sbuie Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Like so many others, I have been patiently waiting for this beautiful thing to come off back order and arrive at my door. And today it did! Now, like so many others, I have had a horribly updating experience. From the word go, this is very poorly implemented. The website gives a link to get the HELIX updater, but the link is bad and takes you right back where you started. Digging through the forums, I found it. I also found the Helix driver. I installed both, per the instructions (it was really straight forward). I then proceeded to update my firmware, as directed in the support area of the site. My unit proceeded to fail the update, throw a little red zero in the top corner and refuse to boot. I tried different USB ports, uninstalling / reinstalling, tried downloading the files and updating locally...nothing... So, I opened a support ticket and refrained from throwing things out of frustration. I started looking around a bit and quickly realized, mine is not an isolated problem. Not by any means. A few people stated that they had to send theirs back, some say the tried different USB ports and it worked, some said they did not hear back from Line 6 support (although I have no idea in what time frame, perhaps they were being impatient). At any rate, out of stubbornness I shut it down, unplugged it, swapped the USB port on the back of my PC and tried again from the auto update of the app. Nothing. Still wouldn't boot. I shut it down and restarted it again, just from being in a daze of thinking that I now had a $1500 paper weight sitting on my desk and...it updated. Doing the exact same thing (same USB port, same procedure, same file). From 1.03. to 1.04.1. It still wouldn't boot though. Same issue. The firmware number had indeed changed. The symptoms had not. So, I restarted and got the 1.04.2 update to go in. It booted! I then did the 1.04.3 update and it worked. Aside from this updating fiasco, it seems like a great unit. It's easy to use, sounds great, looks great and is so flexible. It's a shame that a known issue and poor software coding / firmware updating had to detract from my (and several other's), experience. However, I wanted to post my experience in the hopes that if some other poor soul was about to pull his/her hair out, this might give them some encouragement to keep trying. Of course, then there was the issue of my PC (which has not given me any trouble prior), decided to BSoD on me after installing said software... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftzilla Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Well I am glad that you did post what happened to you and the reasoning behind it (encouragement). In my case the unit has been flawless other than the first update, which just required the factory preset rebuild. Since then the unit has bee flawless. I understand some peoples reluctance to adopt new hardware (especially 1500 dollar hardware) after reading some of these posts in the forum. For anyone on the fence, remember this type of forum regardless of what company, hardware, etc are by definition going to have more posts about problems than not. Obviously there are going to be some problems with new hardware/firmware/software and not every body is going to have a perfect experience, especially with the virtually infinite combinations of PC hardware out there. (3 different machines in my home alone, two of the machines have worked fine just haven't had a need to try it on the MacBook.) Glad things worked out for you and continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Like so many others, I have been patiently waiting for this beautiful thing to come off back order and arrive at my door. And today it did! Now, like so many others, I have had a horribly updating experience. From the word go, this is very poorly implemented. The website gives a link to get the HELIX updater, but the link is bad and takes you right back where you started. Digging through the forums, I found it. I also found the Helix driver. I installed both, per the instructions (it was really straight forward). I then proceeded to update my firmware, as directed in the support area of the site. My unit proceeded to fail the update, throw a little red zero in the top corner and refuse to boot. I tried different USB ports, uninstalling / reinstalling, tried downloading the files and updating locally...nothing... So, I opened a support ticket and refrained from throwing things out of frustration. I started looking around a bit and quickly realized, mine is not an isolated problem. Not by any means. A few people stated that they had to send theirs back, some say the tried different USB ports and it worked, some said they did not hear back from Line 6 support (although I have no idea in what time frame, perhaps they were being impatient). At any rate, out of stubbornness I shut it down, unplugged it, swapped the USB port on the back of my PC and tried again from the auto update of the app. Nothing. Still wouldn't boot. I shut it down and restarted it again, just from being in a daze of thinking that I now had a $1500 paper weight sitting on my desk and...it updated. Doing the exact same thing (same USB port, same procedure, same file). From 1.03. to 1.04.1. It still wouldn't boot though. Same issue. The firmware number had indeed changed. The symptoms had not. So, I restarted and got the 1.04.2 update to go in. It booted! I then did the 1.04.3 update and it worked. Aside from this updating fiasco, it seems like a great unit. It's easy to use, sounds great, looks great and is so flexible. It's a shame that a known issue and poor software coding / firmware updating had to detract from my (and several