Helix + DT25 = worthy of more exploration

[ColonelForbin]

Just finally got around to testing my Helix with my DT25. Wow! Way cool, great sound, really - really loud. Using DT25 combo stacked on top of DT25 1x12 extension cab.

Disabled the DT amp/cab/mic using Radatats patches with a MIDI cable, and then just tweaked the Bogner power topology. Digging it *alot*. Radatats templates were a really good starting point, and they function well to 'prep' the DT for use with any other Helix patch - at least in terms of bypassing the DT and going direct to the Bogner power amp (using the L6Link). Changing patches and using it without the MIDI cable once it's disconnected leaves the DT in that 'no amp' 'no cab' state, so be sure you have it set on a voicing/channel of the DT you are not intending to use in standalone mode! Near as I can tell, if you power the DT off and disconnect the MIDI cable and turn the DT back on, the MIDI edit to disable the onboard amp and and cab remains in place.

So for example, then I tried a few of Glenn DeLaune's presets, as is, into the DT, and they just totally rock, sounds killer. I think that 'amp' sound is hard to get away from; the horns and tweeters in these FRFR systems sound great up to a certain extent. But if you are jamming in a less than perfect room with another guitarist who is also using a real tube amp, and a loud bassist and loud drummer, no matter how loud your FRFR system, there is a struggle to sound 'equivalent'. I would be jamming along, not even really hearing myself, we would stop playing, and I would play and realize I was blasting loud - but just swallowed up in the mix.

Granted, that is due in large part, to not great room, way too loud other players, not setting and dialing in my patches for that kind of SPL, etc. I don't think dialing in patches to use with the DT would be plug and play, with patches designed for direct to FOH - but it's a good means to amplify your patches on stage, while also feeding your Helix direct to mixer/FOH,etc. I just treated the DT25 like a powered tube speaker system, will need to mess about more with splitting up the amp model and cab model.

Not sure what the DT25 XLR out signal is sending, need to experiment more with that output option too. At the moment sending Helix direct sounds better than anything else, but never hurts to explore all the options!

In all very positive experience, made me realize how very versatile DT25 is. And the process is very simple using Radatats template. (Thanks!!) Also quite encouraging that the DT25 remains a viable killer amp option using Line6Link with the Helix. Best of both worlds; tube sound to hear yourself play + FRFR signal to FOH that can be stereo or mono and monitored through wedge. In conjunction with the DT25 signal, sounds really good. 

Cheers!

[SymphonicDischord]

I love my DT25 with the Helix, I really think it takes it to the next level. As far as the DT's XLR out signal, I actually disabled that va midi and then I route it back into the Helix and run it through a cab sim and back out to FOH OR into my interface for recording.

[ColonelForbin]

I love my DT25 with the Helix, I really think it takes it to the next level. As far as the DT's XLR out signal, I actually disabled that va midi and then I route it back into the Helix and run it through a cab sim and back out to FOH OR into my interface for recording.

 

Sweet!! Yeah, I want to try that idea! really cool.. Does running it through the DT like that process the signal through the DT tubes?

[spikey]

Sweet!! Yeah, I want to try that idea! really cool.. Does running it through the DT like that process the signal through the DT tubes?

Would like to know this as well!

[talwilkins]

I love my DT25 with the Helix, I really think it takes it to the next level. As far as the DT's XLR out signal, I actually disabled that va midi and then I route it back into the Helix and run it through a cab sim and back out to FOH OR into my interface for recording.

 

Probably my lack of basic understanding but could you please explain?

You disable the DT XLR and then route it back into the Helix?

What exactly do you route back to what in the Helix?

[DarrellM5]

Probably my lack of basic understanding but could you please explain?

You disable the DT XLR and then route it back into the Helix?

What exactly do you route back to what in the Helix?

 

I'm lost too.  Can you describe the entire signal chain?  What exactly is the DT providing if everything is disabled?

[robbieb61]

Here is how I did it:
​I set my DT50 so that all it's internal preamps and cabs are "off".

​Then I go from the Helix effects loop out to the guitar input of the DT50. Since the preamp is off, none of the controls on the DT50 have any bearing at that point.
​I put a Riviera Rock Crusher between the cab output of the DT 50 and my 4x12 cab. That way I can attenuate the volume down to wherever I need it and most importantly...I can get a line signal going back to the Helix.

​So I run the line out of the Rock Crusher back to the Helix effect loop In.

