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About the ethicality of modellers.


Paolo_Maina
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Have you seen these videos?

 

Kemper Profiling Amp - is it ethical? Food for Thought ! (Part 1/3)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkf4kXVkZek&feature=youtu.be

 

Responsible Kemper Profiling... a few more thoughts on the subject. (Part 2/3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ymUQFkI_rY

 

Amplifier Profiling - Possible Solutions (Part 3/3)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwO2uORE64U

 

What do you think about?

 

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Watched them. He sort of defended line 6.

 

I see it as Line 6 went in and modeled the components of the amps, in a sense, no different then Joyo, Bulgera, Behringer, etc.

 

Kemper takes the actual tone generated from the amp and copies it. The crappy part I see is people buying the amps, profiling them, then returning the amp.

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What do you think about?

I think the world has much bigger things to worry about. So we're gonna try and copyright a thoroughly amorphous and subjective concept like "tone" now? Who's going to author the legal definition of "sounds like a Marshall"? As it is, you can't get 2 guitar players to agree on the color of $&!*. Shall we allow headphone companies to sue each other because two pairs of cans have a similar frequency response? Or let Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore battle it out in court over who invented "blue"? Please...

 

Besides, the world will never be rid of purists and tone snobs who will insist to the bitter end that everything digital sucks. The "real" amps aren't going anywhere. If they did, what would there be to model/profile?

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Whether it's ethical or not is a personal decision. But some people are always going engage in questionable behavior. I don't see this - people buying an amp and returning it - as necessarily a bad thing. It's part of the process for the advancement of guitar amplification technology. When looked at this way, is it so bad for the phasing out of a technology that's quickly becoming obsolete - actual amps - for something that's more reliable, versatile and flexible?

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Watched them. He sort of defended line 6.

 

I see it as Line 6 went in and modeled the components of the amps, in a sense, no different then Joyo, Bulgera, Behringer, etc.

 

Kemper takes the actual tone generated from the amp and copies it. The crappy part I see is people buying the amps, profiling them, then returning the amp.

 

The big difference between what Line 6 does and what Joyo, etc do is that Line 6 has always been upfront about what amps and effects its modeling. Joyo and Behringer have essentially taken existing designs, copied them, and stamped their branding on them. What they do isn't much different than someone selling a cheap Rolex on the street. At least they put their name on it, though. Line 6 also has plenty of original IP under their belt.

 

I will say that it does seem that Behringer ha gotten away from that part of the business. Since making recent acquisitions, they seem to be focusing their resources a lot more on live sound than on guitar stuff right now, and their live sound stuff is definitely more original.

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The big difference between what Line 6 does and what Joyo, etc do is that Line 6 has always been upfront about what amps and effects its modeling. Joyo and Behringer have essentially taken existing designs, copied them, and stamped their branding on them. What they do isn't much different than someone selling a cheap Rolex on the street. At least they put their name on it, though. Line 6 also has plenty of original IP under their belt.

 

I will say that it does seem that Behringer ha gotten away from that part of the business. Since making recent acquisitions, they seem to be focusing their resources a lot more on live sound than on guitar stuff right now, and their live sound stuff is definitely more original.

When friends of mine ask me why i haven't bought Kemper instead of Helix I answer.

Because i'm not a professional who needs carry on tour his studio sound, I want only something that sound good.

I haven't many expensive amps to clone.

In addition i like design of Helix and when i saw demo video about the GUI simple and intuitive.

I tought i want it.

I used for work german PLC software and japanese sotfware and always, german GUI it's more intricated complex, japanese is simple and effective.

Also german language is complicated and this reflex in the way they think.

Kemper always seemed to me complicated and I have nothing to profile.

 

This is an example of what i mean.

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10095976/Germany-drops-its-longest-word-Rindfleischeti....html

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Remember the show Cheers where Norm would always go to the Hungry Heffer? Its not beef its beff. Joyo -> Heilips. :P

 

Makes one wonder if in the distant future the amp mfgs could patent their signature tones for a royalty on them being modeled.

