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Helix editor?! When?! Now


pv5150man
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Without wanting to reignite the debate, I feel I have to try so squash this rumor. This legal liability for public companies part is not true with regard to too much disclosure about product direction. It seems to be a misunderstanding of something that was communicated within Line 6.

Well then something I'm not aware of must have changed in the last several years. When I was an Officer in a publicly traded company several years ago I was certainly limited in the sort of information about product directions that I could talk about publicly. What we could and couldn't talk about was made very clear to us by the company's lawyers. And some of the information that users repeatedly request from Line 6 is exactly the sort of thing we could not disclose.

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Well then something I'm not aware of must have changed in the last several years. When I was an Officer in a publicly traded company several years ago I was certainly limited in the sort of information about product directions that I could talk about publicly. What we could and couldn't talk about was made very clear to us by the company's lawyers. And some of the information that users repeatedly request from Line 6 is exactly the sort of thing we could not disclose.

Nothing has changed legally in this area as far as I am aware. The only people who I have seen talking about these limitations is the previous thread here, about Line 6, and now you here. There are many public disclosure requirements, but the notion that one can't legally talk truthfully about intended product direction is one I have never heard anywhere before. Can you quote a law or precedent so I can have a look? Corporate lawyers of course usually err well and truly on the side of caution.

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I'm not a lawyer. All I know is that I and others were given clear guidance by lawyers. We could not disclose many things that we knew to be true until after the company had made a clear public disclosure, via official news release, about the intended product direction. These are the public disclosure requirements that you mention.

 

But before those requirements are met, knowledge can't be disclosed.

 

To put it in this context:

- a user makes a post here requesting information about product direction. Typically he/she is considering purchasing an existing product and is asking whether it is about to be rendered 'old' by a pending new product release.

- a Line 6 employee (or even 'Expert' under a non-disclosure agreement) knows that a new product is pending but it has not been officially announced. The public disclosure requirements have not yet been met (for legitimate marketing and other reasons).

- that employee/Expert would be breaking the law/agreement by answering the post with this inside information. And that's exactly what it's called in terms of insider trading rules and laws. It's illegal to disclose insider information and individuals are subject to prosecution.

 

 

... and it always seems to be overly cautious behaviour. Until you're charged with insider trading, or being an accessory to it.

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The infamous form of insider trading is the illegal use of undisclosed material information for profit. 

 

On the NDA, participants promise to not divulge or release information shared with them by the other people involved. If the information is leaked, the injured person can claim breach of contract. An example, public disclosure of a new invention (breaking an NDA) can void patent rights. In other words and in certain cases, there go's the profits... This can be very serious stuff.

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That's why God invented stage monitors.

Ive used the passive stage PA monitors with separate sends blah blah before. Im just not liking the normal passive PA stage monitor tone as much as lets say a a 500 watt CLR FRFR, or for that matter a 12" guitar speaker cab powered up with a tube head. Those are the real guitar stage monitors.

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I also am not lawyer so I am speaking strictly as a layman. Many requests by users for information can fall under the umbrella of legal issues like NDAs, or information that could come under insider trading rules, or promising something that ends up not being delivered on time or at all and then constitutes a breach of promise, although breach of promise can often be mitigated by disclaimers. You see them all the time on company websites e.g. "Specs may differ in final product, hardware may differ from version to version, etc" . Sometimes it just comes down to not letting the competition know what is next in the pipeline.

I think sometimes though it is simple as sales numbers. It may be for instance more profitable to let people know that the editor is coming than promising a delivery date that may cause people to wait to buy the product; by which time there may be a competing product on the market. Not saying this is the case here but these scenarios do arise where it is not necessarily a legal issue but a sales driven one. And sometimes there is a fine line between a sales driven decision and one that could have legal ramifications.

There will also always be the possibility of deadlines slipping with complex software. This can lead to a publicity nightmare if a specific date is promised, even if disclaimers prevent it from resulting in a successful lawsuit against the company.

Ultimately I just wish L6 either had the resources or the margin to throw more programmers and resources at things like firmware updates,  features, amps, and effects, bug fixes, and yes, the editor. They have to decide where the balance between profit and customer satisfaction lies and I would imagine there are a bunch of marketing and sales guys in weekly meetings with graphs and numbers doing just that. As a customer I definitely would prefer to see them lean heavily towards customer satisfaction and take the long view on profits.

