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mjorden

Noticeable delay when switching patches

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I can't believe how many people seem to think they're use of the device is the only "right" way to use it.....we get it, you can get away with one patch, lots of us can't, or don't want to, considering all of the available options. Maybe you bought the Helix because you wanted to have a bunch of little pedalboards. I bought it so I wouldn't have to tap dance, but in order to use it live, I'm stuck with one high-gain amp, one clean amp, and I have to do "background" switching on the off channel while playing to have things go the way I want instead of just hitting A01 for my dirt, A02 for my cleans with delays, A03 for my lead tone, and A04 for my smooth jazz clean with reverb. If I want all that in one song with no noticeable switching lag, I gotta make sure my delay is on my clean channel before I engage it, disengage the delay when I switch to my dirt channel again, then engage an EQ and reverb for my "other" clean tone, then engage my delay/chorus/and boost for my lead tone while I'm on my clean tone so I can have my lead ready to go when I switch to it....oh wait, but then I have to switch back to that original clean tone so then I have to disengage my EQ/Reverb while playing with my lead tone, then switch off all my lead stuff again while I'm on my clean tone....it may not be as many individual button presses if I was trying to do that with a traditional pedalboard, but its still A LOT of tapdancing to keep things clean on the switching, which detracts from my ability to be entertaining while I play, which sucks.

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There is really no reason to need to use more than one preset for one song.

 

Shhh you. Someone should just lock this thread, I think it's been pretty well argued out by now.

That reads like someone is trolling. It has been clearly established that the patch switching delay is a real issue for some Helix users. Posting to tell them that it isn't a problem (for YOU) and then saying that the thread should be closed does not look good.

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I also bought a JTV 89, because I believed I would be able to do things that would otherwise be impossible.  For instance, in a particular song I wanted to go from a clean, compressed, 'funky'  Strat sound to a roaring Les Paul, in a blink. I haven't found a way  to do that yet,  within one preset that is. Maybe I'm missing something.  Was that such an excentric, outrageous thing to expect, considering all the publicity?
I am now, as some posters suggested, in the process of making a preset per song. Sure, it works, but I'm constantly confronted with limitations, and  it sometimes feels like I'm solving a sudoku, which is not exactly my favourite hobby. 

 

And the fact that the sound quality is so good makes it even more frustrating, of course, you want to be able to use what you want, when you want it. Like I said before: it's a catch 22.

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I also bought a JTV 89, because I believed I would be able to do things that would otherwise be impossible.  For instance, in a particular song I wanted to go from a clean, compressed, 'funky'  Strat sound to a roaring Les Paul, in a blink. 

 

Easy.

 

On Helix, create two paths, one is mags (you'll get that LP sound from the magnetics), the other the models (obviously using the strat model). Have either a footswitch or EXP toggle between them, or set it up so you can have both at the same time if you want.

 

You can have each path have its own amp, then either have each path have its own cab or they could even share a cab (or dual cab if you want).

 

Could be an amazing sound!

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Easy.

 

On Helix, create two paths, one is mags (you'll get that LP sound from the magnetics), the other the models (obviously using the strat model). Have either a footswitch or EXP toggle between them, or set it up so you can have both at the same time if you want.

 

You can have each path have its own amp, then either have each path have its own cab or they could even share a cab (or dual cab if you want).

 

Could be an amazing sound!

 

Could very well not work if you need alternate tunings too..

 

I'll agree with the OP... Preset changes "COULD" and "SHOULD" be better... Hopefully when they start revisiting some of the code they can do some optimizations and employ some trickery to lessen the noticeable gap between preset changes. Even if the implementation dictates that there be a gap... there are things that can be done to lessen it's effect even if it is not eliminated.