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Remember the show Cheers where Norm would always go to the Hungry Heffer? Its not beef its beff. Joyo -> Heilips. :P

 

Makes one wonder if in the distant future the amp mfgs could patent their signature tones for a royalty on them being modeled.

 

Won't happen... If you think about it, that's pretty much the equivalent of trying to copyright a paint color.

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I think the world has much bigger things to worry about.[...]

 

Besides, the world will never be rid of purists and tone snobs who will insist to the bitter end that everything digital sucks. [...]

Right.

What follows is my very own personal view:

 

These long videos (I saw all of 'em -_- ) were obviously made by a pretty frustrated german (brainworm) guy who likes to listen to his own words; I feel lightly sorry for him ;)

It's a fairly old discussion, started decades ago - sampling was a revolutionary thing at that time.

I had to follow these discussions, because I'm old enough :P.

 

Copying? Poor companies?? Copyright of sounds??? 'Ethicality' ????

 

I bought guitars, amps, I bought modellers, sounds, tones, presets and even a modelling guitar.

 

So what?!?

 

Besides, what I really dislike are empty or false promises and neglecting support :angry: .

As long as it really sounds good and works trouble-free anyone should get one's share of the cake (end of my very own personal view) !

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These long videos (I saw all of 'em -_- ) were obviously made by a pretty frustrated german (brainworm) guy who likes to listen to his own words; I feel lightly sorry for him ;)

 

Self-appointed saviors of all things pure and virtuous are the most irritating people on earth...
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 The "real" amps aren't going anywhere. If they did, what would there be to model/profile?

 

That's turning it around isn't it?

The amp companies are not going to survive because the modelers need something to model.

That would mean the modeling companies need to keep them alive and that's not what they are doing of course.

Of course there will allways be some really old amp to model, that's not the point. It's about these companies turning out new amps.

Don''t get me wrong I have played modelers for many years from Zoom, Boss and Line6 and use a Helix now and really love it.

But you have to admit the guy makes some valid points about the ethics. Something to think about.

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But you have to admit the guy makes some valid points about the ethics.

No, I Don't. He's a cranky elitist with an axe to grind. That lengthy diatribe was a vehicle for showing the world his collection of pricey tube amps, and talking about his golden ears. He ain't sitting up nights, whipping himself into a frenzy out of any genuine concern for the violation of intellectual property that isn't even his.

 

You can't copyright "tone" any more than you could a key signature, or declare that Stephen King is the only guy allowed to write twisted horror novels. It's absurd.

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The obvious: Life (and everything in it) is constantly changing.

Pagers got replaced by cell phones and now they get replaced by smart phones, and those will get replaced at some point as well.

Modellers replace real amps and effects (we know not fully, but close enough) and once there will be hardly any real amps worth modelling the modellers will invent some virtual amp models (what we already see in Line 6 originals).

Things just change ... there is no sense fighting it. Enjoy the old and the new for what it offers and while it lasts.

It's not going to stay like it is now!

Ethics (man made rules) are not preserving anything on the long run as life will roll over it like it did in the past.

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Your are missing the reason why he made the videos.

Some people buy amps via web they clone the amp using kemper and they return the amp to the shop a few days later, the shop must refund the customer because there is an European rule about item purchased by web that allow to recede the purchase in a week or two(i don't rember) and completely refunded .

This is immoral.

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I get that point and the bitter taste it leaves.

But it is in no way different than if they buy the amp, make a hit record with it and bring it back for a refund.

They are using a morally suspect loop hole in our for the most part law-governed society.

If you live in USA and talk with retail employees you would be amazed on what they take back for a full refund while we all ultimately pay for it.

My point is 'this is life at work', call evolution if you will. What moral or ethical rules imply does not really matter much in practice in this case because preventing this 'stealing' of the amp's sound is not enforcable (yet). You simply do not buy what you can do with the amp. You just buy the amp (today). Maybe tomorrow you will be forced to buy the right to use it limited to commercial use, personal enjoyment, etc.

