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What am I doing wrong?


rayneman
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Hi,

 

First - I just got the Firehawk and am planning on running it through a Friedman ASM-12, which will arrive tomorrow.  The idea is that my band plays in places where the volume needs to be managed pretty well, especially stage volume. We aren't a metal band, more 80s pop/rock.  I am planning on using this setup in place of larger tube amps that I love, but ultimately don't really place nice with our music and are more suited for hard rock and metal.

 

So - at our rehearsal place, I simply use an RP1000 into a Tech 21 Power Engine 60.  That little rig does what I need it to do, I figure the Firehawk is a step up, and if this whole thing goes well I might end up with a Helix or another high end modeler.  Anyway...I took the Firehawk tonight to rehearsl to see how it does with the band.  I had made a few clean and dirty presets with various FX and such.  I have the amps in the presets all turned up really high.  As such I was really surprised I could barely hear myself when I got everything plugged in.  I ended up having to take the Power Engine's output to 3/4 and the Firehawk's output (the RED dots around the wheel) to at least half before I started to get somewhere.  This, for mild practice volume, and I ended up turing the Firehawk up even louder.  I am not sure I could use this onstage if I had to (mic'd cab of course) without opening the PE and Firehawk  wide open.  I can't imagine that sounding good.

 

I am using the output mode of "amp" not "line."  I think that is correct but I am not 100%.

 

So after all this, sorry, my questions are:

 

1. Is it normal to have to turn the Firehawk's output really high in order to really get decent volume through whatever device is amplifying it, or am I missing some adjustment that is made in the settings?  My RP1000 never had this issue, and it seemed to work well with this Power Engine having its output at very reasonable levels.

 

2. With this Friedman device, I will need to use the XLR output as the Friedman is only XLR in.  Will this change anything?  

 

The Firehawk manual touches on the output...the 1/4 vs, XLR but I am not confident that I completely understand.  

 

We have a gig Saturday and I would love to get this sorted out!!!

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help.  I searched but didn't really find anything that matched my situation, especially with the Friedman ASM-12.

 

 

 

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Not sure about your friedman questions as I've never used one

Regarding the firehawk output I regularly run mine at 95% full and it sounds the same , no clipping or anything but I guess that could depend on how loud your patches have been made to begin with

You should definitely set your output mode to LINE , that will improve things quite a bit

The output mode AMP is for going into the front of a guitar amp

Both the friedman and the tech 21 act as power amps

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Thanks to you both for your replies.  I had been using the Firehawk here at home with it plugged into the "power amp in" of a little 40 watt Fender HRD tube combo.  When I did try "line" instead of "amp" the volume increased significantly, and really, the tone degraded IMO.  I imagine that's because I was running amp and cab models into a guitar amp and that even though preamp section was bypassed it still colored the tone.

 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Friedman arriving today, hopefully this becomes a great solution for the stage.  We all get our own decent monitor mixes, but I don't think I could stand only have THAT to hear myself...that would be taking stage volume to far down IMO.  

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....  When I did try "line" instead of "amp" the volume increased significantly, and really, the tone degraded IMO.  I imagine that's because I was running amp and cab models into a guitar amp and that even though preamp section was bypassed it still colored the tone.

 

.....

 

That's correct. It will sound much better going directly to your Friedman.

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The ASM-12 showed up...basically a stage wedge dressed up to look like a Friedman BE100.  

 

The initial verdict is that I have to re-think the EQ on the user tones that I have created. Quite a difference playing the Firehawk through this Friedman device than through anything else I've used with it.  I do think the volume issue is gone, the Friedman has a lot of juice, lol.  Its a pretty neat way to hear your modeling device.

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Yeah the louder you go the more different your eq settings will be

I have 2 versions of all my patches , I have one labelled with a (H) So I know it was created on and intended for headphones.

Then I'll take that patch amplify it and re tweak it and label it (Lt) So I know its for my lt3 speaker

 

Sounds like a pain but I've asked around and there is no way around it , you simply have to finalise your patches at the volume your going to be playing live, usually cutting the high and low frequencies is a good place to start

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So will you be usung ASM-12 in place of an amp set up. In looking through reviews about Friedman it seemed people were only using it as a stage monitor but went through a house PA system for the audience. Is that your plan as well. I also have a Fender HRD combo and will try the one cable method into the Fender's power amp. But I am not connecting to a PA. Just the back line, but I'm curious about using a system like yours in place of an amp. Thx!