 

​That way I'm getting all the power amp tube tone of the DT50 back  to the Helix.
​Then I can use the Helix XLR out to the recording console or front of house mixer in a live gig.

​It sounds fantastic. And having that 4x12 cab with Celestion Greenbacks powered by that tube amp of the DT 50 gives me tons of sustain and power that just aren't there without it. And that all gets fed back to the Helix via the Rock Crusher attenuator.

​At gigs where I don't have room onstage for that full rig...I put a ARP tube preamp into that effect loop of the Helix and it gives a great tube feel to the Helix as well. 

 

​Hope that helps someone to achieve that true tube sound with your Helix. It certainly sounds like a million bucks with my rig. :)

[SymphonicDischord]

OK so here is my setup guys. First off I used the DT Edit program and a USB MIDI interface to bypass everything in the amp. I turned off all the preamps, reverb, DI out cab simulation, etc. Essentially I've got it paired down to a tube power amp with the added bonus of having the topology settings, pentode/triode settings and class A/AB settings.

 

Next up I hook my Helx up to it via L6 link and midi, then I run an XLR from the DT25's DI out to the Helix's mic in. Now in my Helx patch I set up path one as guitar input run through my effects and Helix preamp and then the output of this path to digital (for the L6 link signal). On path 2 I set my input to mic run the signal through 1 or 2 cabs and then set the output to XLR, which I will then feed to FOH or to my recording interface. I'll also usually run it into my Alto TS110a initially so that I can fine tune what cab(s) I want to use, mic settings and filters so I can hear the changes in real time as I tweak.

 

A couple things with this setup is your aren't going to want to use the DT's low volume mode as this bypasses the tube power amp section and obviously make sure you still have a cab or load box connected also.

 

Hope this helps you guys out and gives you some insights into what I was talking about.

[SymphonicDischord]

Robbie, that's a good idea about the tube pre in the fx loop. Where do you usually run it in your signal chain?

 

Colonel, to my knowledge with my setup it is still utilizing the tube power amp section out to the DI, providing I don't switch to low volume mode but maybe some one more familiar with the DT series could chime in on that.

[DarrellM5]

Here is how I did it:

​I set my DT50 so that all it's internal preamps and cabs are "off".

 

​Then I go from the Helix effects loop out to the guitar input of the DT50. Since the preamp is off, none of the controls on the DT50 have any bearing at that point.

​I put a Riviera Rock Crusher between the cab output of the DT 50 and my 4x12 cab. That way I can attenuate the volume down to wherever I need it and most importantly...I can get a line signal going back to the Helix.

 

​So I run the line out of the Rock Crusher back to the Helix effect loop In.

 

​That way I'm getting all the power amp tube tone of the DT50 back  to the Helix.

​Then I can use the Helix XLR out to the recording console or front of house mixer in a live gig.

 

​It sounds fantastic. And having that 4x12 cab with Celestion Greenbacks powered by that tube amp of the DT 50 gives me tons of sustain and power that just aren't there without it. And that all gets fed back to the Helix via the Rock Crusher attenuator.

 

​At gigs where I don't have room onstage for that full rig...I put a ARP tube preamp into that effect loop of the Helix and it gives a great tube feel to the Helix as well. 

 

​Hope that helps someone to achieve that true tube sound with your Helix. It certainly sounds like a million bucks with my rig. :)

 

That's pretty cool.  All I need is an attenuator and I could give that a whirl.  Thanks.

 

OK so here is my setup guys. First off I used the DT Edit program and a USB MIDI interface to bypass everything in the amp. I turned off all the preamps, reverb, DI out cab simulation, etc. Essentially I've got it paired down to a tube power amp with the added bonus of having the topology settings, pentode/triode settings and class A/AB settings.

 

Next up I hook my Helx up to it via L6 link and midi, then I run an XLR from the DT25's DI out to the Helix's mic in. Now in my Helx patch I set up path one as guitar input run through my effects and Helix preamp and then the output of this path to digital (for the L6 link signal). On path 2 I set my input to mic run the signal through 1 or 2 cabs and then set the output to XLR, which I will then feed to FOH or to my recording interface. I'll also usually run it into my Alto TS110a initially so that I can fine tune what cab(s) I want to use, mic settings and filters so I can hear the changes in real time as I tweak.