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Ultimately I just wish L6 either had the resources or the margin to throw more programmers and resources at things like firmware updates,  features, amps, and effects, bug fixes, and yes, the editor. They have to decide where the balance between profit and customer satisfaction lies and I would imagine there are a bunch of marketing and sales guys in weekly meetings with graphs and numbers doing just that. As a customer I definitely would prefer to see them lean heavily towards customer satisfaction and take the long view on profits.

 

 

"CALABASAS, CA – 20.Dec 2013 - Yamaha Corporation and Line 6, Inc. today announced a definitive agreement for Yamaha to acquire Line 6, a leading manufacturer of innovative solutions for musicians. The acquisition expands Yamaha’s portfolio of modeling guitar processing products as well as pro-audio equipment, and offers new and exciting opportunities for accelerated growth for both companies."

 

 

Without knowing specifics they in my opinion have the resources. What they at Yamaha decide to do with those resources is a whole other thing...

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"CALABASAS, CA – 20.Dec 2013 - Yamaha Corporation and Line 6, Inc. today announced a definitive agreement for Yamaha to acquire Line 6, a leading manufacturer of innovative solutions for musicians. The acquisition expands Yamaha’s portfolio of modeling guitar processing products as well as pro-audio equipment, and offers new and exciting opportunities for accelerated growth for both companies."

 

 

Without knowing specifics they in my opinion have the resources. What they at Yamaha decide to do with those resources is a whole other thing...

 

Yamaha does not micro-manage or "run" companies that they own, historically. You can't just put a bunch of Yamaha software engineers on a plane for California. I really doubt it works anything remotely like that.

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Probably true but they don't have to be in California to write SW for Line6 products.  I work for a company that is part in California, part in Colorado, and part in Japan.  We all work on common products and firmware.

 

yes, but L6 is owned by Yamaha, not necessarily part of yamaha.

 

Years ago when they owned Korg, Korg maintained its own identity. You didn't see Yamaha SPX stuff suddenly make its way into Korg products.

 

I suspect it's the same here, but I suspect that Frank and Eric and all the rest of 'em can't talk about it anyway.

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Yamaha does not micro-manage or "run" companies that they own, historically. You can't just put a bunch of Yamaha software engineers on a plane for California. I really doubt it works anything remotely like that.

 

And just how "historically" do you know that? Are you kin to the CEO at Yamaha Hamm?  ;)

 

Just wondering how you can make such a flat statement, or was this just another opinion as mine was?

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And just how "historically" do you know that? Are you kin to the CEO at Yamaha Hamm?  ;)

 

Just wondering how you can make such a flat statement, or was this just another opinion as mine was?

 

 

Only based on knowing a few people in the industry and managing the keyboard at one of the larger music stores in the country back when Yamaha owned Korg.

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I hate text sometimes... Im not upset. Im calm. No bickering here. Really. Just my opinion. Just calling a spade a spade. And Just because we all know a few people in the industry means very little as to what Yamaha tells Line 6 to do, or not do. Piano or used car salesman, its still pure speculation from all of us here me included. In other words we know nothing John Snow. I just brought the point up because its a valid opinion to assume that Yamaha can add resources when and where they are needed, as they see fit. Its their rodeo. To dismiss that line of reasoning is foolish. To assume my assumption is more than speculation is also foolish. I know that... But my opinion is Line 6 will do what their boss tells um to, and if Yamaha  (their boss as far as I see it) tells them to add more people/resources for the Helix editor, they will... And I personally think that would be a good thing ;)

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Can a moderator either clean up this thread or lock it?

I come here for information, not childish bickering.

Although I upvoted you, since you don't know about this forum, allow me to tell you that for a thread to be locked up or cleaned up, there must be a flame war or insults, and all of us (users) are quite happy that there is so much freedom here, even if sometimes we hijack a thread.

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Although I upvoted you, since you don't know about this forum, allow me to tell you that for a thread to be locked up or cleaned up, there must be a flame war or insults, and all of us (users) are quite happy that there is so much freedom here, even if sometimes we hijack a thread.

 

Yeah, I don't know where my head was that day. Probably having a bad day or something.

I've been on the web long enough to know that an established forum isn't going to shift protocol just because some n00b stamps his feet.

My apologies.

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Yeah, I don't know where my head was that day. Probably having a bad day or something.

I've been on the web long enough to know that an established forum isn't going to shift protocol just because some n00b stamps his feet.

My apologies.

 

Nah, no problem mate, everybody has his own days from time to time. After all you didn't insult anybody. Anyway, take care man and enjoy your time here.