Jim

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Yes, in place of a traditional amp. My intention is to place this ASM on the floor next to my "regular" monitor or maybe even beside me. The Friedman will then be mic'd. I guess I'm sort of using it as a quasi-backline device but in the spirit of clamping down on stage volume I am trying to take advantage of its wedge shape so I can get MY tone separate and not blast away the stage. Other guys will have guitar through their monitors and whatever washes over the stage from the Friedman.

 

For all I know this could be a complete failure. We will see tonight.

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Message for Rayneman; wondering how your experience has been with the ASM. I was a tad disappointed with the one cable to to my HRD. The FH was great but the amp was lacking juice in this huge outdoor venue in Malibu. Maybe because I did not have the advantage of using the pre amp of the HRD only that lonely 12 inch powered speaker.

Jim

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My initial impression of the Friedman ASM in a live setting was that it really provided a clear sound and I could easily hear myself without blasting out the stage. We mic'd it as well for the house and other monitors. I was going to try and place it in front of me or to the side but I chickened out and used it behind me. Still, set in a wedge position it sounded very good and was very clear. You can see in the pic where I put it.

However I am not sure about the Firehawk. I think it may have to go, not sure. Maybe I wasn't used to it but it's sort of hard to tap top row switches and not change presets. Also I think I hit both the up and down bank buttons at the same time and ended up in some live edit mode. That sucked. While all that is my issue I also wasn't blown away by the tones that I was so clearly hearing. Oddly I was happier with clean tones over dirty. My tones sounded "honky" and also "crispy." I will tweak some more but I'm looking at some other options. If the AX8 were available now I bet I'd just grab that lol.  I think I need to spend more time at higher volume with it as I think there have to be great tones here, because I was able to get them at home with with ASM 12, but that was at "home" volume without other instruments in the mix.

post-1375436-0-97705400-1455585988_thumb.jpeg

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My initial impression of the Friedman ASM in a live setting was that it really provided a clear sound and I could easily hear myself without blasting out the stage. We mic'd it as well for the house and other monitors. I was going to try and place it in front of me or to the side but I chickened out and used it behind me. Still, set in a wedge position it sounded very good and was very clear. You can see in the pic where I put it.

 

However I am not sure about the Firehawk. I think it may have to go, not sure. Maybe I wasn't used to it but it's sort of hard to tap top row switches and not change presets. Also I think I hit both the up and down bank buttons at the same time and ended up in some live edit mode. That sucked. While all that is my issue I also wasn't blown away by the tones that I was so clearly hearing. Oddly I was happier with clean tones over dirty. My tones sounded "honky" and also "crispy." I will tweak some more but I'm looking at some other options. If the AX8 were available now I bet I'd just grab that lol. I think I need to spend more time at higher volume with it as I think there have to be great tones here, because I was able to get them at home with with ASM 12, but that was at "home" volume without other instruments in the mix.

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Thanks for that tip Rayne. I was pretty happy with most FH tones but the HRD lacked juice when used as a powered speaker (1 cable to power amp setting only). If I were to go straight from my guitar to the standard guitar input on the HRD I can get arena volumes quickly. If I stay with the FH I'm going to have to try the ASM-12. You think the volume as an amp substitute are good enough for most live gigs? I'm not mic ing out to a PA or monitor at this point! Thx.

Jim

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My initial impression of the Friedman ASM in a live setting was that it really provided a clear sound and I could easily hear myself without blasting out the stage. We mic'd it as well for the house and other monitors. I was going to try and place it in front of me or to the side but I chickened out and used it behind me. Still, set in a wedge position it sounded very good and was very clear. You can see in the pic where I put it.

 

However I am not sure about the Firehawk. I think it may have to go, not sure. Maybe I wasn't used to it but it's sort of hard to tap top row switches and not change presets. Also I think I hit both the up and down bank buttons at the same time and ended up in some live edit mode. That sucked. While all that is my issue I also wasn't blown away by the tones that I was so clearly hearing. Oddly I was happier with clean tones over dirty. My tones sounded "honky" and also "crispy." I will tweak some more but I'm looking at some other options. If the AX8 were available now I bet I'd just grab that lol. I think I need to spend more time at higher volume with it as I think there have to be great tones here, because I was able to get them at home with with ASM 12, but that was at "home" volume without other instruments in the mix.

