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HD600x for $750 -- what would it have?


Indianrock2020
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Ok, wait a minute...

I have long spoken in favor of driver/os support. Not just for the Pod, but for many products.

I have also addressed at it the Microsoft level, wanting them to keep compatibilty in new OS versions as well.

 

I hate the fact that I had to buy a new computer; not because it was broken, but because one day I could no longer use it to do the same things I did the day before. Places like Yahoo and YouTube simply quit allowing my computer to function. It's not like I wanted to wirelessly stream 4k video to my tv (something I couldn't do when the machine was bought), I just wanted to check my damn email.

And then, because I got a new machine, I had to re-buy all of my software. And even some of my external hardware was no good.

 

All of the different browsers available, including dot matrix mobile browsers, that they program their sites to work with, but they won't let an old outdated Internet Explorer work on their site?

 

 

 

 

Hey, there is a reason why people are buying 56 Chevy's and 69 Les Paul's. THEY STILL WORK.

What good is a HD500 going to be in 20 years! It may still work, but what are you going to hook it up to.

Extinction is the price of "progress". Steam engines still work too, but they're grossly inefficient, so they went away. No use lamenting it...

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but there is a big jump between steam trains and current methods of transportation. with current technology, gadgetry and commodities, not much changes but software and small processors. I'm no tech expert but I grew up working on compuers in the 90s. a lot of things these days are built to be bought and replaced so it seems

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I'm no tech expert but I grew up working on compuers in the 90s. a lot of things these days are built to be bought and replaced so it seems

Absolutely. But planned obsolescence is a business model...has little or nothing to do with the technology, or products themselves. Keep 'em spending...we're feeding an addiction. It's how we've chosen to keep our toilet-paper economy going.

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Absolutely. But planned obsolescence is a business model...has little or nothing to do with the technology, or products themselves. Keep 'em spending...we're feeding an addiction. It's how we've chosen to keep our toilet-paper economy going.

 

it's not just that, though. If I make a Whizbang 2000 that literally does everything you'll ever need, you'll only ever buy a new one when it wears out. You won't buy the Whizbang 2000 XL (and forget about the Whizbang 2000 XL Mark III Special Edition) if it doesn't do anything new.

 

So... I have to make sure that the next iteration of the product has something compelling that makes you want to move on, otherwise, I don't sell any products after a while, I have to lay people off, they lose their jobs, and then band together and start a Civil War and overthrow the government in their distress... It's good for the planet for us to buy this year's model, people...

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it's not just that, though. If I make a Whizbang 2000 that literally does everything you'll ever need, you'll only ever buy a new one when it wears out. You won't buy the Whizbang 2000 XL (and forget about the Whizbang 2000 XL Mark III Special Edition) if it doesn't do anything new.

 

So... I have to make sure that the next iteration of the product has something compelling that makes you want to move on, otherwise, I don't sell any products after a while, I have to lay people off, they lose their jobs, and then band together and start a Civil War and overthrow the government in their distress... It's good for the planet for us to buy this year's model, people...

This is a relatively new phenomenon, though. "Built to last" used to be a badge of honor, it was regarded as a good thing, and companies and the economy endured. When something broke, you fixed it, or you paid someone with the appropriate skill set to fix it for you. Then we discovered cheap overseas labor, and started digging more landfills for all of our disposable crap...we collectively chose to do it this way. Technology just makes it easier for two of humanity's most charming traits....greed and laziness...to blossom.

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This is a relatively new phenomenon, though. "Built to last" used to be a badge of honor, it was regarded as a good thing, and companies and the economy endured. When something broke, you fixed it, or you paid someone with the appropriate skill set to fix it for you. Then we discovered cheap overseas labor, and started digging more landfills for all of our disposable crap...we collectively chose to do it this way. Technology just makes it easier for two of humanity's most charming traits....greed and laziness...to blossom.