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I bought my Helix editor last month! (see attached image)

 

Seriously though, it works well in the studio and actually being forced to use the helix interface means when the editor becomes available I will already be used to the HELIX controls and not reliant on the editor, it will be a 'Nice to have'

 

Lets face it, how many are going to take a PC on a gig to edit the sounds if needed? Oops have I started a possible thread about an IPAD/Android app?

 

I have had Line 6 amps and controllers for many years and I think so far the Helix is a crowning glory in their modelling, I found you had to work hard to get some sounds, especially pedals, from the HD500X but for me the HELIX has been almost instant.

 

The only disagreement I would say is some of the Line 6 interviews and demos (which have been great by the way) have tried to convince us that the HELIX is NOT an updated version of the HD500X, whilst this is true from a technical point of view, clearly it IS an update from a sound point of view. put an HD500X next to a HELIX and its a no branier!

 

post-62783-0-18344000-1456670352_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I bought my Helix editor last month! (see attached image)

 

Seriously though, it works well in the studio and actually being forced to use the helix interface means when the editor becomes available I will already be used to the HELIX controls and not reliant on the editor, it will be a 'Nice to have'

 

Lets face it, how many are going to take a PC on a gig to edit the sounds if needed? Oops have I started a possible thread about an IPAD/Android app?

 

I have had Line 6 amps and controllers for many years and I think so far the Helix is a crowning glory in their modelling, I found you had to work hard to get some sounds, especially pedals, from the HD500X but for me the HELIX has been almost instant.

 

The only disagreement I would say is some of the Line 6 interviews and demos (which have been great by the way) have tried to convince us that the HELIX is NOT an updated version of the HD500X, whilst this is true from a technical point of view, clearly it IS an update from a sound point of view. put an HD500X next to a HELIX and its a no branier!

 

Sometimes I take a Laptop on a gig, indeed - and would like to use the stand for it - which is occupied by the helix!

 

Already caught myself using a hand (!) for the EXP pedal (stupid, I guess).

 

This is a pedalboard (!!) and I want to use it that way ;)

 

I hope that saving, labeling, arranging and organizing becomes easier with the new editor.

 

I know l6 since pod 1.0 - helix will be really a great tool. But there's still a lot to do for the L6 crew...

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I do very very little programming "at the gig". I might have my rack on a stand during a rehearsal, and definitely when programming, but during a "gig" (church service in my case) it's down on the floor, just as hard to get to as the floor unit is.

 

And that's okay by me.
 

Again, the editor made the HD 500 EASIER to program (in many ways, although I prefer the actual unit for about 90% of editing functions), but I suspect, because of the layout (especially those 6 multi-function knobs and some of the stuff you can do by soft-touching the foot pedals) I actually think people might complain that the editor is HARDER to use for Helix (except perhaps on touch-screens, which, alas, Apple is too stupid to implement).

It'll still help with your back, though, won't it...

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I'm not a lawyer. All I know is that I and others were given clear guidance by lawyers. We could not disclose many things that we knew to be true until after the company had made a clear public disclosure, via official news release, about the intended product direction. These are the public disclosure requirements that you mention.

 

But before those requirements are met, knowledge can't be disclosed.

 

To put it in this context:

- a user makes a post here requesting information about product direction. Typically he/she is considering purchasing an existing product and is asking whether it is about to be rendered 'old' by a pending new product release.

- a Line 6 employee (or even 'Expert' under a non-disclosure agreement) knows that a new product is pending but it has not been officially announced. The public disclosure requirements have not yet been met (for legitimate marketing and other reasons).

- that employee/Expert would be breaking the law/agreement by answering the post with this inside information. And that's exactly what it's called in terms of insider trading rules and laws. It's illegal to disclose insider information and individuals are subject to prosecution.

 

 

... and it always seems to be overly cautious behaviour. Until you're charged with insider trading, or being an accessory to it.

Ahh, I see. Well that makes sense to me now, yes.

 

Just to clarify though,

 

on point 2), yes, it is illegal for someone under an NDA to make a disclosure. It's not necessarily illegal for an employee to do so per se, but sometimes it may be, and they may get fired.

on point 3), It's not so much that it is illegal to disclose inside information, apart from that mentioned in point 2. But, the problem with inside information is really twofold. 1) you, or anyone else, cannot trade on material, non-public information that you have. That is, private information that would affect the stock price if it were known. Nor can you pass it on to others so they can trade on it. 2) the company has to make efforts to publicly disclose private, material information in an efficient manner. That is, in a manner that the information becomes available to everyone at the same time, to the extent that they can. The forums here would be regarded as public, but probably not efficient.

