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Helix Vs. AX8

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Turn over rate high? ...

Maybe. Or perhaps growing to respond to the incessant demands of 'We want more, and faster!'

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LOL don't we all SH, don't we all!  :D

 

I can't believe I'm waiting 2 months for a rack unit... But good things come to those that wait...

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Turn over rate high?

 

Nope. Growing. We have big plans and would love more product gurus and rock star engineers to help realize them.

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Nope. Growing. We have big plans and would love more product gurus and rock star engineers to help realize them.

Well Im easy but Im not cheap.... Or did I get that backwards?  :P

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I currently use an HD500 and overall I'm quite happy w/it.  It seems to do pretty well both in a FRFR setup asa well as 4CM. There's really only 2 things that I dislike about the HD500 and Helix someone manged to not address them:

 

1) The pitch shifter.  

    It's still monophonic on a flagship product.  

    As far as I know it also has no concept of formant shifting so sounds pretty 2nd rate/artificial.

 

2) The 'looper' is very bare bones.  

    No tempo sync.  

    No quantize.  

    No auto start.

 

These effects feel more comparable to an RP1000 or HD500 than an AX8.  While the hardware and routing is brilliant, Helix's DSP feels very 'last gen'.  My plan is to give it a year and see what happens and if L6 can't up their game, go w/an AX8.  That would be a bummer because I've been using line 6 stuff since the Guitar Port came out and, for the most part, been content.

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 My plan is to give it a year and see what happens and if L6 can't up their game, go w/an AX8.  That would be a bummer because I've been using line 6 stuff since the Guitar Port came out and, for the most part, been content.

 

And how do you really know within a years time that Fractal will up their game enough to suite you? 

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I own the Helix and tried AX8... I also think Ax8 has a bit of an edge on the raw amp sound... but with identical IRs loaded (ownhammer).. its comparable...  but I really need recording functions so I couldn't stick with Ax8...

 

I have been reading a lot about Helix fizz.... maybe its just me.. I own a American fender deluxe.. and used marshall combo..

Helix is spot on with fender and Marshall combo seems to have more fizz than Helix...

 

I already have the stage source.....and I am just waiting for the next generation of Variax..... than my dream would become truth....

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it's too soon... I really would like to hear Helix results in a record. 

 

does anybody know an artist who has recorded his tracks with helix in an album already released? I remember the magazine Guitarrist posted an article about a band who recorded his demo with a PODxt and when they presented the demo to the record label the company asked them to keep the PODxt as part of the production since it was impossible to get those tones from real amps. I'm gonna search the mag to share the info with the comunity, I think it was Cold Play, I don't remember exactly. Evanescence recorded his first album with Line6 amps (and emg pickups). The firts time I heard PODxt through professional speaker monitor in flat response I was shocked how great and real they sounded. So the remastering final result must be awesome!!!

 

by now we only can count on our shared experiences and some examples non professional recorded posted on facebook, youtube, soundcloud and bandcamp

 

yet, those kemper helix ax8 are killer in those posts; tiny pieces of great music, recorded with inspiring tones from those gears

 

so, I can't wait to hear Helix in a professional recording studio album from a mainstream artist

 

I'm working very hard on mine to release an album or a single

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Attention armchair product managers: Think you can do better? We're hiring.

DI. You always give us gold on your comments/ retorts!

Ok I'll bite just this once.

 

Di: think you can do better? My reply: o my gosh that's some big boots to fill, I don't think I would be up to the grueling task of putting out 1 good update every 5 months. (2 if we count that update that had an fx or 2)

 

I know your going to say way more bug fixes (I mean updates) were put out. Those don't count should have terminX spray the helix line before release date....... :)

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Now that I think of it, the Helix does address my other HD 500 gripe:User IRs.

 

And how do you really know within a years time that Fractal will up their game enough to suite you? 

 

While that could be true these are the only features that I would use on a regular basis and Fractal is already delivering.  Everything else is just bells and whistles that might be fun to play with but not something that would add every day value (for me).  

