Help with adding the basic built-in effects to their models.

[mileskb]

I hope the answer to this helps others as well.  In other words, I hope I'm not the only idiot that can't figure it out.

 

Lets say I want to create a classic (insert classic combo amp here) sound.  In this case for something to use as an example we'll say it is a 2 x 12 combo amp with reverb.

 

Interestingly I have a Full Range 2 x 12 cabinet (driven by a 100 watt full range solid state amp), and while the speakers are angled a bit and it's ported, I should be able to come pretty close.

 

So I select a 2 x 12 cab model with my favorite speakers and I select my amp.  So far so good.

 

Now to add that Reverb sound it's known for.  

1. I could put it after the amp model, but that's not really where it is, it's built into the combo between the preamp and poweramp. 
2. If I just grab the "preAMP" model of this amp... well, it's missing all the presence and tube adjustments so that's not right. 
3. I could put the reverb up front like a pedal, but that's not the right sound either.

I already put an ideascape entry for effects loops into the amp models but I'd guess that is probably a ways off... how do I do it.?

 

In fact, it seems a bit odd to me that if you are going to have an amp model, or amp+cab model, and the modeled AMP has a reverb built in (It's actually even in the name of the amp), and you HAVE that reverb (60's Spring) already in the bag of tools, it would seem it would already be part of the model.

 

Another example is the famous Jazzy 120 watt amp with Chorus.   Why even bother doing the model if you can't get the sound of the built-in chorus and reverb that this amp is known for?  FWIW, I have played through a JC120 for many years.  The amp+cab model is spot on.  But adding the chorus...  isn't straight forward.  Well if you want it where it belongs and sounds best that is.

 

There are a ton more examples but you get the idea by now.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[PeterHamm]

2 x 12 guitar cabinet? or is that a FRFR of some kind with tweeter or something?

[mileskb]

2 x 12 guitar cabinet? or is that a FRFR of some kind with tweeter or something?

 

It's a 2 x 12 full range cabinet.  It's a Custom cabinet I had built by Genz Benz before the term FRFR was a thing.  They eventually turned it into a model they sold as a guitar cab but this one is loaded with EV 20" (I think Force Pro) PA speakers. As I used it for guitar and keys and such for many years I purposely don't have tweeters in it, so I guess technically it's not really as full range as it could be.  But it has surprisingly good high-end for 12" speakers.  I've used it for DJ'ing and no one noticed :)      The model they decided to release based on my design was this http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid=1409&sid=631&cid=118#   but they changed the speakers to more guitar voiced.   I used Rockman modules for many years and rather than lug around two huge cabinets (I think Tom Scholz used cabs with a 15" a large mid and a tweeter) I went this route.  

 

I eventually will be getting K12's I think although I keep looking at the Atomic CLR's, but this cab with a decent amp in front if it is nice in the studio or rehearsal space or if I go live and the situation calls for a more traditional backline setup... I can use this setup for me and I'll just send what I want to FOH.

 

This is a bit off topic I guess, but you asked.    Like I said, I noticed some of the amp+cab combos I have dialed up are pretty spot on to the originals with this setup.  The "character" of combo amps like the JC120 or Fender twin or deluxe really are good.   I'm just missing the "effects" placement issue.

[fukuri]

I kind of get where you are coming from

It's the lack of separation between pre amp and power amp where you would normally insert stuff

But with the Helix effectively you can put effects after the amp model and it does more or less the same thing

Or you can put choruses and delays on a parallel signal path which sounds great and very clean

With all the routing options having an effect loop in the amp models would just confuse an already challenging system

[silverhead]

So, taking the JC120 as the example, it doesn't sound similar if you use the amp block, followed by a chorus block, and finally the cab block? I'm not sure Helix has modelled the chorus from the JC120, but I think that should be the only significant difference.

 

Same for the Fender. It doesn't sound right lining up the amp, spring reverb, and cab?

[mileskb]

But with the Helix effectively you can put effects after the amp model and it does more or less the same thing

You can get really good tone, but it's not the same.  Especially in some where the effect (like reverb) changes a bit depending on the drive.  And lets face it, the idea of the models acting like their "real world" counterparts with regard to drive is where the Helix shines.

 

 

 

So, taking the JC120 as the example, it doesn't sound similar if you use the amp block, followed by a chorus block, and finally the cab block? 

Same for the Fender. It doesn't sound right lining up the amp, spring reverb, and cab?

