variable impedance/4CM/loadbox?

[jdecker33]

yo,

 

so I'm pretty new to all of this awesome tech out there and helix is my first multi Fx processor ever! great place to start right! lol so I have a lot of questions regarding a lot of things but I have narrowed  it down to my top 4-5 regarding the (4CM aka Four Cable Method) and Proper impedance levels throughout the chain. 

 

First question:

 

"Im curious to know whether or not I can "safely" plug strait into my Orange dual terror head from the helix mono out then from my dual terror into my cab?" (my first guess is no since my old amps power tubes "which were new" went out within a couple weeks." any isight on my newbie mistake lol?

 

Second question: (which is method I'm most intrigued about and would like to use).

 

Regarding "The Four Cable Method...." so from what I understand there is a variable impedance option available on the helix, which I am unsure whether or not this is what I should be using in this situation (and how to set up), or should I actually use a Suhr reactive load box back into my helix.

 

my configuration vision: helix send 1 --> to --> orange dual terror input --> from the dual terror 8OHM Speaker out --> to helix return --> from Mono out --> fender deluxe 1X12 8ohm speaker cab.

 

the questions: 

 

- Will this work without damaging my dual terror? 

- Do I need to be aware and set impedance properly at the helix, and how?

- Can I go strait from helix mono out to my speaker cab? 

- Do I need to use a Suhr reactive load box when routing back to helix? (ref. example one.)

 

(all without damaging any equipment)

 

Example one: (signal chain with suhr reactive load)

 

Helix send 1 --> to --> orange dual terror input --> from the dual terror 8OHM Speaker out --> Suhr reactive load input--> from Suhr unbalanced line output "10KΩ" --> helix return 1 --> from Helix Mono out --> fender deluxe 1X12 8ohm speaker cab.

 

any insight or help would be great Thanks!

 

happy Jammin!!

- josh

 

[jaeger28]

If you connect the speaker out of your amp to Helix you will most likely fry the Helix, and after some time running without speaker load, your amp will go, too.

[hideout]

If you connect the speaker out of your amp to Helix you will most likely fry the Helix, and after some time running without speaker load, your amp will go, too.

 

Agreed!  Not a good idea!

[jdecker33]

Agreed!  Not a good idea!

 

yikes! thats good to know, This just open another can of worms lol. is there any solution to this, or any suggested way to set my rig up safely with out frying anything? 

 

I know it may sound a bit funny but I mainly purchased Helix for the multi fx capabilities.  I would love to learn how to utilize the other features such as cab/amp modeling

although I just don't have the money to drop on a modeling FRFR speaker cab. 

[hideout]

yikes! thats good to know, This just open another can of worms lol. is there any solution to this, or any suggested way to set my rig up safely with out frying anything?

 

I know it may sound a bit funny but I mainly purchased Helix for the multi fx capabilities. I would love to learn how to utilize the other features such as cab/amp modeling

although I just don't have the money to drop on a modeling FRFR speaker cab.

I'm so glad you didn't just go ahead and try it, Jdecker33.

Unfortunately, unless your amp also has an effects loop, the 4CM is not possible.

[jdecker33]

I'm so glad you didn't just go ahead and try it, Jdecker33.

Unfortunately, unless your amp also has an effects loop, the 4CM is not possible.

 

same, lol I work with electricity all day so i know how destructive it can be when not properly hooked up correctly. I've been playing acoustic for about 15 years and just started my journey into the electric world about a year ago, 

 

Im still curious, though... 

 

maybe you might know, I purchased a super champ x2 head to get me started after about a month of using it with my helix ( IE, guitar --> aux in...--> Helix mono out --> amp input --> then from amp to cab. <--- in general is there a problem with this??

 

I experienced a pretty significant change in volume. when I first purchased the amp I could barely turn volume past 3 without it blowing my ears out lol, and now it seems like to get any volume at all i have to go up to 4-5. 

 

If I plug strait in with my guitar i have to turn it up even more. now one thing to know this amp does not have a standby switch as we'll it has a digital modeling circuit integrated into it. also i do play about 3 hrs a day. is this normal or did i just get duped into buying junk amp. i guess i would like to use my dual terror with my helix but don't want to fry my power tubes again which is what I'm guessing happened.... unless like i said before the super champ just junk 

 

any insight is greatly appreciated! I miss using my helix! lol 

[hideout]

Well, you should really be plugged into the guitar input, not the aux input. Other than that, the signal chain looks good and you should get better levels if you plug into the guitar input. If you use the same signal chain for the Terror as the Super Champ you should be fine.

[roscoe5]

Since you say you are new to fx processors, there is "Mix" setting on many of the effects controlling the amount of dry (straight guitar sound) and wet (effect sound) that passes through. This can help maintain your straight-to-amp sound in your situation.  I know that Dual Terror, like many other amps, sounds great when you slam the front end and you probably don't want delays and reverbs completely taking the wind out of your sails.