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I can't believe how many people seem to think they're use of the device is the only "right" way to use it.....we get it, you can get away with one patch, lots of us can't, or don't want to, considering all of the available options. Maybe you bought the Helix because you wanted to have a bunch of little pedalboards. I bought it so I wouldn't have to tap dance, but in order to use it live, I'm stuck with one high-gain amp, one clean amp, and I have to do "background" switching on the off channel while playing to have things go the way I want instead of just hitting A01 for my dirt, A02 for my cleans with delays, A03 for my lead tone, and A04 for my smooth jazz clean with reverb. If I want all that in one song with no noticeable switching lag, I gotta make sure my delay is on my clean channel before I engage it, disengage the delay when I switch to my dirt channel again, then engage an EQ and reverb for my "other" clean tone, then engage my delay/chorus/and boost for my lead tone while I'm on my clean tone so I can have my lead ready to go when I switch to it....oh wait, but then I have to switch back to that original clean tone so then I have to disengage my EQ/Reverb while playing with my lead tone, then switch off all my lead stuff again while I'm on my clean tone....it may not be as many individual button presses if I was trying to do that with a traditional pedalboard, but its still A LOT of tapdancing to keep things clean on the switching, which detracts from my ability to be entertaining while I play, which sucks.

 

I actually use it as my entire live rig. It has replaced all my pedals (except a fuzz, which is in one of the loops) and amps and cabs. When I need it, I will bring a PA speaker to a gig to use it. The one song per preset method is, I think, the best way to take advantage of what it has to offer. And it's super easy to copy and paste things from one preset into another, so it's not even that much work to do it. I have like 20 presets for my one band so far, working on setting them up for another. And all of that was done without even using the Editor.

 

And with all that, I've still got it set up for an absolute minimum of button presses. I don't need any more than the bottom row of 4 switches on any preset. This includes a patch that goes from a driven tone with delay and a volume pedal to no delay or volume pedal (actually now that I think about it I could simplify further by bypassing the delay with the toe switch) to a solo with volume boost, harmony, and delay, then later the outro has a different harmonizer. Each section needs only one button press.

 

Obviously, if you NEED to go between like 5 different amp tones in one song, my method isn't going to work for you. In that case, yes, it would be nice if the presets could switch faster. But even then, the switching delay on my real amp Mesa Boogie Roadster is about the same (or worse) than that of the Helix and, while annoying, it was always something I could work around. As others have mentioned, the switching delay is probably never going to go away, so you can either work around it (by my method or by simply working around the lag time) or do something else.

 

 

 

That reads like someone is trolling. It has been clearly established that the patch switching delay is a real issue for some Helix users. Posting to tell them that it isn't a problem (for YOU) and then saying that the thread should be closed does not look good.

 

So, I'm not trolling? But believe what you want. I suggest closing the thread because there is no new information and nothing is ever going to get solved by us arguing about something that can't be fixed, so this is a completely pointless thread. Would be better relegated to an FAQ topic.

 

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giphy.gif

 

 

[...] there is no new information and nothing is ever going to get solved by us arguing about something that can't be fixed, so this is a completely pointless thread. [...]

 

Oh ooh, I know what happens next...

 

I guess it depends a lot

* if you are willing to change your habits (for example using one patch per song)

* if you play a style of music that doesn't need a outstanding number of sound changes (per song)

* if you understand that helix isn't just an effect gear (it is an excellent amp modeler and [...] and [...]

 

Maybe we can clear things up before the next endless discussion (with familiar arguments) starts ;)

 

...again?!

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Simple solution to all of this.

 

Get an H&K Grandmeister or Triamp MkIV, run the helix in a 4 cable method and you can have 128 different amplifier tones all on the same patch using midi commands. :D

 

Actually, with the button limitations, you could have 12 completely different amp/effects combinations set up on one preset.

 

Then we can start asking why there are only 12 foot switches per Helix. ;)

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Simple solution to all of this.

 

Get an H&K Grandmeister or Triamp MkIV, run the helix in a 4 cable method and you can have 128 different amplifier tones all on the same patch using midi commands. :D

 

Actually, with the button limitations, you could have 12 completely different amp/effects combinations set up on one preset.

 

Then we can start asking why there are only 12 foot switches per Helix. ;)

 

Simple solution for apprx. 1200 bucks (at least)  :wacko:

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Simple solution for apprx. 1200 bucks (at least)  :wacko:

 

Cheaper than a Helix :p

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Simple solution to all of this.

 

Get an H&K Grandmeister or Triamp MkIV, run the helix in a 4 cable method and you can have 128 different amplifier tones all on the same patch using midi commands. :D

 

Actually, with the button limitations, you could have 12 completely different amp/effects combinations set up on one preset.

 

Then we can start asking why there are only 12 foot switches per Helix. ;)

 

I hate to burst the bubble... but I use a H&K switchblade with 128 MIDI presets with my Helix and it's not as good as it may seem.