 

A couple things with this setup is your aren't going to want to use the DT's low volume mode as this bypasses the tube power amp section and obviously make sure you still have a cab or load box connected also.

 

Hope this helps you guys out and gives you some insights into what I was talking about.

 

Ok, got it.  I took your original post to mean you were disabling the DI out and then using it anyway.  You're just disabling the cab emulation for it.  I'll have to give this a try.  I have everything on hand for this one, even an Alto TS110a.  Thanks for your reply.

[ColonelForbin]

This is awesome you guys!! Thanks!!!

[SymphonicDischord]

This is awesome you guys!! Thanks!!!

Yep I couldn't be happier with the results and it has helped to streamline my recordings without having to worry about micing a cab anymore, between the Helix cabs and the few IRs I've found on line, it's pretty tough to beat. One thing I want to try is I've read on the forum that some people have gotten better sound results by turning up the sample rate to 96khz for the L6 link and also running the full amp models as opposed to just the preamps.

[talwilkins]

OK so here is my setup guys. First off I used the DT Edit program and a USB MIDI interface to bypass everything in the amp. I turned off all the preamps, reverb, DI out cab simulation, etc. Essentially I've got it paired down to a tube power amp with the added bonus of having the topology settings, pentode/triode settings and class A/AB settings.

 

Next up I hook my Helx up to it via L6 link and midi, then I run an XLR from the DT25's DI out to the Helix's mic in. Now in my Helx patch I set up path one as guitar input run through my effects and Helix preamp and then the output of this path to digital (for the L6 link signal). On path 2 I set my input to mic run the signal through 1 or 2 cabs and then set the output to XLR, which I will then feed to FOH or to my recording interface. I'll also usually run it into my Alto TS110a initially so that I can fine tune what cab(s) I want to use, mic settings and filters so I can hear the changes in real time as I tweak.

 

A couple things with this setup is your aren't going to want to use the DT's low volume mode as this bypasses the tube power amp section and obviously make sure you still have a cab or load box connected also.

 

Hope this helps you guys out and gives you some insights into what I was talking about.

 

Yes thank you, very creative use of the two monsters!

I Just use L6 Line with everything turned off on the DT25.

At the moment I'm using a Full amp with cab model and it sounds great.

 

It's clear there are many different and very interesting options but that's nothing new with Line 6 gear  B) 

[ColonelForbin]

Yeah, I was chatting with Radatats, I used his templates / patches for Helix to DT25 just to see how it works, and in the process realized that using a patch like that is basically like turning Helix into a DTedit interface - and the configurations you set the DT with it stay after disconnecting the MIDI cable and such. 

 

I changed up to other presets after that, and with the MIDI cable unplugged, realized the DT channel volume, tone stack, gain knobs, were not functional anymore. The master volume continues to work. Basically, any preset sounds good through it! So I can only imagine how cool it must be to route that 'DT' toned signal back to the Helix for some extra mojo.

 

Despair not DT owners! And wait not for Line6 to do anything more than is done now; you can 100% absolutely make Helix and DT play nice together, quite easily. And it really does shine! I would guess if they do address the Helix-DT integration down the road, it could be as simple as providing templates with a Helix updates, and paired to a minor firmware update to the DT perhaps?

[robbieb61]

Robbie, that's a good idea about the tube pre in the fx loop. Where do you usually run it in your signal chain?

I put it right after the amp model I'm using and then I go to the cab IR and then to the effects and then out to the XLR

[SymphonicDischord]

Despair not DT owners! And wait not for Line6 to do anything more than is done now; you can 100% absolutely make Helix and DT play nice together, quite easily. And it really does shine! I would guess if they do address the Helix-DT integration down the road, it could be as simple as providing templates with a Helix updates, and paired to a minor firmware update to the DT perhaps?

Yep here's hoping for full integration in the near future. The only thing I feel is missing with my setup right now is a chart or table detailing which power amp settings on the DT work best with each preamp/amp on the Helix. Unfortunately I sold my HD500 prematurely otherwise I would have taken down the basic info for each model in there at least.

[ColonelForbin]

Yep here's hoping for full integration in the near future. The only thing I feel is missing with my setup right now is a chart or table detailing which power amp settings on the DT work best with each preamp/amp on the Helix. Unfortunately I sold my HD500 prematurely otherwise I would have taken down the basic info for each model in there at least.

 

Hmmm.. good point. I am a total gear hoarder, so still have my HD500x. I might have to take a look at that; I would imagine there is also likely a chart made by a user somewhere in the forums; might take some searching!