other's), experience. However, I wanted to post my experience in the hopes that if some other poor soul was about to pull his/her hair out, this might give them some encouragement to keep trying. Of course, then there was the issue of my PC (which has not given me any trouble prior), decided to BSoD on me after installing said software... Glad it worked for you in the end. Can you give the specs of your system? What OS are you running, and you do you have anything else attached to any of the USB ports? It would probably be helpful for Line 6 to know this sort of information. I think the thing that's difficult is that, like Leftzilla mentioned, there are tons of possible system configurations out there with any number of possible hardware or software conflicts coming into play. On my old laptop, for instance, I always had to disable the touchpad when I wanted to recorded via USB (not just with Line 6 hardware) because otherwise I would get clicks and pops in the recording. Sometimes getting stuff to play nice together is simply a matter of trial and error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroseberry Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 The USB controller (the Helix is connected to) is an important factor. Prior to Z77 series motherboards (and derivatives), literally *all* USB3 controllers were 3rd-party (as USB3 had not yet been integrated into the Intel chipset). Connecting audio/MIDI hardware to 3rd-party USB3 controllers is akin to using a Firewire audio interface with a non-TI chipset Firewire controller. If you have two USB devices sharing the same root-hub, the pair may simply not work together. In that case, put each device on a separate USB root-hub. There's also power-management for each USB root-hub. If the OS decides that you haven't used a particular USB port for a while... (by default) it can disable that port to save energy. This is obviously not what you want on a machine used for DAW purposes. Best Regards, Jim Roseberry www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbuie Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 You guys defending Line 6 and blaming other stuff is admirable and in spite of last night's frustrations, I'm still a huge Line 6 fan (I still love my Vetta II head, so we go back a ways). You missed one clearly defining point though. When this finally worked, it was with the EXACT same variables, that did not work previously. Clearly not the OS, or the USB port. I'd also add, that my post wasn't completely negative. I stated that aside from this issue, the unit seems terrific and I don't think there's much a reluctance to move to new formats (not sure where that came from but this unit is consistently on back order). The idea that it's okay for companies to release stuff in an unstable manner and full of glitches, is becoming an alarming trend though. There used to be a good QA and Beta (using your customers as Beta testers, as is common these days, doesn't count), processes. Line 6 is a great company with a great name. They should strive to continue that by putting a little extra effort into critical aspects of new products. While I agree that there's no way to anticipate every possible system and the variables, this problem is way too frequent to point the finger, solely in that direction. I'd also add that it was other people's "negative" (or is it matter of fact?), posts that lead me to continue trying this and eventually the resolution to the problem I was having... so... Should a Line 6 employee be reading this and the information is useful, my system is running Windows 7 Pro, 64 Bit, Core i5, 8 GB DDR3, Gigabyte Motherboard and the only other USB peripherals connected were MS KB and Razor mouse. That said, I still want to stress that the same exact variables that failed with the update process, repeatedly are the same exact variables that finally worked. The only variables that mattered there were me being stubborn, not wanting to have the hassle of sending it back and not having anything to lose by trying again at that moment. ;) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Should a Line 6 employee be reading this and the information is useful, my system is running Windows 7 Pro, 64 Bit, Core i5, 8 GB DDR3, Gigabyte Motherboard and the only other USB peripherals connected were MS KB and Razor mouse. That said, I still want to stress that the same exact variables that failed with the update process, repeatedly are the same exact variables that finally worked. The only variables that mattered there were me being stubborn, not wanting to have the hassle of sending it back and not having anything to lose by trying again at that moment. ;) Firmware updates seem to be L6's Achilles heel...many JTV users, myself included, are familiar with this. Updates fail way more often than they should. I've never owned anything else that had such difficulty downloading and installing firmware. Who knows why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroseberry Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 You guys defending Line 6 and blaming other stuff is admirable and in spite of last night's frustrations, I'm not defending L6 or blaming anything... As someone who's built/supported literally thousands of DAWs over the past 20+ years, it's relevant and important information. ;) When connecting the Helix (or any other audio/MIDI device) to a 3rd-party USB3 controller, there's a high probability of issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbuie Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 No offense Jroseberry but...you weren't the only person in the post. Your post also would seem to assume quite a bit (although I'm guessing you meant it as general