

 

 

If you want consistency in your sound why wouldn't you just send a monitor feed back from the sound board to the stage?  Certainly if you split the signals between amps and FOH Direct like what you're talking about, your stage sound won't be consistent with what's broadcast/recorded.

 

Also have you mentioned to the sound engineers that you need stereo separation?  Typically most sound engineers don't separate channels left and right for live performances because only a small portion of the audience are in optimal positions to be able to hear the stereo separation consistently.

 

yeah, ditching amps entirely is feasible. I'm tired of unpredictable results when relying on venue amps, specially open air festivals (with low budgets). What worries me is that sometimes small bars or theaters don't have powerful enough FOH and stage monitoring to compensate for the additional load -vocal mics, synths, and then guitars on top of that-. Hence, why I'd prefer to utilize their amps for stage output, at the expense of consistency with the broadcast/recorded signal.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this stuff...

[jandrio]

yes, u can do FOUR OUTPUTS as foll (study+tweak attached demo patch setting Inputs 1/2 accordingly):

1.split the signal (path A+path B ).

2.place the FX LOOP on path B.

3.feed the two amps from the FX SEND 1/4 stereo (TRS) jack (this is the dry signal).

4.place all other FX blocks + amp block as required.

5.feed the pa via the two XLR outputs (this is the stereo signal with full amp/cab simulation, set Output mode=Studio/Direct).

6.enjoy :)

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/mlaxaagps72rcls/FourOutputs.png

 

Note that i f u place the FX LOOP first on the signal chain, u can even have FOUR OUTPUTS with TWO AMP sims (dual amp/cab) feeding the pa...

four outputs.zip

[eenymason]

hadn't considered that route. Would it work despite setting the system outputs to Studio/direct? you're correct in that XLR to FOH/DAW is my priority. 

 

 

 

yeah, ditching amps entirely is feasible. I'm tired of unpredictable results when relying on venue amps, specially open air festivals (with low budgets). What worries me is that sometimes small bars or theaters don't have powerful enough FOH and stage monitoring to compensate for the additional load -vocal mics, synths, and then guitars on top of that-. Hence, why I'd prefer to utilize their amps for stage output, at the expense of consistency with the broadcast/recorded signal.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this stuff...

I use studio direct out, into a stereo valve power amp, into two cabs. The Marshall 2x12 cab is a bit dark for me personally, but funnily enough I only really noticed it, when I bought a Line 6 Spider combo minus the amp section (which apparently was dead), which has two 10" Celestion Seventy 80 (actually labelled Line 6 G10P-80) speakers, and it's obviously open backed, and it's a better match as the speakers are more flat response than the G12-65's in the Marshall.

So depending on the amps available, you'll be able to hear (pretty much), what FOH will hear. As I say it won't be perfect, and you may have to tweak the (real) amp a bit for tone, but I'm sure you'll be pretty happy. If you can, try out some amps with an FX loop in your rehearsal studio. Alternatively, you could specify you need two powered monitors, dedicated to your guitar signal for onstage purposes - then the Studio direct setup is not a problem at all. Two xlrs to FOH, and two 1/4" outs to the monitors - beware the 1/4" outs are instrument level, and so are higher output signal.

Good luck with it!

[DunedinDragon]

I've never felt comfortable totally putting my fate in the hands of any venue unless they're a well-known quantity, which can be pretty rare.  That's why I'll at least bring my own monitor.  If nothing else I can drive that off of my 1/4" outs and feed my XLR to the board and be pretty assured the audience is hearing what I'm hearing as well as get a sense of how I'm blending with everyone else on stage.

[jandrio]

tks nico, the post is actually an EXACT answer rather than a general purpose discussion...

now abt the patch dtls+settings, of course u r right, i just compiled it on-the-fly as a general how-to-framework-example....

 

ps

not sure abt the mix param, i think the send param controlls the signal fed 2 the stereo SEND output, must check with the pod....

 

2nd correction:

nico u r right, mix parameter needs 2 b at 100%

quoting from POD HD500 Advanced Guide v2.0, page 5-4:

 

Mix:

Blends the FX Loop signal that with the POD HD tone signal. When set to  100%, the full POD HD500 signal is fed to the  SEND . When set to 0%, your input  signal bypasses the FX Loop completely, so that you’ll hear only your POD HD  processed signal.