It reminds me of sheet music! In the countries I am more familiar with you can't get a refund for it (for obvious reasons). Same with opened CDs, DVDs, and other media. Maybe the amp manufactures need to switch to selling amp use licenses instead of amps ;-)

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Your are missing the reason why he made the videos.

Some people buy amps via web they clone the amp using kemper and they return the amp to the shop a few days later, the shop must refund the customer because there is an European rule about item purchased by web that allow to recede the purchase in a week or two(i don't rember) and completely refunded .

This is immoral.

Those laws exist to protect consumers. The end result is no different than if someone buys the amp and returns it because they simply didn't like it. Companies would be laughing all the way to the bank if "all sales are final" were the law of the land. How much sleep do you think they'd be losing if you got stuck with a $2000 amp that you hated? FAR more people would end up getting screwed this way...which scenario do you prefer?

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Five or six decades ago, if someone wanted to steal a record, they had to physically walk into a shop and take it. That was a lot riskier that just clicking a link on a computer screen. It seems like "advances in technology" alters what is morally acceptable. 

 

I'm not here to judge it, just stating an observation.

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Five or six decades ago......

And five or six millennia ago it was socially acceptable (and hence ethical) to make human sacrifices to appease the gods. In fact, some might look at ISIL and claim that the same is true today.

 

Now we can segue into a debate of whether ethics is a reflection of some absolute and unchanging standard of right vs. wrong, or merely a reflection of changing social norms and behaviours over time.

 

 

.... And I'm outta here......

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.... And I'm outta here......

 

I thought my post was quite relevant to the request of the OP to discuss the ethics of profiling technology (which was the agenda of the EytschPi42 videos, not modeling). Profiling technology makes it quite easy to "appropriate" amp tones by buying, profiling, then returning an amp. It's not really a stretch for many to equate that with stealing. How ISIL and human sacrifice got thrown into the mix seems diversionary and used to aggrandize your otherwise irrelevant post. Isn't that what trolls do? 

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Those laws exist to protect consumers. The end result is no different than if someone buys the amp and returns it because they simply didn't like it. Companies would be laughing all the way to the bank if "all sales are final" were the law of the land. How much sleep do you think they'd be losing if you got stuck with a $2000 amp that you hated? FAR more people would end up getting screwed this way...which scenario do you prefer?

 

No one is questioning the law here. Yes, it's good the consumer gets protected.

The point here is that people who actually do like and want the amp abuse the law by buying it with no intention of keeping it but to make a profile so they can have the amp tone anyway. that seems kind of wrong.

It's a bit like killing a guy by accident in a self defense situation or premeditated murder, quite different things.

With the first you can actually walk free, while the second will get you the electric chair in some states.

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Five or six decades ago, if someone wanted to steal a record, they had to physically walk into a shop and take it. That was a lot riskier that just clicking a link on a computer screen. It seems like "advances in technology" alters what is morally acceptable. 

 

I'm not here to judge it, just stating an observation.

 

The advances in thechnology doesn't alter what is morally acceptable at all. the only thing that changes is the risk of being caught and that might be more aceptable to many people. It doesn't make it right though. If you find in morally unacceptable to steal music, then it's just as wrong to steal a record from the store as to download the mussic ilegally. It's the fact that a smaller chance of getting caught makes it easier to do it and people will steal even though they know it's wrong. Making it easy to steal doesn;t suddenly make it ok.

Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty myself but I have to admit it never really felt totally allright to download music and this thing has got me thinking.

It's a little late but there you go, I'm a f##ked up human being, like most. I'm just a little less f##ked up than the ones who actually beleive it's ok to steal if there's little to no chance of getting caught. I think I might have to change my ways to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

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The advances in thechnology doesn't alter what is morally acceptable at all. the only thing that changes is the risk of being caught and that might be more aceptable to many people. It doesn't make it right though. If you find in morally unacceptable to steal music, then it's just as wrong to steal a record from the store as to download the mussic ilegally. It's the fact that a smaller chance of getting caught makes it easier to do it and people will steal even though they know it's wrong. Making it easy to steal doesn;t suddenly make it ok.