 

Yes I can set up 10 footswitches to send different amp presets from within one Helix preset.. but I cannot turn any of the Helix's FX blocks off and on with the same switch.. because effectively the H&K is recalling a "scene" when you send it a PC message.. whereas the Helix would toggle an FX block off or on with a button press.

 

And as we all know you can only assign one Helix block to one footswitch...  AAAAAARRRRGH.

 

This is why I have to leave my H&K in one preset per Helix preset, then I use Helix boosts / fuzz etc to go from clean to crunch to solos.

 

This is also why I say "Scene Mode FTW ;) "

 

EDIT - and to clarify.. I don't think we actually really need a full scene mode with every single setting for every block.  I just wish we could basically make the footswitch send a particular value like "ON" or "BYPASS" or "40%mix" or "2.2kHz" depending on what you were wanting to control.  See my idea scale.... http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Scene-Mode-Lite-footswitch-value-assignment/819032-23508

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Ok, guess we got your message. Besides - no need to BUMP :angry:

 

Good show, glad the message is getting through!  ;)  You no like the bumps? OK fair dos!

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I hate to burst the bubble... but I use a H&K switchblade with 128 MIDI presets with my Helix and it's not as good as it may seem.

 

Yes I can set up 10 footswitches to send different amp presets from within one Helix preset.. but I cannot turn any of the Helix's FX blocks off and on with the same switch.. because effectively the H&K is recalling a "scene" when you send it a PC message.. whereas the Helix would toggle an FX block off or on with a button press.

 

And as we all know you can only assign one Helix block to one footswitch...  AAAAAARRRRGH.

 

This is why I have to leave my H&K in one preset per Helix preset, then I use Helix boosts / fuzz etc to go from clean to crunch to solos.

 

This is also why I say "Scene Mode FTW ;) "

 

EDIT - and to clarify.. I don't think we actually really need a full scene mode with every single setting for every block.  I just wish we could basically make the footswitch send a particular value like "ON" or "BYPASS" or "40%mix" or "2.2kHz" depending on what you were wanting to control.  See my idea scale.... http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Scene-Mode-Lite-footswitch-value-assignment/819032-23508

Weird. I have the Grandmesiter (not my main amp, but I've hooked it up to the Helix) and I have no problem doing this (although I didn't go full monty and do 10 of them). The only obstacle is setting up additional chorus/flange/etc if necessary due to assigning an effects block to only one foot switch if I want it on instantly with the amp channel change..

 

Scenes would be nice though.

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..... The only obstacle is setting up additional chorus/flange/etc if necessary due to assigning an effects block to only one foot switch if I want it on instantly with the amp channel change..

 

Exactly.  If I wanted to use the Helix as a slightly larger version of the footswitch that comes with my H&K and do nothing else other than switch amp channels I am golden.  Doing anything else is the problem.   Either you have to use the Helix in Preset mode and that means no spillover, or use it in Stomp mode and that means you can't switch H&K amps and Helix FX at the same time.

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Exactly.  If I wanted to use the Helix as a slightly larger version of the footswitch that comes with my H&K and do nothing else other than switch amp channels I am golden.  Doing anything else is the problem.   Either you have to use the Helix in Preset mode and that means no spillover, or use it in Stomp mode and that means you can't switch H&K amps and Helix FX at the same time.

Sure you can. Set up a footswitch to send a midi channel change to the HK and also turn effects on and off at the same time. I have a few patches where I have 2 or 3 different verbs or delays on the same patch specifically for this. In some cases I have the same delyor verb 2 or 3 times to make this work, but i works great.

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And as we all know you can only assign one Helix block to one footswitch...  AAAAAARRRRGH.

 

 

I think this is where the confusion lies.

 

Sure you can.  You can assign up to 8 blocks to each footswitch. But you can only assign an individual block to one footswitch not to several footswitches.

 

So create the same block again and assign it to a second footswitch with a second HK channel.  And a third, etc etc.

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I think this is where the confusion lies.

 

Sure you can.  You can assign up to 8 blocks to each footswitch. But you can only assign an individual block to one footswitch not to several footswitches.

 

So create the same block again and assign it to a second footswitch with a second HK channel.  And a third, etc etc.

 

 

Yes - you could set up 3 footswitches - each sending a different MIDI channel.. each also set to toggle some FX.  But we don't want to toggle the FX. We want them to either come on or off when we press a switch.