Be sure to set the Mix to less than 100%, or toggle the FX Loop  Block “Off,†if you do not have a complete connection between the device’s  SEND &  RETURN jacks, or you’ll hear only silence from the output of POD HD50

Edited November 19, 2015 by jandrio

[pianoguyy]

 

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Also, what's the purpose of the little switch on the front panel of the chassis (1/4" out: line/amp)?  Line6 documentation is unspecific about it; Why would they add a hardware switch to the unit (to affect the 1/4 jacks only) when there's a setup option to assign a global output mode? does the switch work as an override?

 

 

 

As to the 2nd question --- 

 

The global setting is more of a sound helper - in layman's terms, it it an auto eq that selects the best characteristics for each hookup. But don't repeat it that way because that is in no way shape or form how it works, lol. 

While the physical button selects the, again in layman's terms, the volume that is best used for each input type. 

 

Basically, you set the global setting on day one, and then make sounds. Don't change it or all of your sounds will change. But the physical button can be changed based on the daily setup needed with no change to your sound. 

 

I feel as if you should use 'studio/direct' if you are going direct. It doesn't matter if you are running other outputs at the same time. The direct sound, in my opinion, should take precedence.

[jandrio]

already did, posted 2nd correction :)

[pianoguyy]

That's funny!

It wasn't meant to be funny. There were just a couple different ways he could have meant what he said. 

He has since edited it to be more clear. 

 

And let's face it. I was at the bar getting ready to host the last viewing party of the year. I was probably not in a the best frame of mind to be posting, lol. 

But I had time to kill while waiting, so I checked in. 

[cruisinon2]

I've never felt comfortable totally putting my fate in the hands of any venue unless they're a well-known quantity, which can be pretty rare.

C'mon, why not? So what if the "sound man" is the same guy who refills the ice bins behind the bar....;)

[Zaiten]

yes, u can do FOUR OUTPUTS as foll (study+tweak attached demo patch setting Inputs 1/2 accordingly):

1.split the signal (path A+path B ).

2.place the FX LOOP on path B.

3.feed the two amps from the FX SEND 1/4 stereo (TRS) jack (this is the dry signal).

4.place all other FX blocks + amp block as required.

5.feed the pa via the two XLR outputs (this is the stereo signal with full amp/cab simulation, set Output mode=Studio/Direct).

6.enjoy :)

 

http://www.mediafire.com/view/mlaxaagps72rcls/FourOutputs.png

 

Note that i f u place the FX LOOP first on the signal chain, u can even have FOUR OUTPUTS with TWO AMP sims (dual amp/cab) feeding the pa...

Thanks for the samples and thorough explanation. However, this solution didn't work for me because the HD500X does not have dual FX-LOOP blocks to place in both signal chains (I play in stereo with effects littering both paths). I was actually tricked when I bought the pod, I was told that since there were two return jacks and a TRS send jack, I would be able to hook up two analog pedals in separate FX-loops; not the case.  

 

 

I feel as if you should use 'studio/direct' if you are going direct. It doesn't matter if you are running other outputs at the same time. The direct sound, in my opinion, should take precedence.

you're right, "studio/direct" must take precedence! 

 

So depending on the amps available, you'll be able to hear (pretty much), what FOH will hear. As I say it won't be perfect, and you may have to tweak the (real) amp a bit for tone, but I'm sure you'll be pretty happy. If you can, try out some amps with an FX loop in your rehearsal studio. Alternatively, you could specify you need two powered monitors, dedicated to your guitar signal for onstage purposes - then the Studio direct setup is not a problem at all. Two xlrs to FOH, and two 1/4" outs to the monitors - beware the 1/4" outs are instrument level, and so are higher output signal.

Good luck with it!

thanks, So to recap, in order to utilize stage amps, I´d plug the 1/4 jacks into the "return" Loops of the tube amp head (or solid combo) to bypass a coloring preamp section. I would then ignore both the send jack and the front input, am I right? Final question, I've heard some power amp sections do not have volume control ...which means they would be at full blast and that could be potentially destructive. Should I run the 1/4 outputs through pedals with volume knobs to attenuate the signal? I have a BOSS LS2 mixer and a LM2 limiter lying around.