 

yes. I'm about to get my first smart phone, and when I tell the people at the store I want it to last 4 or 5 years, they literally laugh out loud at me.

 

I am typing this on a 3 year old computer that still works fantastic, and I don't want to replace it anytime soon, because I don't want the newer OS that is, imho, total lollipop. I've NEVER felt that way, though, so that's new...

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yes. I'm about to get my first smart phone, and when I tell the people at the store I want it to last 4 or 5 years, they literally laugh out loud at me.

 

Gone are the days of keeping things running forever with duct tape and WD40. Wouldn't surprise me if all of our "smart" devices have a self-destruct feature embedded somewhere. Had it too long? POOF...fizzle. Off to the store. Spend, spend, spend. And don't forget to breed the next generation of taxpayers along the way...

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Just remember, when you're pointing your finger at someone else there are three of your own fingers pointing back at you.

 

Don't you find it ironic that the one group of people (musicians) most typically obsessed with the getting the greatest and the newst whiz-bang stuff are complaining about new stuff replacing the older stuff??

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Don't you find it ironic that the one group of people (musicians) most typically obsessed with the getting the greatest and the newst whiz-bang stuff are complaining about new stuff replacing the older stuff??

It's all rather stupid, isn't it? ;)

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Which is all great, but it keeps getting further and further away from what I meant... 

 

 

I know how to play a G chord. 

I don't know what an IR is. 

But I know I-VI-IV-V 

What is a VTF. DSP. Alias functionality. 

 

But, damnit, I know how to twist knobs and make it sound puurrdy. And I certainly know how to swivel my hips and giggle my junk while giving a couple girls an evil grin which drives them bonkers. 

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Well my friend, nothing beats a bit of alone time with your friend (and mine) the internet search engine.

 

So lower the giggle stick and fire up the browser. In the end using IRs will be the next step in the learning progression (if you so choose).  :)

 

-B

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Speaking of phones:

 

I had a flip phone for 7 years.  When I got a new phone they laughed at my old flip phone.  I told them this phone cost me $7,000 dollars.  Every customer in the store turned around to see what a $7,000 dollar phone looked like.  The person at the store didn't understand what I was saying.  I said $80 a month X 12 months X 7 years plus tax. 

 

Recurring monthly charges is the best scheme for taking people's money...

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Hahaha!!! My old flip phone had its top lid finally break free last year an old Seimens from ~ 2007-8. I had kept that thing going off eBay batteries and some tape only because the family contract I had was soooo f-ing old they couldn't re-up due to the low $$. They finally caved in and popped for some free smart phones and matched the 2001 $$. They are a PITA because of size but really useful.

 

Luckily I still have a work phone that is a flip as a carry option.

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Well this has been my most active thread ever.  It still seems there is a big void between the $500  "POD-like" devices and the $1500 + devices.  Imagine if there were no guitars available between $501 and $1,499    And you can't sell your current model for enough to even make a dent in the jump to the Helix.  At this point in life I could go buy ten Helix's tomorrow, financially speaking. But it's always about the wife  :-)   And it is not easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission ( that statement keeps divorce lawyers rich )

After a lot of work ( and help from this group ) I'm enjoying my 500x tones immensely, and there is more gold to be discovered.  But the tone-quest never ends.  I'm not one who believes that tone is in the fingers.  Sure a professional can do wonders with cheap musical gear as can a golf pro with a $100 set of clubs.  But for most of us average mortals, better gear makes up for the fact that we aren't John Mayer and don't have more than a few hours a week to play.   

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I think its a YMMV issue though and tone chasing falls back to the "ear of the beholder". Much of my gear falls back to want rather than need.

 

My old RP250 (and Pod 2.0) can crank away awesomely through a power amp/cab - it has the basics I need (clean, blues, rock) for general use jamming. But the HD (for ex) has the variety and realism I want for more accurate models for my own enjoyment when things needs to be notched up (gig vs jamming/OMs).