 

The DT MIDI implentation tells you which cc commands and codes to do what you want on the DT:

 

http://line6.com/data/6/0a06434df0f650914b2056015/application/pdf/DT%20Amplifier%20MIDI%20Implementation%20Guide%20-%20English%20(%20Rev%20A%20).pdf

[DarrellM5]

Unfortunately I sold my HD500 prematurely otherwise I would have taken down the basic info for each model in there at least. 

 

 

 

That's the last thing I did before selling my HD500X.  I've already shared it with Radatats to assist him with his setlist.  Here's a drobbox link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fsh7bjgik73gc7f/Helix%20-%20HD500X%20Settings%20for%20DT%20Series%20Amplifiers.xlsx?dl=0

[SymphonicDischord]

 

 

 

That's the last thing I did before selling my HD500X. I've already shared it with Radatats to assist him with his setlist. Here's a drobbox link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fsh7bjgik73gc7f/Helix%20-%20HD500X%20Settings%20for%20DT%20Series%20Amplifiers.xlsx?dl=0

Fantastic Darrell, appreciate your forethought on this and thanks for sharing!

[ColonelForbin]

 

 

That's the last thing I did before selling my HD500X.  I've already shared it with Radatats to assist him with his setlist.  Here's a drobbox link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fsh7bjgik73gc7f/Helix%20-%20HD500X%20Settings%20for%20DT%20Series%20Amplifiers.xlsx?dl=0

 

 

Nice!!!!!!

[ColonelForbin]

I spent some more time with my Helix + DT25 combination (using Line6Link) over the last couple days; making progress -  for what it's worth, it's sounding really good! Mostly I was just picking Helix patches, then trying to figure out how to audition the DT topo settings - the other settings can all be changed on the amp controls.

 

Well, here's what I discovered:

 

I used my regular MIDI soundcard, and loaded up DTEdit and connected the DT25. I chose no amp model / no cab model / and no mic model on the XLR direct out - for all eight slots. A 1-4 and B 1-4, make them all no amp/no cab, etc.

 

Then I made each pair of I, II, III IV for A & B correspond to it's topo setting; IE, voicing switch I =  topo I, voicing II = topo II, and so forth.

 

Then I set all the class and triode to the same on all for a starting place, then disconnected the MIDI cables, and connected L6link cable from Helix to DT25.

 

At this point - on channel A - the option to toggle between I-IV goes away. *HOWEVER* when I changed the DT to channel B, I then had the option to toggle between I-II-III-IV.

 

I can definitely hear a subtle but specific difference in the sound coming out of the amp when switching topology like this - it really does have more to do with feel than anything; not nearly as extreme volume jump from what I was experiencing. It also does alot for tightening up the bass response, and how loose or crisp the speaker sounds. I was able to appreciate it in a more impartial sense than I did with the HD500-DT pair, since it did not cause the amp volume to increase or decrease substantially.

 

The function of LVM still has me mystified in this configuration; it just seems to lower the overall range of the master volume knob; the tone ends up seemingly the same when you lower the master in 'regular' mode or raise it in LVM. I suppose since it's not feeding the extra modeled HD signal, I don't know what all differences are engaged in LVM in terms of the power / topo / class, etc. Also don't know how it impacts the XLR out; didn't get to do any recording this time.

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

[DarrellM5]

 

 

At this point - on channel A - the option to toggle between I-IV goes away. *HOWEVER* when I changed the DT to channel B, I then had the option to toggle between I-II-III-IV.

 

 

 

That is interesting.  Can you switch the topologies on Channel A via MIDI commands or is it just completely disabled when the L6 Link cable is connected?  I'm at work or I'd give it a try instead of asking.

[klangmaler]

Thank you for your research - waiting for your next report!

[SymphonicDischord]

The function of LVM still has me mystified in this configuration; it just seems to lower the overall range of the master volume knob; the tone ends up seemingly the same when you lower the master in 'regular' mode or raise it in LVM. I suppose since it's not feeding the extra modeled HD signal, I don't know what all differences are engaged in LVM in terms of the power / topo / class, etc. Also don't know how it impacts the XLR out; didn't get to do any recording this time.

 

 

Cheers!