An easy fix for hitting the top row of switches is to replace the rubber feet at the back of the unit for bigger ones, quite a few of us here have done this by buying bits off ebay for a few quid

You can get the same tones for live use that you get at low volumes, you just have to program your patches at gigging volume otherwise your just guessing your eq settings and reverb levels in particular

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You can get the same tones for live use that you get at low volumes, you just have to program your patches at gigging volume otherwise your just guessing your eq settings and reverb levels in particular

I tried setting the patches as you suggested at the gig before we played to "Gigging Volume" but I did not like the response I got from the amp (in 1 CM). I plugged into the power amp and I noticed a significant loss of volume and power. I didn't notice this at home because I was practicing at much lower volumes. All the volume settings (Red, Wht and Pink) were set to 9 o'clock at home. I tried first just raising the Red at the gig, but it was not effective so I raised the pink as well. This gave me better volume, but muddied the tone significantly! Once again, I may have to switch to another output option such as the ASM-12 as Rayneman and others seem to think so highly of it. More $$$$! 

Jim

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Are you plugging into the fx return on the amp or the guitar input?

Also, which output setting are you using? Amp or line?

You should select no cab when using the firehawk into a regular guitar amp , it will make it sound less muddy and more direct

I'm plugging into the power amp jack in the back of the amp not the guitar input. I'll check to see if I've selected amp or line can't remember. One setting is mute so I would only be using the setting that responds. I'll try playing with the no cab setting. When I first played with this I did not notice a huge difference except for the patches with giant metal amps with 4x12 cabs! Thank you again!!

Jim

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My initial impression of the Friedman ASM in a live setting was that it really provided a clear sound and I could easily hear myself without blasting out the stage. We mic'd it as well for the house and other monitors. I was going to try and place it in front of me or to the side but I chickened out and used it behind me. Still, set in a wedge position it sounded very good and was very clear. You can see in the pic where I put it.

 

However I am not sure about the Firehawk. I think it may have to go, not sure. Maybe I wasn't used to it but it's sort of hard to tap top row switches and not change presets. Also I think I hit both the up and down bank buttons at the same time and ended up in some live edit mode. That sucked. While all that is my issue I also wasn't blown away by the tones that I was so clearly hearing. Oddly I was happier with clean tones over dirty. My tones sounded "honky" and also "crispy." I will tweak some more but I'm looking at some other options. If the AX8 were available now I bet I'd just grab that lol. I think I need to spend more time at higher volume with it as I think there have to be great tones here, because I was able to get them at home with with ASM 12, but that was at "home" volume without other instruments in the mix.

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I have returned the Friedman. It sounded good with the Firehawk but it's heavy and awkward and I am not sure if I'd simply end up using it as a backline cab. I'll be honest, I bought an Atomic Amplifire and it sounds amazing through my Fender, and there are zero output or volume issues. If I try another FRFR device it will definitely be an Atomic CLR. I know I am sacrificing switching, expression pedal and some deeper editing moving from the Firehawk to the Amplifire, but right out of the box the Atomic device feels RIGHT. I'm sure for some the Firehawk is the better unit.

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If the Amplifire is an amp modeler, how do you use it with your Fender amp? Isn't that like having two pre amps competing with each other or do you plug into the power amp jack in the back of the Fender (as I do) and bypass your preamp? I don't know anything about how the amplifire works.

Jim

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If the Amplifire is an amp modeler, how do you use it with your Fender amp? Isn't that like having two pre amps competing with each other or do you plug into the power amp jack in the back of the Fender (as I do) and bypass your preamp? I don't know anything about how the amplifire works.

Jim

 

I currently have it plugged into the "Power Amp In" jack of this Fender HRD 1X12 combo.  The preamp is bypassed, and the only controls that are active are reverb and presence.  The Amplifire is similar to most other multi-FX units in that it has amp models and various FX you can add...you build presets and so forth.  It has a really nice application so when you connect to your computer via USB, its simple to build tones and tweak the parameters.  

 

The Amplifire is limited in its switching capabilities by itself, but I have a little MIDI pedal (with bank up/down and 4 patch buttons) that along with the three buttons on the Amplifire device (which I have set to turn on/off boost, Mod FX and delay FX) make it pretty usable.  The available FX are fairly straightforward and aren't very deep, but for me its all I need.  I admit that some of these units get WAY too complicated for me.  This thing is even easier than the Firehawk.

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