 

I really want to like the Helix as the hardware/UXis far beyond the AX8 and no amount of firmware is going to change that.  Given it has the same processor as an AX8 I know this is at least potentially possible.  

 

These are the only 2 effects I've really scrutinized but it does make me wonder how 'advanced' the other effects are. Are they all 'last gen' caliber?

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MAYBE GUITAR PLAYING ISNT YOUR CALLING! What an arrogant statement if you can't coax good tones out of a processor. Maybe it's just some guys aren't nex gen interface gurus. Wow!

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Now that I think of it, the Helix does address my other HD 500 gripe:User IRs.

 

 

While that could be true these are the only features that I would use on a regular basis and Fractal is already delivering.  Everything else is just bells and whistles that might be fun to play with but not something that would add every day value (for me).  

 

I really want to like the Helix as the hardware/UXis far beyond the AX8 and no amount of firmware is going to change that.  Given it has the same processor as an AX8 I know this is at least potentially possible.  

 

These are the only 2 effects I've really scrutinized but it does make me wonder how 'advanced' the other effects are. Are they all 'last gen' caliber?

 

All of the effects other than the reverbs and some of the wahs were redesigned from scratch, and even those were tweaked and improved to some extent. Yes, you're right Line 6 doesn't do polyphonic pitch shifting or quantized looping right now, and I'm not sure if they will. I imagine stuff like this is at least on their radar. I think it depends on how much interest they perceive there to be. I still think these sorts of things are not major points of interests for most users.

 

I owned the AX8 for a short while, and I did think that perhaps that its reverbs went into sonic territory that the Helix doesn't, it wasn't enough a difference to persuade me to use it over the Helix. It's still a nice box, and I think if the Helix didn't exist, I probably would have kept it. It's just that the experience of using the Helix is so much easier than the AX8 from my perspective. I don't want to be in a place where I'm fumbling to make changes in a preset just because I'm not tied to an editor. I have had several instances where I've decided to re-arrange blocks in a Helix preset at rehearsal or right before a gig, and it's a snap. It simply isn't easy on the AX8.

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MAYBE GUITAR PLAYING ISNT YOUR CALLING! What an arrogant statement if you can't coax good tones out of a processor. Maybe it's just some guys aren't nex gen interface gurus. Wow!

This post was copied and pasted from where I posted it on The Gear Page.  I probably should have taken that line out for this forum.  If you spend much time at TGP you'll understand that statement a little more.  There is so much trash talking over there and people write off equipment based purely on the manufacturer and their own preferences.  

 

My statement (which was partially in jest) was a poke at those type of folks on that forum.  Wasn't really meant to be taken verbatim, but I understand it seems out of context on this forum.  

 

Having said that.....it was SO EASY to get good tones from both of these units!  Granted in this example part of the equation was the fact they were both running through the same power amp and speaker cabinet.  So to some it isn't a "true" comparison.  But we did next to zero "tweaking".  Just dialed up amps and away we went.  

 

When I have more time I'm going to stop by his place again and do a comparison running them both direct as to compare the cab modelling of each.

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i read that wrong. Fixed my reply.

Sorry if it was visible for a minute.

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I appreciate your opinion and I agree that Yamaha/Line-6 is much bigger an operation, but I think theres a huge difference between occasionally taking to one of the members of the staff versus a near daily conversation withs its CEO and maker. To me, that in itself go's beyond expectations. But, it is what it is. I wish I was a millionaire too...

 

Define "occasionally." I have over 1200 posts on this forum and over 1600 on TGP (with over 4600 "likes")—most of those are since last June. If you think the creators of Helix aren't engaging their users, you haven't been paying attention.

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Define "occasionally." I have over 1200 posts on this forum and over 1600 on TGP (with over 4600 "likes")—most of those are since last June. If you think the creators of Helix aren't engaging their users, you haven't been paying attention.

 

This. Seriously. This.

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Helix, AX-8, which is better? Who knows and at this point, at least for me, who cares?  I don't. 

 

I have the Helix now.  Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But... BUT, does it give me the sound that I want? That would be a resounding YES!