 

I agree, but its almost like people look at physical property differently than digital property. People who would never think of walking into a Walmart and stealing a physical DVD of Back to the Future may very well have an illegal digital copy of it on their home computer. That's why I said "It seems like "advances in technology" alters what is morally acceptable.

 

I never considered Kemper profiling as stealing, but I think EytschPi42 makes some good points that have real life repercussions.

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Americans = 10 second vines. 20 second soundbytes. 160 character text messages and twitter feeds. Hell, have you even read this far? 

 

Germans = a 30 minute video of a guy sitting on a chair drinking coffee talking about --- it doesn't matter. It was a video of him sitting there drinking coffee for 30 minutes. The only editing or special effect was the mood lighting behind the wall of amps. Just click record and go. 

 

 

 

Hey, didn't I just say something along these same lines? 

You guys with your $200 Chinese guitars - you are willing to play for $50. But when you start spending $2000 on gear, and $50-100 for regular setups --- $50 isn't enough. And then, because you are only getting $50, you aren't planning on buying the $2000 gear. 

 

Yes, it is theft. As someone in the retail business, I sell stuff, I also do rentals. I do NOT, however, provide free rentals, by allowing people to buy stuff and return it after their gig (or in this case, after they digitally steal the product). 

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We may find it amoral if one 'buys' an amp, profiles or records with it, and returns the amp for a full refund.

That said, such people are not stealing anything within the frame work current law and store policies cover (as far as I am aware of).

At present we simply do not buy the sound the amp can produce, but only the amp HW.

You can record it, profile it, ... and even drop it on a sufficiently padded matress ;-). As long as the amp HW is in 'practically new' shape you may be able to return it for a (full) refund per local store policies, customs and/or laws.

This is clearly not the case if you buy audio or video media, or even just sheet music (at least not in the places I have shopped so far). In order for the amp buying/returning situation to change the amp manufactures have to sell a license to use the amp (besides or instead of the amp HW). But until then you can profile your heart out and be legal ... and if the latter is not enough for your soul - just don't do it and lobby that store owners or amp manufactures make changes if you can't stand the thought of other people doing it.

Just whining about it will change very little

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In the big picture how much of a dent would any of this put in an amp mfgs wallet? Probably not too much, if any. With the $ tag of a Kemper as high as it is I don't know anyone personally who has ever had one (forums aside) and even then doesn't the user have to know how to "extract" the "magic vibe". If you can sit down and dial in a JCM tone that is really close on the HD haven't you just eliminated another JCM sale too.

 

So to morals on modeling I say bah!, the argument is better placed towards the Chinese clone copies - you know the ones, "open book" headstock and a nice Gibby logo. I've even seen a few fake Ibby Jems all trying to be pawned off as authentic.

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If you can sit down and dial in a JCM tone that is really close on the HD haven't you just eliminated another JCM sale too.

 

Correct. There two entirely different arguments here. An mp3 file, while not a concrete, physical item you can hold in your hand, is still a tangible "thing". Download one illegally and yes, you've stolen something. I don't condone that.

 

But the idea that it's even possible to assign intellectual property rights to something as entirely subjective and amorphous as "tone"...the perception of which changes from one day to the next...is ridiculous. The two scenarios are not analogous.

 

How would it be accomplished anyway? One man's definition of "sounds pretty close to a Marshall", is another's "not to me it doesn't". Who gets to decide? A sanctimonious tube amp aficionado in his cozy little studio, with a cup of coffee and a video camera?

Earl the plumber down the block who plays guitar in his spare time? A bunch of politicians?

 

And how far would we then extend these "rights"? Suppose a luthier builds a single cutaway, solid body, set-neck, mahogany guitar with humbuckers...and suppose that guitar can be coaxed into "sounding like" a Les Paul? Do we really want to turn that luthier into a criminal now? There's only so many ways to build a guitar. Commerce would grind to a halt, and no one would build anything anymore, for fear of being sued into poverty, or going to jail. As long as he's not using identical specs and stamping "Gibson" on the headstock, he's done nothing illegal, unethical, or immoral...and imho,to suggest otherwise is lunacy.