 

"Similar"... ok I'll give you that.  but I think it could be closer.   On the actual amps the effects are between the pre-amp and the amp or between the gain stage and output stage of the pre-amp.   While doing the amp + effect + cab gets you a good sound, it actually moves it away from what the real world version actually sounds like.   

 

Running the effect parallel with the amp would probably get the closest I guess, but in some cases, the gain stage of the amp adds the signature "character" to the effect so that would be lost.  

 

I guess it's not THAT big a deal as they all sound good, but as I was just auditioning amps today, I noticed that I couldn't really just audition something like the two I've used as examples, because while the "basic" amp-cab selection sounds just like (to my ears) the real  amp without the effects, adding the appropriate effect was actually taking a step backwards until it's really tweaked/dialed in.

 

I personally do NOT feel adding an insert point into a AMP would be complicated from a user standpoint at all.  It would be closer to real world if anything and the possibilities... wow.

 

If you ever get to use a VOX Valvetronix series you'll know what I mean.  It has "stomp boxes" and "effects."  The stomps are insterted pre-gain, and the effects are inserted in between the gain stages so not only can you emulate classic amps with their original effects in the right place in the chain, you can use other effects instead.   Obviously no comparison to what the Helix can do overall, but in the sense of replicating the signal chain, they kinda nailed it.   

[mileskb]

Ok so I just tried doing the add the reverb to path B.   This was interesting and brought up all sorts of issues.  Now it sounded fine, but we're going for sounding like the original amp, which... without any effect... the amp and cab model is damn close if not spot on.

 

So I split out to a spring reverb and came back in after the amp before the cab.

 

I found the best setting was to set the reverb mix 100% and control the amount of reverb I was hearing with the Level B control when it comes back to Path A.

 

That was fine until I added some more gain...  and of course the amp block got louder and buried the reverb.  Also, in the case of an actual Fender twin, adding gain actually effects the sound of the reverb.  The Reverb is actually between the pre-amp and the gain stage so I'm not getting that..  I also noticed looking at the block diagram of a Fender twin that the Tremolo is actually between the Gain stage and the Power Amp !!!   I don't use tremolo that much so I never thought about it, but that would be much less straight forward than you would think to get to... when you already just selected the US Double Nrm and thought... WOW... just add a little 'verb and 'trem and I'm good to go...  not so fast sparky...

 

I can't believe I'm the first to notice this.

[robbieb61]

It would be awesome if the preamp and amp were separate blocks.
​Because then it would sound like a real amp with a effects loop.

​BUT...having said that...in the 1980's we were all trying to get that "Bradshaw Rig" sound.
​And that was accomplished by running a tube head into a 4x12 cab at LOUD volume offstage and pointed at a wall or something where it wouldn't bleed out onstage or in the crowd.

Then mic'ing that cab and sending the signal to a wet/dry setup with a tube power amp. I used to use the Mesa SimulClass 295 for that purpose.
​One side would get the signal from the original amp and cab run through effects totally wet, the other side got the dry sound coming out of that original amp and cab.

 

​Then that would output from the stereo tube amp to 2 more 4x12 cabs. One dry, one wet. And then THOSE 2 cabs were mic'ed up for the front of house.

​And it sounded SWEET!!!

​So The Helix is actually doing the best thing in it's set up by NOT putting effects between the preamp and power amp models.

 

​At least that's the way that the players with the best sounds in the world used to do it.

[mileskb]

​So The Helix is actually doing the best thing in it's set up by NOT putting effects between the preamp and power amp models.

 

As long as you are not trying to emulate the sound of an amp that HAS the effects in the gain stages somewhere.   Don't get me wrong, I'm not diss'n the Helix.  I was in the 80's too, but I was going the Rockman route, so my sound was out the back of my effects which had speaker sims in them.  If I needed amps on stage, I used clean amps, and they were either mic'd or I sent the main signal to FOH.  Later I got the above cabinet essentially for me on stage, and they could mic it, or take my line signal...  I didn't really matter.  

 

I only ran across this threads scenario today when I was noodling on a strat style guitar and thought I would check out some classic amp sounds...  that's when I hit this wall.

 

Helix has by far some of the best sounds I've heard, but it seems a bit silly that probably the best "emulations" of real amps are likely accomplished by staying as far away from their model as possible and just put the pieces together with what sounds best.  

 

I guess a better title to the thread to ask why they bothered calling a lot of these "amp models" cause if you pull up a something that's supposed to have a Reverb, or something that's supposed to have a Tremolo and it doesn't...   what's the point?  