Even if, for the sake of argument, one actually is better than the other, can the better one actually be immediately and easily noticeably better than the other? Like anyone could pick the "better" one out of the two in a heartbeat? In a blind test?  Highly unlikely, I say.  Especially at these loftier price points. We're splitting hairs here.

 

If you think you actually can tell the difference, great! Make your choice... and then be done with it!

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Helix, AX-8, which is better? Who knows and at this point, at least for me, who cares?  I don't. 

 

I have the Helix now.  Is it perfect? Not by a long shot. But... BUT, does it give me the sound that I want? That would be a resounding YES!

Even if, for the sake of argument, one actually is better than the other, can the better one actually be immediately and easily noticeably better than the other? Like anyone could pick the "better" one out of the two in a heartbeat? In a blind test?  Highly unlikely, I say.  Especially at these loftier price points. We're splitting hairs here.

 

If you think you actually can tell the difference, great! Make your choice... and then be done with it!

I agree with your sentiment.  One of the main points I hope was a take away from my original post was that they are both great units.  It comes down to which one fits your personal needs the best.  I tried at length to explain why I liked Helix for my needs, but at no point tried to take anything away from the AX8.  

 

At this point there's no clear "winner" and what I wish there would be less of is folks bashing the other guy's choice.  I see it more on TGP than I do on here.  Some of the posters over there seem to literally believe that it's impossible that their opinion could be wrong.  Literally......

 

For me it's Helix, for my buddy it's AX8.  Even though he's seriously considering getting a Helix too to go along with his AX8 :)  Buy what makes you happy and most importantly use it to go out and make some music!  That's what why we started playing to begin with right? :)

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Has anyone made direct comparisons between them using the same speaker IRs? I have read that some 3rd party irs sound better than the stock Helix ones.

This is on the list of things to try next time we get together and compare them again.  I'll be sure to provide clips too the next time we get together. 

 

I do also want to try the Helix cabs vs the AX8 cabs.  I wasn't a fan of most of the cabs on the HD500X, only really found one or two that worked for my taste.  I think the cabs have been much improved on the Helix so it will be interesting to put them against the AX8 directly and see how it turns out.  

 

Ultimately though I'm happy with my choice, he's happy with his, we're just doing this for the fun of it :)

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I agree with your sentiment.  One of the main points I hope was a take away from my original post was that they are both great units.  It comes down to which one fits your personal needs the best.  I tried at length to explain why I liked Helix for my needs, but at no point tried to take anything away from the AX8.  

 

At this point there's no clear "winner" and what I wish there would be less of is folks bashing the other guy's choice.  I see it more on TGP than I do on here.  Some of the posters over there seem to literally believe that it's impossible that their opinion could be wrong.  Literally......

 

For me it's Helix, for my buddy it's AX8.  Even though he's seriously considering getting a Helix too to go along with his AX8 :)  Buy what makes you happy and most importantly use it to go out and make some music!  That's what why we started playing to begin with right? :)

 

Indeed.

 

My post wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular.  I just think people agonize too much on which is "best".

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If AX8 and Helix were both available and both priced the exact same, I would end up with Helix because I have to have dual paths and don't need 200+ amps. If the situation was reversed, and I needed that many amps and didn't have to have dual paths, AX8 would be the clear choice.

They each have SUCH a very nicely determined market that I'm sure they will coexist peacefully for a long long time.

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The title of the thread is "Helix vs. AX8", a versus thread. Your intentions may be harmless and the purpose of the comparison may be just for fun. However, creating a versus thread is throwing bait. I am confident that was not your intention.

 

There is a versus thread on TGP and now here, there may as well be one on the Fractal forums, I don't know. When a versus thread is created, you are going to attract people asking questions, people providing their experience, people feeling the need to confirm their purchase, etc., etc. The thread could be helpful or it could be a hornets nest. Fortunately, the members here, for the most part, are civil, cordial, helpful and friendly. The Digital and Modeling section of TGP has become a cesspool. There are people there who are not who they portray themselves to be, they do not own the devices being discussed and they probably never played an instrument outside of their bedroom at mom's house.

