[Advice] Yet Another FRFR Thread

[artkingjw]

Hello,

 

With the Helix showing quite a bit of promise, I'm in the process of planning a transition for my rig, into a fully Helix based setup - basically, Guitar > Helix > FRFR + FOH. I'm doing some reading on FRFR stuff, and its kind of daunting at the moment, just need some advice to send me on my way.

 

My current rig:

Guitar > Pedals AND/OR HD500 > Peavey Classic 30

But for experimenting at home, for fun:

Guitar > HD500 > Headphones/Cheap Speakers.. .

 

1) My first question is: What Wattage should I look for in FRFR speaker systems? I presume these are solid state amplifiers, so I cannot use the tube equivalent Wattages correct? My 30 Watt Classic 30 is hella loud, but I can still turn it down for home use and practice. FRFR amps I'm seeing have wattages in the 300-800 range? I'm looking for an FRFR system that can provide a similar or slightly softer range of volume as my Classic 30 as I can crank the amp in a live situation to be heard over the drummer, but only for having some stage volume, with the idea of using FOH to do the rest of the job.

 

2) Second question: Is it possible for the Helix to have this signal route?

Guitar > Amp > Cab -> Mic -> FOH

                            |

                             -> FRFR Speaker

So my stage sound would be similar to what a 'cab' would sound like on stage, while the FOH sound is equivalent to a mic'd up amp? Not crucial, just curious.

 

3) Third question: My budget is (at the moment, still balancing the sheets) not more than ~$400 USD (I am in Australia, so that is probably more like $650 AUD). What options should I be looking at? If given a choice I would value quality of sound over loudness, since loudness can still be compensated for in most situations (?). If the build quality is good, I am definitely open to buying used.

 

So far I've seen things like: Atomic CLR, Line 6 L2T, Cerwin-Vega P1000x. AccuGrove Espresso etc. I value sound quality > loudness, I don't need lots of features, I just need something to make my sound loud, without changing it.

 

Thanks guys!

TL;DR, whats a cheap, good, not too loud, quality built FRFR.

[DarrellM5]

Hello,

 

With the Helix showing quite a bit of promise, I'm in the process of planning a transition for my rig, into a fully Helix based setup - basically, Guitar > Helix > FRFR + FOH. I'm doing some reading on FRFR stuff, and its kind of daunting at the moment, just need some advice to send me on my way.

 

My current rig:

Guitar > Pedals AND/OR HD500 > Peavey Classic 30

But for experimenting at home, for fun:

Guitar > HD500 > Headphones/Cheap Speakers.. .

 

1) My first question is: What Wattage should I look for in FRFR speaker systems? I presume these are solid state amplifiers, so I cannot use the tube equivalent Wattages correct? My 30 Watt Classic 30 is hella loud, but I can still turn it down for home use and practice. FRFR amps I'm seeing have wattages in the 300-800 range? I'm looking for an FRFR system that can provide a similar or slightly softer range of volume as my Classic 30 as I can crank the amp in a live situation to be heard over the drummer, but only for having some stage volume, with the idea of using FOH to do the rest of the job.

 

2) Second question: Is it possible for the Helix to have this signal route?

Guitar > Amp > Cab -> Mic -> FOH

                            |

                             -> FRFR Speaker

So my stage sound would be similar to what a 'cab' would sound like on stage, while the FOH sound is equivalent to a mic'd up amp? Not crucial, just curious.

 

3) Third question: My budget is (at the moment, still balancing the sheets) not more than ~$400 USD (I am in Australia, so that is probably more like $650 AUD). What options should I be looking at? If given a choice I would value quality of sound over loudness, since loudness can still be compensated for in most situations (?). If the build quality is good, I am definitely open to buying used.

 

So far I've seen things like: Atomic CLR, Line 6 L2T, Cerwin-Vega P1000x. AccuGrove Espresso etc. I value sound quality > loudness, I don't need lots of features, I just need something to make my sound loud, without changing it.

 

Thanks guys!

TL;DR, whats a cheap, good, not too loud, quality built FRFR.

I'll give this a shot:

 

1)  I'm assuming you're looking for the FRFR to be you on-stage monitor since you're sending a separate signal to FOH.  In that case I'd recommend the Alto TS110A which goes for about $200 USD.  I'm not sure about all of them but some of the options you listed are far beyond your stated budget.  The TS110A is 600 watts.

 

2)  That signal path is easily achievable with Helix.

 

3)  Again, I'd recommend the TS110A.

[jshimkoski]

Check out Mission Engineering Gemini 1 and Gemini 2.

 

Gemini 2 is a stereo cab, Gemini 1 mono (but you can connect two together to get stereo). They also have bluetooth connectivity and an audio interface built-in.

 

Both are plenty loud for gigs. Super clean as well.

[mdmayfield]

 

2) Second question: Is it possible for the Helix to have this signal route?

Guitar > Amp > Cab -> Mic -> FOH

                            |

                             -> FRFR Speaker

So my stage sound would be similar to what a 'cab' would sound like on stage, while the FOH sound is equivalent to a mic'd up amp? Not crucial, just curious.