information (?) which in a situation like this isn't necessarily helpful). So, it could seem like you're defending Line 6 and definitely blaming other things (OS, "3rd party USB" and shared resources). In this specific instance, none of the conditions you noted as probable cause, existed. In this specific case, it is in fact an Intel USB controller (6 Series / C200 Chipset to be specific). Obviously the hub hadn't been powered down as it recognized the unit and installed the drivers with no issue and this was not done on my DAW. I don't use my DAW for anything except recording and I sure as heck don't connect it to the internet and download every utility I need. This also isn't, by any means, an isolated incident, so it's important to look at the possibility that there's simply something wrong with the communication in some Helix units. Or, as Cruisinon indicates, the Line 6 firmware update in general. Having supported so many units, I'm sure you understand that solutions need more than a cookie cutter "it's your 3rd party USB Hub" approach. I'm all about solutions and think Line 6 is a fantastic company but regardless of the cause of these multiple issues, they need to iron out some kinks. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 there's plenty of 3rd party drivers for usb/chipsets etc that can also be flaky.... its also important to acknowledge that all usb3 ports arent as backwards compatible as they should be with usb2 devices anyway.... i've even heard of cases where a usb2 hub off of a usb3 port can actually help address these backwards compatibility issues. perhaps the whole point behind the update is to address some flakiness in the L6 unit itself... (?) regardless... the many possible variables in machines can cause a different experience... i don't think that your experience is that crazy... (its technology afterall...) frustrating yes... worrying given the price and anxiousness of playing the new toy... for certain.... but in the end it worked... a giant leap forward from factory install.... onwards and upwards.... i've got 2 macs with the same OS (el crapitan) and the update experience varies GREATLY between them.... and macs are known as being worlds more uniform than any PC platform... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 JTV's are wildly different than Helix and pods... just stating the obvious... Firmware updates seem to be L6's Achilles heel...many JTV users, myself included, are familiar with this. Updates fail way more often than they should. I've never owned anything else that had such difficulty downloading and installing firmware. Who knows why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 JTV's are wildly different than Helix and pods... just stating the obvious... That's nice, but irrelevant. And it doesn't negate anything I said. Apples and eggplants are "wildly different" too...you could be deaf and blind and still easily tell the difference, but they're both fruits. JTVs, Helix, and PODS are all modelers, they all have updatable firmware, and they all suffer from difficulties installing said firmware. This too, is obvious. It's not a condemnation, it doesn't mean I don't like the products, and I don't necessarily think that it's anyone's "fault". It's simply a statement of fact based on my own personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 its entirely relevant for technical reasons... you can think it however you want... but the type of firmware and technology are completely different.... it's more like comparing a thumbtack to a pork tenderloin. just saying from a firmware perspective the problems of one is in no way similar to the problem of the other... if you discount all the technology than maybe the results seem similar... but discounting the technology in a conversation about the technology seems a bit daft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 its entirely relevant for technical reasons... you can think it however you want... but the type of firmware and technology are completely different.... it's more like comparing a thumbtack to a pork tenderloin. just saying from a firmware perspective the problems of one is in no way similar to the problem of the other... if you discount all the technology than maybe the results seem similar... but discounting the technology in a conversation about the technology seems a bit daft. Fine, I'm daft. You win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Can't two people respectfully exchange different opinions without it turning into a competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 The fact is, the early firmware updates for Helix seem to have caused a certain segment of the population grief. I have only done one update on the Rack, and it did, in fact (as they promised it would) not work the first time, but needed to be run a second time to be "done". Kind of like Windows updates that you have to run multiple times to get everything done. But on another forum somewhere I learned that it's not just if your Helix is connected to a hub that you can have problems, it's if ANY hub is connected to your computer it can be a problem, even if Helix isn't connected to the hub. That's every PC with ports on the front that are essentially a hub. And don't get me started on the Yosemite/El Capitan fiascoes on Mac. Apple has screwed the pooch on anything that connects via USB or firewire in their latest updates. I won't update past Mavericks for the foreseeable future because of it. Of course, I have no complaints. Actually my update went pretty smoothly for the Helix, thanks to my unwillingness to update my Mac's OS right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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