 

As I posted above, I was able to participate in a comparison of the two devices as well. It was fun, cordial, entertaining, educational and interesting. It wasn't as much fun as the event they held a few years ago when Marshall released the 50th anniversary 1 watt heads. That was quite a time.

 

In regards to comparing the devices using the same IR, I wonder what the point is? Is this more purchase confirmation? Is it to determine if there is an improvement to the device? What is the improvement? Or is it to try to determine if the device has a weakness? What's the weakness?

 

As far as the comparison of the two, they both have different features, they both approach live use differently (x/y switching, scenes,etc.), they both approach modeling differently. Fractal appears to approach modeling similar to Revalver with digging down deep into the parameters, transformer voltage, swapping tubes, etc. and Line 6 appears to target the "amp miked in the next room" sound. Of course those are very vague descriptions, but the point is there.

 

This just the beginning ladies and gentlemen, wait till more of these devices get into the hands of the internet swarms. These versus threads will be popping up regularly, enjoy.

Any further comparisons we do, whether it by IR's, cab sims, etc, is purely for our own entertainment and enjoyment.  I think it's fun getting these two units together and seeing what they're capable of.  I don't have any interest in trying to root out any weaknesses in either device.  

 

I'm fully satisfied with my purchase and so is my friend, so neither of us are trying to further justify our choices.  We just have a good time getting together, playing some guitar, and messing around with these two boxes.  Even without Helix and AX8 to compare we still enjoy just getting together and messing around with different gear and playing some tunes.  

 

Maybe the title is baiting the waters a bit, but it's all in good fun imo.  I don't see in harm in the discussion.  And it may be useful to some who are on the fence and looking to compare the two of them and see what fits their needs the best.  As stated I don't feel like either unit is "better" than the other one.  Just different.  

 

I have to take breaks from TGP because as you said it can be a cesspool and it gets to me after a while.  Most threads there devolve into pointless bickering.  

 

I like this forum much better :)

 

Cheers

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The other cool thing is that more people using different solutions means that when we play together, we bring different sounds together and they create more complex musical sound, imho.

For instance, if you had a band and one guy is using Helix, the other guitar is using a Kemper, and the bass guy is on an Axe FX...

That would probably sound bawss. 

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I think the Helix vs Ax8 topic attracts a lot of attention...

 

But I think its more appropriate to compare the 2 units maybe a year+ later  given Line 6 has plans to adds and change Helix functions. Especially Helix is a brand new product. We all know Line6 started off with the good baseline vs Fractal is implementing the library they already have.

 

But even Ax8 amp sounds a bit better than Helix, I still go with Helix because of USB audio, dual paths, UI and expression pedal...

 

I have used 5 modelers before (non AxeFX), Helix is the only one that allows me to change patches on stage quickly...

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Define "occasionally." I have over 1200 posts on this forum and over 1600 on TGP (with over 4600 "likes")—most of those are since last June. If you think the creators of Helix aren't engaging their users, you haven't been paying attention.

By occasionally I mean about every other day or so on average, at least when I hung out there lots... And I appreciate and want your input here DI so lose the chip if there is one because its not needed and my toes are not part step ladder. And I mean no disrespect when I say to YOU that there is a huge difference in talking to you,  versus the CEO and software designer of Fractal. Thats like talking to God versus a disciple so to speak... Unless Im mistaken, and you are the CEO and software designer of Line 6? Please pardon me if thats the case.

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...And I mean no disrespect when I say to YOU that there is a huge difference in talking to you,  versus the CEO and software designer of Fractal. Thats like talking to God versus a disciple so to speak... 

 

Similar situation... I could buy a Fender Strat and probably not get to talk to anybody important there.

 

But instead, I own Tom Anderson's guitars. 3 of them. Not only does he answer my every email and remark on the Anderson forum, but has occasionally initiated conversations with me, remembers what guitars I own when I talk to him on the phone, and even let me buy one of his personal guitars a few years ago.

 

The guys at Fender are not going to be able to do that. Because they don't make 3 guitars a day, they make 300. Economies of scale.

 

I'm guessing you don't honestly expect the people who run Line 6 to be able to spend the same time one-on-one with customers as Cliff can. The company is way huger.