 

I also noticed some of the effects have different controls than the "real" version.  The 70's Chorus is an example of that.  Mind you, it's a freaking great chorus, and it may have been created with the CE-1 in mind....  but it has in some aspects MORE options than the CE-1 and in some aspects LESS.

 

Maybe that's the point.  Maybe they couldn't really nail all the features and sounds without getting into trouble.  

 

Still lov'n all the things it can do.   

[Joepeggio]

This is something that has been brought up. There was and still is talk about having a seperate amp block along with the current pre and cab options. With the past bugs line 6 was dealing with and the strong desire to get a desktop editor out, some of the line 6 folks mentioned how those were priorities. This idea may come, but i agree they need to address the current apple OS issues, the editor, and some bugs first.

 

But good to keep it alive!!! Here is an ideascale for it. Vote it up!

 

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/HELIX-Allow-the-power-amp-to-be-used-as-a-separate-block/727260-23508

[Joepeggio]

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Independent-pre-and-power-amp-blocks/748793-23508

 

this one too

[mileskb]

Hmm, and this one too.  I actually put this one in a couple of months ago, but didn't realize how important or significant it really was until today.

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Insert-Points-for-Amp-and-Pre-Amp-models-that-have-effects-loops/799585-23508

[fukuri]

For my part I've never noticed it because that's not how I use the helix

I design a sound that I want to use and the names of the emulated amp blocks and pedals just make things simpler as I've got a fair bit of experience of the kit they were modelled on.

So if I'm looking for a class A Vox kind of tone then I start there and begin modifying. If I want a fender twin with some drive into it ...etc

I've never tried actually modelling my amps before.

[mileskb]

Ok, I just stumbled onto something by accident.  I haven't tried it at full volume through speakers cause others are sleeping but in headsets and low volume it works.

 

I just put the Reverb after the Double NRM AMP-CAB block.  And it worked... sounded pretty damn awesome actually.  When I brought up the drive, the reverb obviously reacted as expected and I didn't need to change anything else.   I then switched the amp-cap to the JC120 type model, and changed the next block to Chorus.  That was pretty close too.   I even tried other amp-cab models some of which may or may not have reverb normally and it was fine.  What was/is really cool, was at least for the two Spring reverbs, if I muted them, the volume didn't drop.    I even started to get fancy and put a distortion block in front of the amp-cab block and that was fine.  It drove the amp and it just sounded like any amp would that had built in reverb with a stomp box up front.  

 

To be clear... the ONLY things in my path (for this experiment) are  AMP-CAP block  > Effect Block.   Normal wisdom would say that's not gonna work...  I certainly wouldn't plug the output of my amp into my chorus unit... but there ya go.

 

Now I'm trying to figure out "why" this works...  

 

I guess I need to go back and re-read my post where I mention to let my EARS do the work.  Just change stuff until you get the sound you want.   

 

Talk about thinking outside the box...

[robbieb61]

It's working because that is exactly what the chain would be if you were in a studio (or live gig) and you were NOT using any effects at the amp (the soundman is adding them afterwards).

​I know it's not the way the Jazz/Chorus Amp works as a standalone amp. 

​But it's actually the best way to run effects...post cab and mic.   :)

 

​That way all the guitar tone is already there. Now you're just sprinkling in the effects on top.

[mileskb]

It's working because that is exactly what the chain would be if you were in a studio (or live gig) and you were NOT using any effects at the amp (the soundman is adding them afterwards).

 

​I know it's not the way the Jazz/Chorus Amp works as a standalone amp. 

​But it's actually the best way to run effects...post cab and mic.   :)

 

​That way all the guitar tone is already there. Now you're just sprinkling in the effects on top.

 

I really should have picked up on that... I've only been recording (admittedly on and off) professionally for 40+ years...  When I'm playing, my brain is in "musician" mode.. but you are right... as soon as I read the word "studio" above I put my "engineer" hat on... and it all just locked in like an epiphany.  Thanks for that...  feeling kinda dumb at the moment...  but thanks anyway.

 

For those watching...  they key is...  It's not JUST an "amp-cab" model.   it's an "amp-mic'd cabinet" model.   The real world reference is that in reality there are TWO signal chains once you add the cab to a path.   The "pre" mic path... and the "post" mic path.  WOW...

[fukuri]

I found it useful and I'm sure others will as well. I had never thought of it the way that you had in terms of accurately modelling an amp and it's fx. It has been an interesting thread