Sure you can. Set up a footswitch to send a midi channel change to the HK and also turn effects on and off at the same time. I have a few patches where I have 2 or 3 different verbs or delays on the same patch specifically for this. In some cases I have the same delyor verb 2 or 3 times to make this work, but i works great.

 

Doing it that way to get from sound 1 to sound 2 you should just have to press the second foot switch - not press the first one again to turn off the the FX and then press the second one.  Is that what you are doing?   If so are you telling me you are happy with that?  You wouldn't prefer having to press just one button?  

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Yes - you could set up 3 footswitches - each sending a different MIDI channel.. each also set to toggle some FX.  But we don't want to toggle the FX. We want them to either come on or off when we press a switch.

Sure you can. Set up a footswitch to send a midi channel change to the HK and also turn effects on and off at the same time. I have a few patches where I have 2 or 3 different verbs or delays on the same patch specifically for this. In some cases I have the same delyor verb 2 or 3 times to make this work, but i works great.

 

Doing it that way to get from sound 1 to sound 2 you should just have to press the second foot switch - not press the first one again to turn off the the FX and then press the second one.  Is that what you are doing?   If so are you telling me you are happy with that?  You wouldn't prefer having to press just one button?  

I do just press one button.

 

Default setting gets me the clean channel and an octoverb + univibe.

Then I hit a footswitch and it changes to the crunch channel on my HK via midi as well as turning off the octoverb and vibe and turning on a plate reverb and delay. I hit that switch again and it goes back to the default.

 

Make sense? I can have that one footswitch do 8 different things and some of those would be turning off effects as well as turning on effects. Or activating a parallel path with several effects or shutting it off. Or turning off one main path and turning the otner one on by swapping the input status.

 

Also I have several patches where I bypass the HK altogether and use the modeling in the Helix.

 

On in particular has 3 midi channel changes for the HK and 2 models from the helix going to just the effects return. I have different effects assigned at different times.

 

honestly I don't use this for my live rig because I really don't need that kind of flexibility in one patch, but I wanted to see if I could do it so I did.

 

I use either my Egnater Vengeance or DT50 half stack for live use. I don't even bother with 4 cable as I don't need it, but it would add 2 more guitar tones if I needed them.

 

My main patch has an Engl model from the Helix and some verb for my main patch. That's my mean and potatoes tone.

 

For the other tones I have a clean, that I hit one footswitch, and it kills the Engl and the verb and turns on a Whowatt with a different verb and delay. Hit the switch (clean/dirty) again and I have my main tone again with trails from the delay.

 

I also have a crunch switch set up where I use a footswitch as a controller to drop the gain and raise the channel volume on the engl model to get a medium gain tone. I leave the reverb on (as I can't assign it to 2 footswitches) but also add in a phaser when the crunch channel is engaged.

 

Additionally, I use the courtesan flange and optcial vibe as effects on the main channel that are set up strictly as footswitches as is a momentary clean boost. and a separate boost+delay for soloing.

 

It all works really well. Now that I got a Variax last thursday I have the clean patches set up a bit differently with a tube mic preamp model and compressor/eq etc for acoustic sounds and sitar sounds. So I have the down position of my JTV59 as the 89 bridge pickup, the middle position as the sitar and the neck position as the acoustic guitar. if I go to the clean channel, I select the acoustic or sitar depending on which song it is.

 

Now, granted, I'm playing all originals and not covers, so It's probably a bit easier for me to set up my presets based on the flow of the songs I play as opposed to having to have 42 different tones in a night. But you really won' need 42 tones in a song. I have 3 presets set up for individual songs in our sets and I have one main preset for probably all but 4 or 5 of out tunes.

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I do just press one button.

 

Default setting gets me the clean channel and an octoverb + univibe.

Then I hit a footswitch and it changes to the crunch channel on my HK via midi as well as turning off the octoverb and vibe and turning on a plate reverb and delay. I hit that switch again and it goes back to the default.

 

 

How on earth do you make it switch between two H&K MIDI presets with one Helix Footswitch?  Please Tell :)

 

 

It's interesting the many ways it's possible to use Helix - you certainly have been exploring a lot of options there!!  