 

The amount of effort Frank and Eric and others are putting into communicating with customers on forums and such is, as far as I can tell, from a big MI company like that, not only admirable, but amazing and unprecedented... I've never seen anything like it!

 

And, for the record, I'd like the Helix (as I loved the HD 500) just as much if they didn't...

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By occasionally I mean about every other day or so on average, at least when I hung out there lots... And I appreciate and want your input here DI so lose the chip if there is one because its not needed and my toes are not part step ladder. And I mean no disrespect when I say to YOU that there is a huge difference in talking to you,  versus the CEO and software designer of Fractal. Thats like talking to God versus a disciple so to speak... Unless Im mistaken, and you are the CEO and software designer of Line 6? Please pardon me if thats the case.

 

After doing the math, I've averaged about 15-20 posts per day across dozens of forums and social media outlets since Helix was first announced. And it's not even in my job description.

 

So yeah, when I'm posting late at night from home and constantly checking forums while on vacation, if someone says Line 6 isn't being communicative, they're either oblivious or they're trolling.

 

I'm Product Manager and Product Designer for all Helix products, which basically means it's my baby.

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Thats a nice position and Im proud for ya... Thanks for the hard work! I never said you were not communicating. The CEO isn't however. Err... ;) Since you are "Product Manager" for Helix, when are you gonna add "heel down wah off" for the mission pedals? In keeping with the spirit and intent of this thread, Im pretty sure the AX8 already has this feature right freeking now, I know for a fact Kemper and the Axe FX II does, and Id like to see this on Helix.....

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I'm guessing you don't honestly expect the people who run Line 6 to be able to spend the same time one-on-one with customers as Cliff can. The company is way huger.

 

 

You might think it ridiculous, but yes, I do. At least once in a while. And you know what? Cliff doesn't have to do that either, but he does. After all Hamm, the size of company isn't what matters to the customer. What matters is that the "owner" took the time to talk to him/her. That means something, or it used to. And Im also thinking Fender might sell a lot more if they worried over people more, versus the money end of things. You see, my viewpoint is that one takes care of the other. Now Im not saying that things need to change or else, Im just saying thats the way it should be. As always YMMV.  ;)

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I never said you were not communicating. The CEO isn't however.

 

It's not Tim Cook's job to answer questions about Logic Pro X's automation curves.

 

It's not Bob Iger's job to answer questions about Star Wars and Avengers movie subplots.

 

It's not Marcus' job to answer questions about Helix's MIDI implementation.

 

Actually, it's not my job either, but I do it anyway—on my own time—unless the question is ridiculous or the person asking is rude.

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We just have to disagree about the importance that some might see that as then DI. And you know what, thats ok too...  

 

But...  you didn't answer my earlier Question. What about that "Heel Down wah off" Mission Controller add on Mr. Product Manager? :D

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But...  you didn't answer my earlier Question. What about that "Heel Down wah off" Mission Controller add on Mr. Product Manager? :D

Isn't that what Ideascale is meant for? If only you want that feature (Ideascale will give a ballpark figure) they will prioritize out of that (given its possible to do)

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I've spent a fair amount of time over at the Fractal site, particularly the AX8 forum and I can't say I've seen all that many posts by Cliff himself. M@ maybe, but not Cliff.

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I weighed the pros and cons of Helix vs AX8 for two months and I'll say that I eventually chose the Helix because of the eye candy, bling, and easy programming.  I might actually use all those great sounding effects now that I can easily see the scribble script name, with a nice color coded button and display.  

I am happy and think the effects, amps and cabs sound much better than the HD500X,  Line6 answered almost every "complaint" I had about the HD500X and more.  Whether it sounds better than the Ax8, I can't answer that because I've never sat down with one and am still on the waitlist, and probably will be for another month.  I might have tried an AX8 if it were available.   I'm still intrigued by the AX8, and all the purported Ax8 sound quality hype, but that will now need to wait a couple years.  I say purported hype, because you can't really assess these units unless you play it in your situation and most of what I know about AX8 comes from Fractals forum, which seems to have a strong bias.

