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Third Party IR and Helix Mics Question

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Haven't played with third party IR's but was given a number of high quality IR's by a friend to try out.  Haven't tried them yet but it occurred to me that with Helix cabs there is a mic type and placement option, does that apply to external cab IR's as well or is the mic used to generate the IR a set value?  Sorry for the noobie question, learning here.

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Third party IRs are like a sonic snapshot of a certain cabinet with a certain mic at certain distance and angle. Those things are baked in. If you want a different mic or distance, you have to find the IR file for that option and load it. The only editable parameters for the IR block are high cut, low cut, mix and level. And with all of those, you're not actually changing anything in the IR itself - just changing parameters in how the Helix processes it. When you get down to it, an IR file is really just a tiny recording. They are wav files, after all. They're static things.

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What phil_m said is correct. That's why commercial third party IRs usually contain of hundreds of files for various mics, mic positions and combinations.

For example the Ownhammer Marshall 412 1960B with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers IRs for the Helix contain 81 mic-files (for each mic 10 different positions) and 78 mix-files (with all kinds mic combinations like dynamic and ribbon).

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This is also, btw, why I find that built-in cabs, especially if you do dual cabs, are way way way better than third party IRs. Yes. Better.

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This is also, btw, why I find that built-in cabs, especially if you do dual cabs, are way way way better than third party IRs. Yes. Better.

 

It is certainly a much smoother workflow using the built-in cabs. I've not found a compelling reason to invest in any third party IRs, myself.

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Thanks mucho everyone!!!  Been VERY happy with the built in cabs so may just stick with those....the third party IR's sound like more trouble than they may be worth.  Thanks again for the education!!!

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Every time I start a new patch I try to use the included cabs: I always end using ownhammer IRs because I found them more natural and real sounding.

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I have few Ownhammer cabs..

 

I concur with most people that IR sounds better right out of the box but dual cab can sound even better sometimes...

 

the problem with dual cab is that u really have to spend time to tweak. The combo of mics/cab/settings can drive someone crazy...

 

If there is a library of sounds with all different dual cab combos.. that will save us a lot of time.. I know different guitar/amp use would be different.. but at least u kind of compare...

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I have few Ownhammer cabs..

 

I concur with most people that IR sounds better right out of the box but dual cab can sound even better sometimes...

 

the problem with dual cab is that u really have to spend time to tweak. The combo of mics/cab/settings can drive someone crazy...

 

If there is a library of sounds with all different dual cab combos.. that will save us a lot of time.. I know different guitar/amp use would be different.. but at least u kind of compare...

 

 

Every time I start a new patch I try to use the included cabs: I always end using ownhammer IRs because I found them more natural and real sounding.

 

 

Okay, now you have me curious so I'll have to give these IR's a try....believe they are from ownhammer....thanks!!

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Want to clarify... I meant Helix's dual cab can sound better than Ownhammer cab... when mixed/tweaked right...

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Want to clarify... I meant Helix's dual cab can sound better than Ownhammer cab... when mixed/tweaked right...

 

We should say "different", though... 'cause some will like one, some the other.

 

But...

 

Nothing says you can't split a path and use one 3rd party IR on the left and one on the right... just like dual cabs. Don't know what the difference in horsepower required is.

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that's why I wrote "can sound better"... 

 

left and right IR killed a lot of DSP.. regardless.. a lot of Ownhammer is already dual mic.

 

I think it would be great if Line 6 can work on Mic position (in addition to distance) and multiple mics for each cab...

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This is also, btw, why I find that built-in cabs, especially if you do dual cabs, are way way way better than third party IRs. Yes. Better.

 

I agree, the dual cabs on the Helix are excellent and sound way better than most 3rd party ir"s I've tried as we"ll!

Would be nice to get a few more cab options to choose from directly from the Helix....

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I tried the Ownhammer free set and I felt they sounded tighter but in the end they also sounded brighter and by consequence less warm than what I wanted. 

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I went to a line 6 helix thing at GC last night and they informed me that you CAN run dual mics on 1 cab. Maybe someone can correct me if you I'm wrong.

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I went to a line 6 helix thing at GC last night and they informed me that you CAN run dual mics on 1 cab. Maybe someone can correct me if you I'm wrong.

 

Well, you can use a dual cab block, set the same cab for each side, and then choose a different mic for each cab. So technically, you're not using two mics on the same cab, but with this dual cab setup, it's essentially the same thing.

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Tried the IRs tonight...they were nice but prefer Helix dual cabs...like pilottes says above, they sound warmer.  

 

archisc, I'm no expert but have had luck with using variations of the same type of cabs, silver and blue bell cabs or the 20 and 25 greenback cabs, then using a dynamic mic close on one then backing up a condenser mic on the other, or the reverse.....think it sounds better than single cab....haven't tried much beyond that simple setup yet...