 

I really love using the Helix and I am almost content with it.  There are work arounds for most things I want to do - but when these scenes or whatever are sorted (as Digital Igloo has hinted at..) - I will probably be totally happy :D  

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How on earth do you make it switch between two H&K MIDI presets with one Helix Footswitch?  Please Tell :)

 

 

It's interesting the many ways it's possible to use Helix - you certainly have been exploring a lot of options there!!  

 

I really love using the Helix and I am almost content with it.  There are work arounds for most things I want to do - but when these scenes or whatever are sorted (as Digital Igloo has hinted at..) - I will probably be totally happy :D

I switch between 2 channels out of my 4 on the H&K using Midi Toggle (CC=31). Not presets. There is no program toggle. If I have 2 of these set up I can toggle between all 4 channels of my grandmeister as well as 2 or 3 models on the helix.

 

However, I could (at least int theory, I'll have to try it) do the same thing with program changes, but I would be selecting preset 1, preset 7, preset 17 and preset 31 if I wanted and then assign the appropriate effects blocks to those program changes by toggling off blocks while I toggle on blocks. I haven't tried that, but I might just for fun. The trick will be setting up the paths correctly and being able to control them with the same footswitch as the program change. I think I could do that, I'll have to play with it though. This is where the 2 seperate processors really helps. Especially if you are not draining the capabilities by using your amp tones rather than models. You can load up a metric ton of effects blocks to manipulate in 2 separate paths if necessary.

 

 

having said all that, scenes would be the best solution and hopefully it's at the top of the ideascale list. ;)

 

I like the challenge of making machines submit to my will, but easy is also good. :D

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Ahh i see! My H&K Switchblade does not accept MIDI cc commands (unless it's some secret and not in the manual) - as far as I know you can only use MIDI to select a preset (or do Tap Tempo I guess.. which is a cc).   The Grandmeister is more sophisticated :)

 

There is a TRS socket I could use on my amp to switch between channels.. but when you do that it also remembers the last thing that was used on that channel and switches to it's settings... kind of like switching preset but not quite.... might be worth a try I guess!  Options are good.

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Ahh i see! My H&K Switchblade does not accept MIDI cc commands (unless it's some secret and not in the manual) - as far as I know you can only use MIDI to select a preset (or do Tap Tempo I guess.. which is a cc).   The Grandmeister is more sophisticated :)

 

There is a TRS socket I could use on my amp to switch between channels.. but when you do that it also remembers the last thing that was used on that channel and switches to it's settings... kind of like switching preset but not quite.... might be worth a try I guess!  Options are good.

Gotcha.  My other guitar player has a switchblande and while it's a great sounding head, I haven't messed with the Midi capabilities of it at all. That would make sense as to why you were having trouble doing this.

 

the Grandmeister (and Triamp) can accept midi CC commands for a lot of stuff. I can control pretty much any parameter of the amp directly from the helix including the expression pedal to control effects depth etc IIRC. However, the effects in Helix are better than the ones in the Grandmeister. They aren't bad, just not nearly as good, versatile, or plentiful as the Helix. But I could still control gain, etc on the grandmeister with the volume pedal on the helix if I wanted to or pretty much anything else.

 

midi-cc-chart.jpg

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I don't find this to be problematic. I create song-specific presets. Depending on the song, I'll set up one amp configuration on one of the 2 available DSP paths, and a second amp setup on the second path. Both paths have what additional fx are needed to support that path. I'll setup a single foot switch to toggle between which amp setup is active and which is bypassed. Other foot switches may be assigned to manage fx in either signal chain.

 

The other added benefit of this approach is that I name my presets by the song name along with including the key signature in the name. I can then assemble a set list of "songs" knowing that when I hit the foot switch for that song, everything I need is immediately under my feet (including having the appropriate BPM tempo loaded given the number of songs we play that utilize click tracks and loops).

Mike, it sounds like the way you create your song-specific patches is a lot the way I do as well, but it isn't clear to me how you avoid the audio gap when switching between song-specific presets; using the 2nd signal path I understand, but can the tempo be adjusted automatically when switching to the second signal path? And if this is possible, what do you do for the rest of your songs?

 

To be clear, I build a preset for song 1 (at 130 BPM), and then a second preset for song 2 (at 110 BPM), each preset with different amp and effect settings (and then I do the same for song 3, song 4, etc.). The patches sound great (in my opinion), but the problem arises when we ring out song 1 and our in-ear click counts the band off to start song 2. The gap is short, but it's still a gap and in my opinion kills the transition.