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Right and wrong, vs legal and illegal. 

Those two concepts have grown further and further apart. 

 

 

 

I've said many times -- 

You have the right to be a idiot. That doesn't mean that you should be one.

 

Add to those subjective mind states, and we might be back to "the wild west"; looking vaguely at the grand history of humans, the former isn't that long ago.

 

If this form of "debated stealing" gets out of hand, the relevant part of the industry might do something about it. Hasn't it often been like that?

 

I think the OP's vid guy (just based on what I read in this thread), however controversial, debatable, arguably petting his "mind" (You did a good job didn't you? Who's a good boy? You are! Aren't you?), at worst case narsisist if biased perceptions pushed, and anyway yet is also a human being having a conversation by throwing a monolog/vlog online and perhaps watching the reaction/feedback vlogs and comments, to form a more complete perspective. Relative culture and custom differences also aside.

 

In the end, what matters is: is what is being observed a trend? Or the start of one? And is that trend leading to the degredation of quality of life by unfairness? Lower market wages and people bound to wage slavery? Even jobloss? Homelessness? Human rights violations? A utaliritarian ideology or just abuse of the theory, is so misleadingly tempting when the focus is narrow, tunnel vision, but ultimately inhumane. I'm not a saint. I learned, however, to distinguish between what I do, and what the norm that majority upholds might ultimatly become, while keeping and eye on the status quo.

 

I read or heared somewhere that I kept in my mind about the law:

Thelaw is not the product of morals or ethics, it's a product of experience.

If the experience is that of a democracy, then it will be, perhaps very slowly, but ultimatly be steared by the people. With resistance met by the powers that be.

 

Evolution. Revolutions. Case after case after that setting presedence in courts. Every type of case had a first in some court somewhere, even if the difference between the first and the second were coincidentally nanoseconds and on different continents.

 

I don't think a Kemper Profiling product might be lawfully forced to add a disclaimer that they're not responsible for lawsuits, just like any recording software or device states that you can record for personal use in some countries but are not allowed to distribute, might state at some point that you have to own the amp you made its tone convenient for usage and carrying, or have written permission from the lawful owner of the design that produced the profiled tone, despite even if it were profilling a tone Modelled from a Tube amp, so it doesn't have to follow te chain of "stealing" for permission, just the source the user of the profiller is using.

 

If you use a Kemper Profiller to copy an original Line 6 lets say a Tone from their patended original Tones algorithm/generator, would Line 6 deny the user permission for that user for personal or even artistic commercial use? Or just deny the distribution of the Kemper Patch containg the copy of the Tone? Outlandish and irrelevant case for current laws.

 

But the doubt was about ethics. Humane? Or not? Do we really know which one it will be? We never fully see the darkside of anything until we're living it, or at least are confronted with it on TV and statistics. Well maybe the latter is a bad example. Also like someone said, there are much bigger problems, and this question might be too soon. But then making music isn't that high on the priority list if one makes that comparison. Or one would need a measurment standard of what the worth of the time, finances and ethical bending has resulted for one's religion, society, and betterment of the world in someway. And not just having some form of innocent fun any more.

 

Can something ever be really simple for once? Or do I need to be delusional for that? Since ignorance at my age isn't an excuse anymore.

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I don't know much about the Kemper Profiller. So I wonder the following also within the context of this thread.

 

What is stopping someone to "teach" a Kemper Profiller ALL Helix/HX Amps (effects can be copied too?), and then returning the Helix unit?

 

Technical issues? Or moral/ethical? Illegal? Would anyone listening to a Kemper patch know where itcame from? What if that user distributes those Kemper Patches, possible?

 

I think that's when Line 6 might consider to do something, if it hurts their sales.

 

Should I watch the vids now if relevant to my question?

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