The bottom line for me is that the Helix does sound great, significantly better than the HD500X (to my ears), and is super easy to program and use.  At this point I'm going to stop over analyzing this and get to enjoying playing the Helix.  Great Job Helix designers - I only ask that you continue to improve this great product.  

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If AX8 and Helix were both available and both priced the exact same, I would end up with Helix because I have to have dual paths and don't need 200+ amps. If the situation was reversed, and I needed that many amps and didn't have to have dual paths, AX8 would be the clear choice.

 

They each have SUCH a very nicely determined market that I'm sure they will coexist peacefully for a long long time.

Agreed.

 

I will be using mine for studio work.  ReAmping L+R heavy guitars at the same time while listening to the mix.  It will be my audio interface, and I want an interface I can use that is intuitive (without needing to take up more screen real estate with an editor).  For these needs Helix is the ONLY unit on the market that allows all this in a single unit. So it is the one I will go with.

 

If I was not a studio musician, and I was only touring/playing live... Then I might be more inclined to go with the Axe FX due to the sheer number and quality of FX. But then there are still 2 problems there. (I don't do floor processors anymore so I would have to go with Axe FX II XL, at easily $1000 more than the Helix)

And I would still be drawn to the interface of the Helix.  (one thing I don't like about physical digital processors is their interface, and Line 6 seems to have seriously addressed this with Helix)

 

I think the line that separates them tonally will become more and more blurred over time. Given updates, and people learning how to dial in the newer units. All this being said I have nothing against Axe FX or those who choose it. I was actually planning on going the Axe FX + audio interface before the Helix was announced. 

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Please forgive if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

One thing to consider when comparing these devices is the amount of time the firmware has had to evolve. Not sure about specific numbers, but it occurs to me that Fractal's AX8 firmware has been in development for quite a bit longer than Helix's. Since the sound character and quality of these sorts of devices are wholly dependent on the firmware, it could be something to think about for a fair comparison. Besides that, it's all subjective anyway. People can only offer their opinions. Others may or may not care about those opinions either...

 

I've never used or seen in person an AX8, but just looking on virtual paper and at pictures of the AX8, in terms of hardware and design, I think Helix far out-paces the AX8.

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They each have SUCH a very nicely determined market that I'm sure they will coexist peacefully for a long long time.

I dunno about "peacefully" ;), but neither one is going anywhere...

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I dunno about "peacefully" ;), but neither one is going anywhere...

 

Ha! Any lack of peace will be from our collective users. I've met a couple guys who work for Fractal, and they're incredibly kind and gracious. It's more like two dads on the playground, furrowing their collective brows at their kids screaming "my dad can beat up your dad!" Yeah, well shut up, kids—the dads would rather grab a beer.

 

I've said it before, but we're big fans of what Cliff and co. have accomplished (and will continue to accomplish); a few Line 6ers own AxeFX themselves.

 

Personally, I see this whole thing as Fractal, Line 6, Kemper, and Atomic together against the ill-informed masses who claim modeling sucks.

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Ha! Any lack of peace will be from our collective users. I've met a couple guys who work for Fractal, and they're incredibly kind and gracious. It's more like two dads on the playground, furrowing their collective brows at their kids screaming "my dad can beat up your dad!" Yeah, well shut up, kids—the dads would rather grab a beer.

 

I've said it before, but we're big fans of what Cliff and co. have accomplished (and will continue to accomplish); a few Line 6ers own AxeFX themselves.

 

Personally, I see this whole thing as Fractal, Line 6, Kemper, and Atomic together against the ill-informed masses who claim modeling sucks.

 

Yeah, yeah... We just want to see you and Cliff in a Celebrity Deathmatch!

 

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Personally, I see this whole thing as Fractal, Line 6, Kemper, and Atomic together against the ill-informed masses who claim modeling sucks.

I completely agree. 

Modeling at one time did suck.  Now is NOT that time.  Modeling has come a long way, so far a long way in fact that many of the people who claim it sucks wouldn't be able to tell what is modeled and what isn't with a blind test.  A lot of them echo a romanced sentiment. 

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