 

Gear can't make bad technique better IMO but then again price doesn't always equate to cheap/bad.

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... It still seems there is a big void between the $500  "POD-like" devices and the $1500 + devices.  Imagine if there were no guitars available between $501 and $1,499 ...   

 

I agree, and wonder what people might have up their sleeve in that space. First guy to do it and really deliver something meaningful wins. Eleven Rack was in that space. It's essentially gone. Amplifire is in that space, but is really its own thing.

 

I'll bet that everybody's R&D departments have this in mind right this very second.

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Hey Peter, I think you are right and there is a gap in the market right now. I was hoping Zoom would have stepped up and fixed some issues with the G5 but the "new" G5n seems to have fallen short. Digitech seems awfully quiet - I really liked the gsp1101 (with the beta firmware for IRs) but it seems to have floundered.

 

What but the HD is there?

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Hey Peter, I think you are right and there is a gap in the market right now. I was hoping Zoom would have stepped up and fixed some issues with the G5 but the "new" G5n seems to have fallen short. Digitech seems awfully quiet - I really liked the gsp1101 (with the beta firmware for IRs) but it seems to have floundered.

 

What but the HD is there?

 

The problem, I think, is frankly the Boss GT-100 and Line 6 HD 500 are just... that... awesome... stretch a little to the Amplifire... and perhaps there just is no way to create something meaningful in the 750-1000 dollar space...? I mean, adjusted for inflation, consider how the AX8 and Helix blow away anything that would have been available 20 years ago at what would have been the price then...?

 

Honestly, on one level here, we're complaining about nothing, aren't we. I mean, I love Helix, but if I had to use HD 500 for another 10 years, I'd be delighted still. I never got tired of that box!

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The problem, I think, is frankly the Boss GT-100 and Line 6 HD 500 are just... that... awesome... stretch a little to the Amplifire... and perhaps there just is no way to create something meaningful in the 750-1000 dollar space...? I mean, adjusted for inflation, consider how the AX8 and Helix blow away anything that would have been available 20 years ago at what would have been the price then...?

 

Honestly, on one level here, we're complaining about nothing, aren't we. I mean, I love Helix, but if I had to use HD 500 for another 10 years, I'd be delighted still. I never got tired of that box!

Part of it, I think, is having too many options at too many different price points creates confusion. The last thing companies want are paralyzed customers. "Do I spend the extra $250, or not?" might have people waffling for weeks. Having the line drawn at over or under $1000 makes more sense to me. How much different will the $500 modeler be from the $750 one? And the $750 from the $1000 one? And so on...

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That's like the sportscar thing. I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be that the major car manufacturers didn't make hardly any money on their high-end sportscars. But... they make money on every Dodge Charger SRT they sell to a guy who wishes he could afford a Viper and thinks that's a "Viper Junior"...

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I think my initial post referred to how an auto company would not keep selling the same car without changes, at the same price, year after year. ( model packs were an exception to the "no change" in Line6's case)    So if the analogy carries over to other industries, at some point you would offer the 2016 Mustang, with some improvements, probably at a slightly higher price.  But the 2016 Mustang wouldn't be 30% better than 2015 but cost 3 times as much.

 

Maybe it's just time for the next model.  As the PODs progressed from XT to XT3  XtLive to 500 etc they didn't go up in price by a factor of 3 did they?  A lot of us are never, ever going to spend $1500 for a multi-effect, but would sell our 2 or 3 year  old model for half or less of the original price in an effort to get an improved model ( say 20% better and 10-20% more expensive ).

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That's like the sportscar thing. I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be that the major car manufacturers didn't make hardly any money on their high-end sportscars. But... they make money on every Dodge Charger SRT they sell to a guy who wishes he could afford a Viper and thinks that's a "Viper Junior"...