 

One quick clarification on this... You can't turn off the mic simulation only. The cab simulation includes the mic. It's essentially an IR, that is, an actual recording of a mic'd cab - kind of like an audio photograph of the sound of a specific cab through a specific mic in a specific position in a specific room.

 

The only way you could create a cab simulation without a mic simulation would be to make a recording of the cabinet without using a microphone, which is not possible - it's like trying to take a photograph without using a camera.

[PeterHamm]

You wouldn't want to turn off the mike simulation.

 

On an FRFR, for best results, you want to hear the same signal that's going to the house. Many have a "thru" so that you can do this easily".

[artkingjw]

I'll give this a shot:

 

1)  I'm assuming you're looking for the FRFR to be you on-stage monitor since you're sending a separate signal to FOH.  In that case I'd recommend the Alto TS110A which goes for about $200 USD.  I'm not sure about all of them but some of the options you listed are far beyond your stated budget.  The TS110A is 600 watts.

 

2)  That signal path is easily achievable with Helix.

 

3)  Again, I'd recommend the TS110A.

Yes, essentially the FRFR is a stage monitor so we can all hear each other, what others should hear is the FOH signal.

 

Yea I've seen the TS110A mentioned around here as well, will look at that then.

 

Thanks man

[artkingjw]

One quick clarification on this... You can't turn off the mic simulation only. The cab simulation includes the mic. It's essentially an IR, that is, an actual recording of a mic'd cab - kind of like an audio photograph of the sound of a specific cab through a specific mic in a specific position in a specific room.

 

The only way you could create a cab simulation without a mic simulation would be to make a recording of the cabinet without using a microphone, which is not possible - it's like trying to take a photograph without using a camera.

gotcha, thank you for that clarification.

[artkingjw]

You wouldn't want to turn off the mike simulation.

 

On an FRFR, for best results, you want to hear the same signal that's going to the house. Many have a "thru" so that you can do this easily".

Yea I can understand why you would want to do that. But my idea was to feel more like I was playing an amp, so what is on stage is an 'amp' sound, and FOH receives a 'mic'd' sound. Making life harder? Yea I know haha. I was just curious.

[ColonelForbin]

One quick clarification on this... You can't turn off the mic simulation only. The cab simulation includes the mic. It's essentially an IR, that is, an actual recording of a mic'd cab - kind of like an audio photograph of the sound of a specific cab through a specific mic in a specific position in a specific room.

 

The only way you could create a cab simulation without a mic simulation would be to make a recording of the cabinet without using a microphone, which is not possible - it's like trying to take a photograph without using a camera.

 

HD500 does this cab with no mic (with output mode) but Helix does not.. I suppose DT amps do it as well - they apply 'cabinet' to the actual speaker, but then do a separate mic model for the XLR output. 

[artkingjw]

HD500 does this cab with no mic (with output mode) but Helix does not.. I suppose DT amps do it as well - they apply 'cabinet' to the actual speaker, but then do a separate mic model for the XLR output. 

I think that's what made me wonder if this was possible, curious how they can 'cancel' out the effect of the mic?

[bmdenton23]

I have the L2T, TS110a, TS112a, and TS115a speakers. My personal preference is the TS112a which is an 800 watt speaker. The L2T is great too but does sound different than the Alto series. 

[artkingjw]

Question: How important/useful/significant are the extra features you get with more premium options?

 

Example: the Atomic CLR series touts the benefits of having "Coincident Linear Reference" on their website, which I have to assume does *something* for you yea? I read their explanation of it, and I think i understand most of it, basically you have a predictable sound profile around the speaker, as opposed to having the highs be more directional than the lows?

 

Other products will say that they are 'designed for' or 'made for' Modellers (such as the Helix). What do they mean by that? Doesn't that imply that they are not truly FRFR, but meant to accentuate the 'guitar' frequencies more? Accugrove has this sort of product range split, with guitar, modeller and bass and keyboard options. They claim that PA solutions have a different focus, for a different midrange focused on cutting through a crowd and emphasizing the vocals more - again implying that the system is not FRFR again?

[ColonelForbin]

I think that's what made me wonder if this was possible, curious how they can 'cancel' out the effect of the mic?

 

Here's how I always thought of it; the 'no mic cab' that is sent to the DT (or used onboard) is basically an EQ filter of some sort, more of a voicing than an actual IR. And it does alter the sound! So, in essence if you used, say a Bogner 4x12 amp+cab, into a DT25 combo. The 4x12 voicing alters the tone coming through the physical speaker. But, if you load up DtEdit, you will notice there is a global mic setting that only impacts the DT XLR output, which is by default, SM57 off axis. You can make it whatever you want, and that setting has nothing to do with anything you can set on the HD500, or control with L6Link. you can control it with MIDI, hence many of the recent Helix-DT workarounds..

 

Basically, the DT XLR out "cabinet emulation" is specific to the sound of the 1x12 combo that is the DT25, rather than the cab model used prior to that last mic model thing.

 

I haven't tried this yet, but I want to experiment with sending Helix preamp model to DT25, disable all the DT cab and mic models, etc, then send the XLR back to Helix and run it through an IR and/or Helix cab only (is that an option?) and then run that to FRFR / recording, see what happens. The primary benefit to doing this is processing Helix amp model through DT Bogner actual power amp topology, and figure out if that impacts the signal in a positive way.