 

None of this stops companies from disclosing information. In fact, active disclosure is encouraged by the regulators as it means that the investors have the best information on which to base their decisions. But, the efficient disclosure of information could definitely explain why lawyers throw down the "thou shalt not" hammer here. And of course, there are very good business reasons not to disclose your product plan to your competitors.

 

Thanks for the insight and the discussion. It helps to explain why people regard this as illegal.

 

Cheers.

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I actually think people might complain that the editor is HARDER to use for Helix (except perhaps on touch-screens, which, alas, Apple is too stupid to implement).

 

It'll still help with your back, though, won't it...

 

Im getting the rack unit so the back support problem is less of an issue for me (but I can see its worth with the floor units). The reason I do want that editor is because Im used to using it (because of the wonderful Axe FX II editor) sitting right next to my DAW software on the 2nd monitor screen. Makes the workflow so much easier because I hardly ever need to remove my eyes from the two monitor displays ! 

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Ive used the passive stage PA monitors with separate sends blah blah before. Im just not liking the normal passive PA stage monitor tone as much as lets say a a 500 watt CLR FRFR, or for that matter a 12" guitar speaker cab powered up with a tube head. Those are the real guitar stage monitors.

 

I hear you.  I was at Mission Engineering HQ a few weeks back and they are working on some pretty damn sexy FRFR products.  The price tag is through the roof, as it is with all FRFR's.  My other issue is that I run a stereo setup, so I would have to buy TWO of them.  But in the meantime, I make due with stage monitors.  As I'm used to them not being spot on, it's really no whoop.

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Ahh, I see. Well that makes sense to me now, yes.

 

Just to clarify though,

 

on point 2), yes, it is illegal for someone under an NDA to make a disclosure. It's not necessarily illegal for an employee to do so per se, but sometimes it may be, and they may get fired.

on point 3), It's not so much that it is illegal to disclose inside information, apart from that mentioned in point 2. But, the problem with inside information is really twofold. 1) you, or anyone else, cannot trade on material, non-public information that you have. That is, private information that would affect the stock price if it were known. Nor can you pass it on to others so they can trade on it. 2) the company has to make efforts to publicly disclose private, material information in an efficient manner. That is, in a manner that the information becomes available to everyone at the same time, to the extent that they can. The forums here would be regarded as public, but probably not efficient.

 

None of this stops companies from disclosing information. In fact, active disclosure is encouraged by the regulators as it means that the investors have the best information on which to base their decisions. But, the efficient disclosure of information could definitely explain why lawyers throw down the "thou shalt not" hammer here. And of course, there are very good business reasons not to disclose your product plan to your competitors.

 

Thanks for the insight and the discussion. It helps to explain why people regard this as illegal.

 

Cheers.

I deal with NDA's for a living.  Breaking one is NOT illegal; it is breach of contract and opens one up to liability from termination to litigation.  Nobody goes to jail for breaking an NDA unless they are under contract with a governmental entity and subject to criminal prosecution (ie treason or espionage).  HOWEVER, if one is licensed by the government and said liscensee breaks a fiduciary commitment (ie insider trading, violation of code of conduct, etc) then they can face punitive damages and possible criminal prosecution.

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I deal with NDA's for a living.  Breaking one is NOT illegal; it is breach of contract and opens one up to liability from termination to litigation.  Nobody goes to jail for breaking an NDA unless they are under contract with a governmental entity and subject to criminal prosecution (ie treason or espionage).  HOWEVER, if one is licensed by the government and said liscensee breaks a fiduciary commitment (ie insider trading, violation of code of conduct, etc) then they can face punitive damages and possible criminal prosecution.

 

Thanks for that clarification.

 

I do NOT deal with NDA's for a living and would add that if you are the kind of guy that breaks one, you may not go to jail, but you might, in fact, be a lollipop.

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I deal with NDA's for a living.  Breaking one is NOT illegal; it is breach of contract and opens one up to liability from termination to litigation.  Nobody goes to jail for breaking an NDA unless they are under contract with a governmental entity and subject to criminal prosecution (ie treason or espionage).  HOWEVER, if one is licensed by the government and said liscensee breaks a fiduciary commitment (ie insider trading, violation of code of conduct, etc) then they can face punitive damages and possible criminal prosecution.

The term legal/illegal does not apply exclusively to criminal law. Breaching a contract is illegal. Like all things in law, it is up for debate.

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BTW, Apologies, but I don't regard any of this as a hijacking. The answer to the original question is "the editor will be here when it will be here". Somebody with knowledge may tell us something more specific at some point, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The rest of this thread is just general discussion while we wait for the editor.

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