Near as I can tell, they make most of their money convincing people that is in their best interest to buy the extended warranty for an extra $1700, the $279 leather/upholstery protection package (seriously? I have no exposed, double-edged blades in my wardrobe. Beyond stupid...), $400 for tire and rim protection, and all the other "peace of mind" crap they've invented.

 

I'm at point now, when they start that s***, I say "Look, I know you have to try and upsell me on all this junk, so I'll give one blanket "no", right now. If you insist on going through the whole menu, you're gonna loose this sale". Usually shuts them up.

 

Here endeth the rant. ;)

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IndianRock,

 

I think a lot depends on how well the Helix ends up selling, and the jury is still out on that.

 

I would agree that if the Helix proves to be too expensive to gain adequate market momentum, L6 will be faced with either lowering the price (which will infuriate the early adopters) or do a slimmed down Helix/upscaled POD to attract those of us that can't justify the price point of a Helix.  In any case I doubt that will happen soon.

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I think a lot depends on how well the Helix ends up selling, and the jury is still out on that.

 

Except that it's been out a few months now, and Line 6 says that it's selling beyond their wildest dreams. I think the jury is mostly not out on that anymore.

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Any new product gets an initial surge, that's not surprising.  The test comes after the initial release and somewhere within the next year as far as how it sustains it's momentum.  I'm not really sure Line 6 would make a statement other than what they made at this point.  If things go quiet over the next 6 to 12 months, strategies could change.  I rarely believe press releases, but I do believe quarterly reports.

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What else would you expect L6 to say? "No, people aren't interested in our newest product that we spent so much money inventing and hyping."

 

Pretty easy to believe them, though, when they can't meet demand and that thread on TGP has how many thousand posts?

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Helix IS the budget stop gap between Line 6 and AxeFX.  I can't see any reason they would do this, at least at this point, and possibly threaten the growth of the marketplace for the Helix.  Maybe after they've recovered their R&D costs on the Helix if they feel there's some marketshare to be gained in the gap between the POD HD and Helix, they might consider that.  But that seems like it would be at least a year away from making that kind of decision and probably well more than a year or maybe two for design and development of the new product.  Even that is a pretty optimistic prediction I think.

 

No matter what, it wouldn't expecct it to be too soon if at all.

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Humoring this topic, I imagine this is a realistic extension of the HD500(x) functionality: 

 

The complete collection of HD amps and pedals with a larger color screen (similar to Helix) but no capacitive touch.  Processor capable of more stuff at a time.  Bluetooth control ala Amplifi/Firebird.

 

That's pretty much it, and because of that, I think it isn't too likely to happen.  I'm happy with my HD500, but if Helix had DT amp integration, I'd be jonesing for one. 

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That's like the sportscar thing. I don't know if it's still true, but it used to be that the major car manufacturers didn't make hardly any money on their high-end sportscars. But... they make money on every Dodge Charger SRT they sell to a guy who wishes he could afford a Viper and thinks that's a "Viper Junior"...

It's a percentage thing. 

You make a higher profit margin per unit by selling the cheap ones. You also sell more of them. 

But, Ferrari isn't making their cars for the fun of it. There is plenty of profit involved. 

 

The difference is -- 

There is a shortage of rich people. If you survive on selling 10 units a year, you are up lollipopscreek when a recession hits and you only sell 8. 

But with 7 billion "poor" people in the world, you can spare to lose 2 sales. 

 

 

Pretty easy to believe them, though, when they can't meet demand and that thread on TGP has how many thousand posts?

Yeah, but there were thousands of posts before the thing came out. So you can't go by that. 

Don't get me wrong, people are buying the thing. I am just pointing out the "hype" vs the reality. 

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I think the next thing on the horizon might be a new higher end variax

I doubt it. They tried that already with absurdly priced US JTVs. 4x the price for a guitar with the exact same specs and modeling engine, a few more colors to choose from, a quarter-sawn neck, and a vague promise of more attention to detail? No thanks.

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