I haven't spent anytime at all using LVM with my Helix. When I was researching the DT25 I came across this review here:

 

http://blog.nomzit.com/2012/12/09/line-6-dt-25-disappointing/

 

Here is the quote specific to LVM:

 

"If you just want to hear yourself play, the second problem can be addressed if you engage low-volume mode, which rescales the volume knob so that it’s a lot quieter at its loudest and digital modelling is used to simulate the valve effects. But if you’re going to digitally model the valve sections you might as well just use the HD-500."

 

Now I'm not sure if that meant that the different class, topology, class A/B, pentode/triode were bypassed and relied on the HD for modeling the sound or if it means it was completely bypassing the tubes (not sure how that would be possible) but regardless I bought the DT25 for that "tube warmth" and so I came to the conclusion just to turn down the master volume.

 

Maybe someone from L6 could clarify this for us?

[the_bees_knees22]

Here is how I did it:

​I set my DT50 so that all it's internal preamps and cabs are "off".

 

​Then I go from the Helix effects loop out to the guitar input of the DT50. Since the preamp is off, none of the controls on the DT50 have any bearing at that point.

​I put a Riviera Rock Crusher between the cab output of the DT 50 and my 4x12 cab. That way I can attenuate the volume down to wherever I need it and most importantly...I can get a line signal going back to the Helix.

 

​So I run the line out of the Rock Crusher back to the Helix effect loop In.

 

​That way I'm getting all the power amp tube tone of the DT50 back  to the Helix.

​Then I can use the Helix XLR out to the recording console or front of house mixer in a live gig.

 

​It sounds fantastic. And having that 4x12 cab with Celestion Greenbacks powered by that tube amp of the DT 50 gives me tons of sustain and power that just aren't there without it. And that all gets fed back to the Helix via the Rock Crusher attenuator.

 

​At gigs where I don't have room onstage for that full rig...I put a ARP tube preamp into that effect loop of the Helix and it gives a great tube feel to the Helix as well. 

 

​Hope that helps someone to achieve that true tube sound with your Helix. It certainly sounds like a million bucks with my rig. :)

 

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is what I had in mind.  I'm currently running my HD500+ dt-25.  I use the direct out on my dt25, but i have a Rock crusher and just squash the sound to the cab  when recording so it's not outputting any sound, but it still uses the tubes on the dt-25 on the direct out.  (I do it that way since having it in standby mode doesn't use the tubes, and i don't want to kill my neighbors)

 

Sounds amazing right?  It's like night and day when using the tubes vs without.  I want to do the same with the helix.  Use the helix as the preamp +fx etc.., but use the tubes on the DT.  

 

Seems like supplies for the helix are low in Canada so I may have to get one without getting to test it out first.  Do you have any simple test clips to check out?  I'm having a heck of a time finding clips of your kind of setup, and I'm hesitant to pull the trigger without getting to put my hands on it first but it looks like that's my only option right now. 

 

 

[ColonelForbin]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is what I had in mind.  I'm currently running my HD500+ dt-25.  I use the direct out on my dt25, but i have a Rock crusher and just squash the sound to the cab  when recording so it's not outputting any sound, but it still uses the tubes on the dt-25 on the direct out.  (I do it that way since having it in standby mode doesn't use the tubes, and i don't want to kill my neighbors)

 

Sounds amazing right?  It's like night and day when using the tubes vs without.  I want to do the same with the helix.  Use the helix as the preamp +fx etc.., but use the tubes on the DT.  

 

Seems like supplies for the helix are low in Canada so I may have to get one without getting to test it out first.  Do you have any simple test clips to check out?  I'm having a heck of a time finding clips of your kind of setup, and I'm hesitant to pull the trigger without getting to put my hands on it first but it looks like that's my only option right now. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I need to explore this more! I keep getting distracted by Helix + FRFR speakers.

[diggerbarnz]

Sorry if this has been covered & I didn't see it , but as far as the 

Known Bugs in DT edit...

I was not able to get some of the DT's values when syncing. Getting values from the amp is not documented at all and I hope that I will get some help from Line6 here. But I've not received a response from them yet.

Currently the following dials and controls will not show the current state of the DT:

• Reverb A: Decay, Pre Delay, Tone and Bypass state.
• Reverb B: Decay, Pre Delay, Tone and Bypass state.

The editor will alter these values only when you actually move a dial. If you don't touch these controls then the amp will keep it's stored settings.

Does this apply if I chose NO AMPS? Or do I have to go in again & touch on every dial

Thanks