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Well, you can use a dual cab block, set the same cab for each side, and then choose a different mic for each cab. So technically, you're not using two mics on the same cab, but with this dual cab setup, it's essentially the same thing.

 

 

It'd be nice if it were possible to pan the dual cab's to center (mono) without an additional block. With very different cabs / mics the stereo image tends to get unbalanced.

 

Speaking of mono, I'd like a mono version of a spring reverb too. I like to use it before the cab, sometimes before the amp. This makes a difference only if the mono version would use less processor resources.

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Would anyone be kind enough to share some dual cab settings that are giving good results? I've really struggled so far to dial in anything that doesn't sound a bit thin and digital.

 

I downloaded the free Redwirez Marshall IR pack and it sounds absolutely amazing. Really brought the helix to life for me.

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Annoyingly I actually don't know. Rookie mistake... I imported a bunch of them in all at the same time but the file names are quite long and didn't realise helix chopped off the ends so I don't know which is which! All I know is the ones I imported are mostly using the 121 mic (and possibly the 414). When I have time I'm going to try importing a bunch more and see if I can figure out the ones I'm using.

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4x12 Uber T75

 

20 Dynamic

4038 Ribbon

 

Can be good, but depends on the instrument and the song.

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4x12 Uber T75

 

20 Dynamic

4038 Ribbon

 

Can be good, but depends on the instrument and the song.

Thanks mate, I'll give this a try when I'm back at the helix later

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Well, you can use a dual cab block, set the same cab for each side, and then choose a different mic for each cab. So technically, you're not using two mics on the same cab, but with this dual cab setup, it's essentially the same thing.

 

 

That's generally how I have been setting up dual mic examples for the Tone Made Pro events.  You can do the same even with separate cab blocks, just using the same cab model with different mics.  That way you can pan for stereo setups and apply different effects to either side too.  

 

@danmal1976 - Sorry if I might have caused any confusion on how to go about setting up two mics with 1 cab model

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Just wanted to add that I have a some Rewires IRs and a couple Ownhammer IRs.  Some sound fantanstic, some sound awful.  And thats even with the same mic and same cab, just different distance or mic placements between IRs.  Out of the hundreds of IR files the give you, I've found I use about 20 of them.  In general most of them seem to be a little more present and clear, but thinner and lacking warmth.

 

But it never hurts to have more options.  And so far running them in parallel along WITH Helix's cabs has worked better for me.

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Well, you can use a dual cab block, set the same cab for each side, and then choose a different mic for each cab. So technically, you're not using two mics on the same cab, but with this dual cab setup, it's essentially the same thing.

I see now. Too busy the past couple of days to even turn the helix on. I will mess with it tonight.

 

I posted over on TGP about this also. My thing was if it kept me from chasing IR's then I'll give it a try. What my ear tells me, is that I much prefer mic mixes than single mics. If I'm saying that correct. I've spent good money on ownhammer stuff only to find very few that tickle mine. But they are always mixes.

 

The IR thing improved my 11R immensely but it always kept me from doing what I was supposed to be doing after I turned it on. The guy at the tone made pro thing did go into detail about different mics(I didn't have a clue). And had his helix toggle between just the single mics.

 

I'll dig into it tonight and see what I come up with.

 

Thanks for the reply.

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I tried the Ownhammer free set and I felt they sounded tighter but in the end they also sounded brighter and by consequence less warm than what I wanted. 

Not a bad collection really...but they expect you buy other cabs based on trials of their free Mesa's. I appreciate the free demo cabs, but at this point i still have absolutely no idea what the Marshalls or Soldanos sound like. Its like letting me demo a microwave and if im happy with it, asking me if i want to buy a can opener.

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FWIW a friend of mine let me try out some redwirez IR's.  I probably went through 60-75 different cabs/mics/distances, etc.  I stuck with the stock Helix cabs.  And I'm still not even using the dual cab option yet :)

 

I'm sure I could have "gotten there" with the IR's, but I already had a tone I liked, so I figured why bother.  

 

I had this feeling like I had to try IR's and they had to be so much better, but thankfully I wasn't blown away.  Much easier just to use what's built into Helix. 

 

I tend to play low/mid gain up to Plexi crunch so that might make a difference.  I'm not looking for heavy tight, high gain 4x12 action :)

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Same Here, I spent a couple of hours last night and this morning when I checked my selection with fresh ears I was pretty happy with those.

 

Dual cab

 

1x12 Blue Bell  121-Ribbon  1.5"

 

4x12 WhoWatt 160-Ribbon  3.0"

 

High frequency cut to about 6.5kHz.

 

I also found for different style the 4x12 1960 T75  20-Dyn  3.0" was quite decent sounding.

 

Those are my pick for all purpose rock and solo work.

 

Cheers 

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