 

You may also want to look at leveraging Helix's dual paths and create a virtual parallel effects loop within Helix. You could keep your straight unaffected guitar signal on one path, then create a second parallel path with a level control block entering and leaving the effect path (like an effect send/return of an effects loop) for the delays, reverbs, choruses, etc.  You should be able to setup a Helix footswitch to turn the entire path on and off too, like a footswitchable effects loop.  You can add wah and distortion blocks before the path split for a traditional setup.

It won't be exactly like a true effects loop in an amp between the preamp and power amp, but it will give you some similar control of you effect chain and still pass some clean guitar signal to the front of your amp.

There is a lot of info on the net on suggested effects placement before, in, and after loops, and you probably have some experience yourself with separate pedals.  But just experiment since your coming at effects processors with a fresh set of eyes and ears.  Helix is a new beast with new capabilities as well, so some physical world constraints that drove and established "traditional" may not fully apply.

[jdecker33]

Well, you should really be plugged into the guitar input, not the aux input. Other than that, the signal chain looks good and you should get better levels if you plug into the guitar input. If you use the same signal chain for the Terror as the Super Champ you should be fine.

 

hmm... whats the difference, as far as I know the "aux in" is used when you have a guitar with active pickups. and "guitar in" for anything with passive. aside from the levels and maybe a bit more volume is there any other benefit you've found?

[hideout]

hmm... whats the difference, as far as I know the "aux in" is used when you have a guitar with active pickups. and "guitar in" for anything with passive. aside from the levels and maybe a bit more volume is there any other benefit you've found?

Hmm, maybe you're right.

[sinistralx]

You get get a loadbox like this http://www.thomann.de/gb/koch_amps_dummybox_home.htm

 

Then simply stick your amp into one of the Helix effects loops... the 3CM

 

Effects send into front of amp - Amps Speaker out into the Koch's Speaker in - Kochs Record output into your effects return

[Marrissey]

Hi everyone

 

I have recently bought a Suhr Reactive Load and would like to use it with a cranked Plexi into the Helix using the 4CM template, in order to use the PREAMP of the Helix for some clean/crunch tones and some IRs.

 

Which is the right routing?

 

Guitar - Helix guitar in - Helix Send 1 to the input of the Amp - Amp speaker out into the Reactive Load - Reactive Load Output to AUX IN input of the Helix, then Amp send to Return 1 of the Helix and Amp Return to the Left/mono 1/4" out?.

 

Thank you very much for your support

[ricksteruk]

Hi everyone

 

I have recently bought a Suhr Reactive Load and would like to use it with a cranked Plexi into the Helix using the 4CM template, in order to use the PREAMP of the Helix for some clean/crunch tones and some IRs.

 

Which is the right routing?

 

Guitar - Helix guitar in - Helix Send 1 to the input of the Amp - Amp speaker out into the Reactive Load - Reactive Load Output to AUX IN input of the Helix, then Amp send to Return 1 of the Helix and Amp Return to the Left/mono 1/4" out?.

 

Thank you very much for your support

 

 

Hi Marrisey.  What are you using to listen to the Helix?  Headphones? FRFR? Studio Monitors?

If you use a Reactive load box, then you will get no sound at all from your guitar speaker cab of course as it replaces the cab!

 

Does your Plexi have an FX loop that you want to be able to use?  

 

If YES you could set two separate FX Loops on the Helix, one for the Plexi Preamp and one for the Plexi Power amp.

Guitar --> Helix Guitar IN --> Helix SEND1 to Plexi input --> Plexi FX Send to Helix RETURN1 --> Helix SEND2 to Plexi FX Return --> Plexi Speaker Out to Reactive Load Speaker in --> Reactive Load Out (Jack) to Helix RETURN2

 

Or If NO amp FX loop:

Guitar --> Helix Guitar IN - Helix SEND1 to Plexi input --> Plexi Speaker Out to Reactive Load Speaker in --> Reactive Load Out (Jack) to Helix RETURN 1

 

then after that what ever your normal listening set up is... either XLRs or Jacks to FRFR or whatever...

 

If you do want to use your existing guitar cab you will need to use a power amp after the Helix 1/4in (or XLR) outs first to amplify the signal.

[Marrissey]

Hello and thank you for the answer.

 

At home I run the Helix into an L3t speaker via Line6 link and live I go directly into the PA, using the L3t as a monitor. My Plexi does have a S/R

[ricksteruk]

Hello and thank you for the answer.

 

At home I run the Helix into an L3t speaker via Line6 link and live I go directly into the PA, using the L3t as a monitor. My Plexi does have a S/R

 

Cool - go with my first option then - it will give you the most versatility.

 

Of course if you just want to use the Helix's preamps and never the Plexi preamp then you could just do this.