 

So anyways, Mike I quoted you because you're the only person I saw in this thread that posted ANYTHING about song specific tempo (and it's possible I missed a post), so, again, I was wondering wondering, do you don't find the audio gap between song presets problematic?

 

And for everyone else, doesn't tempo alone merit the idea that using multiple presets that are song specific in a gig is more useful than being stuck on a single preset? It seems to me a song for a guitarist revolves a lot around their created tone, but a song for any musician revolves around a (normally) pretty specific tempo...

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Just took my Helix into the rehearsal room to run it through my rig.

 

Somewhat disappointed that Helix can't assign multiple controllers to the same FX or switch between patches with no delay; my battered old GT-100 could do both!

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Just took my Helix into the rehearsal room to run it through my rig.

 

Somewhat disappointed that Helix can't assign multiple controllers to the same FX or switch between patches with no delay; my battered old GT-100 could do both!

 

Yep it is a bit annoying.  I will be very happy when (if?) scenes or whatever gets released.

 

I can just about manage by getting creative with my controller assigning.  If you set one Footswitch to bypass an effect, and another footswtch to set the max to 100% and min to 0% you can effectively get the same effect block controlled by two switches.  Kind of works for a lot of things.

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Yep it is a bit annoying.  I will be very happy when (if?) scenes or whatever gets released.

 

I can just about manage by getting creative with my controller assigning.  If you set one Footswitch to bypass an effect, and another footswtch to set the max to 100% and min to 0% you can effectively get the same effect block controlled by two switches.  Kind of works for a lot of things.

 

That's pretty clever. Obviously I'd rather have first class support for a Many-to-Many block/switch setup this would cover 80% of my needs.

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That's pretty clever. Obviously I'd rather have first class support for a Many-to-Many block/switch setup this would cover 80% of my needs.

 

Yeah this solves most of my problems.. there's just a couple of situations where I have too many things switching and need to do a two pedal little tap dance - but thats better than a 8 pedal tap dance!

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I'm very, very happy with the snapshot feature  :D  Well done guys!

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He's not the OP, how does that work?!

 

I love by the way how the guys accusing people of trolling are actually being the biggest trolls. Wow. I thought this forum was better than Fractal's, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.

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Not really solved...because the gap between actual patches is still atrocious, but snapshots are going to make my life easier live.

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Not really solved...because the gap between actual patches is still atrocious, but snapshots are going to make my life easier live.

Snapshots do accommodate a huge number of scenarios/presets that don't require a whole lot of additional effects. For straight ahead rocking I can have three amps models and a cab, a 70's chorus, distortion, phaser, flanger, wah, touch-wah, compressor, and EQ, in a single preset, no problem. This covers me for most songs and allows me to have a virtual three channel amp with spillover and no switching latency. Magnificent! But for presets that require more DSP intensive effects like the tri-chorus or pitch shifting as well as a looper, or perhaps multiple IRs, etc., usually an amp channel or two may have to go to regain the necessary DSP if I want to keep the rest of my go-to effects in the signal chain. I know those kinds of presets might seem ridiculous to the large number of users who prefer simpler signal paths but there are occasions where it is nice to have everything but the kitchen sink jammed into a preset, or just have two presets with different effects, and switch presets during a fast song without getting a dropout. I agree with Gunmetal that snapshots do not mean that there is no reason not to keep working on reducing latency between presets but they do reduce the urgency. I hope L6 continues to work on reducing inter-preset switching latency. The snapshot feature is definitely a home-run. And, once again, I have to stress that the Helix feature-set is so great, is such a joy to program and play, sounds so bloody good and is so stage friendly that I am smiling ear to ear every time I plug in. L6 has really committed to making this thing great and they have succeeded!

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He's not the OP, how does that work?! ...

I agree it is a little premature to label this one solved given the topic's title. The switching situation has certainly improved exponentially with the addition of snapshots and will probably be enough to satisfy a large percentage of the Helix's users. Regarding the mechanics of it being marked solved, only the original poster(OP) of the topic can mark it solved (and maybe the L6 forum administrator Line6Tony although I don't think he marks other people's topics solved) so it was probably marked solved by mjorden, the fellow who started this topic and that is certainly his perogative (even if others including myself feel it is not yet "solved", just better by a country mile).

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