Gutar to Helix Gtr in -> Helix SEND1 to Plexi Return -> Plexi speaker out to Reactive Load speaker in -> Loadbox jack out to Helix RETURN1

 

There are just so many options with Helix routing :)

[STPLE]

Guitar to Helix Gtr in -> Helix Send1 to Plexi Return -> Plexi speaker out to Reactive Load speaker in -> reactive load line out to Helix RETURN1

 

In this scenario does any one know the impedance resistance of the Helix Return1??

 

I have a Rockcrusher Recording with a line out of 560 Ohms - other on the market like the Suhr Reactive Load (mentioned in this thread) has a line out of 10,000 Ohms.  A friend told me that the input impedance (Helix) should be close or match the output impedance resistance (loadbox).  True??

 

Does that matter and is the Helix able to accommodate both 560 & 10,000??  I have very little understanding of this sort of thing.  Any help is very much appreciated. 

[ricksteruk]

Guitar to Helix Gtr in -> Helix Send1 to Plexi Return -> Plexi speaker out to Reactive Load speaker in -> reactive load line out to Helix RETURN1

 

In this scenario does any one know the impedance resistance of the Helix Return1??

 

I have a Rockcrusher Recording with a line out of 560 Ohms - other on the market like the Suhr Reactive Load (mentioned in this thread) has a line out of 10,000 Ohms.  A friend told me that the input impedance (Helix) should be close or match the output impedance resistance (loadbox).  True??

 

Does that matter and is the Helix able to accommodate both 560 & 10,000??  I have very little understanding of this sort of thing.  Any help is very much appreciated. 

 

When connecting two audio devices the rule of thumb is that input impedance should be at least 10 times the output impedance of the previous device.. this makes sure that the input device is not loading too heavily (drawing too much power from the previous device).  It's much less important for line level devices which are powered and aren't really bothered so much by the power draw - so much so that impedance basically considered irrelevant in many circles.

 

It does have more effect with unpowered and reactive things - like guitar pickups. 

 

Guitars are approx 100,000 ohm (100k) output impedance, so guitar amp usually have 1,000,000 ohm (1Meg) input impedance.  if you plug in to an amp with a 500k input impedance you might hear the difference - it may sound a little more muddy.

 

However, you should have no bother plugging the 10K Ohm Rock Crusher into Helix Returns.

[STPLE]

Hey thanks. I totally don't understand. The rockcrusher on the back says 560 ohms. That would still be line level - correct?? I'd set the Helix to instrument for return1?? Or is it mic level?? No idea what I'm doing here on this aspect.

 

My helix will arrive on Thursday - been doing a ton of reading and getting ready.

 

Thank you very much.

[ricksteruk]

Impedance is not the same thing as "line level" or "instrument level"

 

Impedance is kind of .. "how hard it is for the electricity to flow".

 

Whereas line level / instrument level / mic level is.. "how much electricity is flowing" or "how big is the voltage signal"

 

VERY roughly..

mic level.. microvolts to maybe 10 milli volts

instrument level.. 100 millivolts ish

-10dBV "consumer" line level = 0.316V  (316 millivolts)

+4 dBU "professional" line level.. 1.2 volts

 

The Rockrusher outputs are called Line Level - so the Helix return should almost certainly be set for "Line" level.

 

 

speaker level...

[STPLE]

Ok. Thanks. Totally over my head. I'll assume return is line level too. I shouldn't then have an issue. Thanks!!

[Marrissey]

Another Question

 

I was wandering to use two different real heads (a Hiwatt and a Marshall), each one with its own Reactive Load, both inside the Helix, using the Helix for the Modulations, Delays and the IRs and some distortion pedals in the loop. Then through the PA

 

I would like to use the two heads together, running the pedals through both heads, and also have the possibility to switch between the two heads if possible.

 

What do you think?

[ricksteruk]

Sure that would work fine.

 

I currently have two amps connected to my Helix - a H&K Switchblade and an old Award Sessionette 75.

 

The preamps of both amps are in Helix Send/Return loops, so I can route my guitar through either preamp.. or both...through one then the other

The power amps of both are connected to the Helix stereo 1/4in outs, so I can choose to use one amp, or the other.. or both.

 

 

Running an amp with a load box is basically the same principle as just running the preamp in like I am doing - Hey you could even run 4 amp heads with load boxes into Helix and choose between them :)

 

The only problem you may have is HUM!

 

I tried my Laney AOR with my H&K and it made a nasty ground loop hum.  To cure this I need to buy a hum buster box - instead I just tried my Sessionette and it worked like magic so I'm just using that for now.

[Giax1974]

Dude, I have to thank you for sharing this setup. I was trying to do this the past days, and this comment was really helpful.
Incredible integration between Helix and the Suhr Reactive load, I can use my amp's pre with its cab or helix cabs/irs, or both together,  same with helix pre's, this setup rules everything!
Helix+SRL = total control