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mdecola1

HELIX-DT Failure

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I have been a loyal customer of Line 6 since the original bean POD.  I am obviously a fan of modeling and think you guys do it best.  With modeling you are only as good as the technology available, which is why I have purchased every incarnation of the POD as they were released.  Two years ago I purchased a POD HD500X and DT25 for my live rig.  The amp is amazing but I find the POD to be lacking.  It is very hard to tweak without a computer and the modeling is not quite there.  Here comes the Helix!!!

I purchased the Helix 3 weeks ago and it sounds great in headphones and monitors and solves my tweaking on the fly issue.  One question remains “How am I supposed to use the Helix in a live situation?  I have asked multiple techs at Line6 and I get the stocked answer that “it’s all subjectiveâ€.  

The support from Line 6 for using the Helix in a live situation is nonexistent and the integration with the DT I purchased two years ago is half baked.  I understand the topology and DSP is completely different from the POD, but I am sure more can be done with “L6 Linkâ€.  I and many others in forums feel you have abandoned your loyal DT users.  The whole point of the “Dream Rig†was a complete live rig solution made really easy.  I’ve tried every configuration I could find in forums, from MIDI commands to going into the effects return of the DT.  As far as I am concerned the DT is a boat anchor used with the Helix.  We are guitarists not, engineers!  So I switched gears and purchased and returned 4 different FRFR speaker systems including your L3M and then stopped myself.  Why should I buy a new speaker when the DT is a great amp and fairly new?  You owe it to your customers to make the integration more seamless.  $1500 for the Helix turned my “Dream Rig†into a NIGHTMARE!!!

I am extremely disappointed and returning Helix today.         

 

 

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Slow down brother!

​My Helix and DT50 are sounding better than it ever did with the HD500.

 

Before you send the Helix back...try this:
​Set your DT amp on topology IV
​Just leave it there.

 

Now go grab a blank preset in the Helix.  stick the Cali Rec Amp in it. Not the Amp + Cab and not the Preamp. Just the Amp

 

​Now play that bad boy through the L6 link into your DT amp. 

​Rinse and repeat with any amp model. Just leave the DT on IV topology and tweak the amp to sound the way you want it to.

​Mine sounds amazing!

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Gotta agree with Robbie. My Helix/DT25 combination sounds amazing with just the topology setting or with the midi routing and to be honest the midi programming is pretty easy, the L6 midi guide for the DT series is extremely in depth and lays out all the programming options that you would need. Hell if you just look for a thread here about Helix/DT integration, there is a Dropbox link to a spread sheet where one of the users mapped out all the topology settings for from the HD series.

 

As far as the "it's subjective" comment from L6, it really is. There are so many options for integrating the Helix into a live situation that there is no definitive answer. YOU just have to try them all for yourself and figure out what works for YOU.

 

I don't mean for this to come across as sounding harsh or callous but ultimately it just sounds like you need to spend a little bit more time with the Helix and see what works best for you. It sounds like your looking for instant gratification and tonal nirvana which is unrealistic but I myself have found that the Helix did get me there quicker.

 

Too each their own I guess.

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The support from Line 6 for using the Helix in a live situation is nonexistent and the integration with the DT I purchased two years ago is half baked. I am extremely disappointed and returning Helix today.         

Where on Earth did you come up with this idea? From what Ive read people are getting KILLER tones with Helix and the DT amps...

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Helix and DT together is amazing.  So it doesn't automatically change topology and class with each amp. Big deal.  Use midi to turn off the DT amp/cab modeling and let your Helix patch rip.  It sounds fantastic.  What live support do you want?  It's really not rocket science.  There are threads on here and in the Facebook Helix User's Group that will help you with anything you need.  If it's not for you so be it but no need to rip the company or the gear when pretty much anyone else that wants to can get it to work...

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We'd still love to (and AFAIK, still plan to) make Helix <—> DT integration more elegant, but to be honest, it's all about prioritizing what existing Helix users want. Right now, they're screaming loudest for the editor, which will hopefully drop sometime next week. Believe me, if we could hire an army of 400 DSP and embedded engineers right now and get to everything in our EXHAUSTIVE list, we would.

 

To be fair, I've waxed poetic about the differences with Helix's DT implementation since it was first announced last June. We also include a DT-specific template preset: 8 TEMPLATES > 04D DT25-DT50 Remote. In some respects, you can dig deeper with Helix and DT than you could with POD HD500X, but it admittedly takes a bit more programming to get there. The Command Center is key, and don't forget that you can copy/paste individual DT remote commands—or all commands—from preset to preset.

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You guys are missing my point.  I'm a guitarist not a programmer.  I'm staring at $4000 worth of gear and have to sift through countless forum threads and piece together a workflow to get it all working.  I expect that from the manufacturer.  You are all helpful and I appreciate it.  I'm just frustrated. 

 

How do I turn off all the DT emulation once and just have the master functional?  I don't want to have to choose a class or topology each time.   

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radatats, I am ripping the company because they are telling me to do the opposite you guys are.  Here is a message from one of their techs:

 

"I’m sorry about your experience so far with Line 6 Support.  I’d like to take this chance to clear things up.  Usage of the Helix and the DT series using the L6 link is not recommended.  The pre amp of the DT does not get bypassed and essentially doubles up the amp modeling from the Helix and the amp.  If you would like to use your DT, I would strongly recommend taking the ¼†left out of the Helix and plugging it into the FX return of the DT.  That will bypass the pre amp stage of the DT and let the Helix do all the modeling and leave the DT to perform the power amp stage.  At this point you’re welcome to use complete amp modeling, or just pre amp modeling on the Helix, that’s up to your taste. 

 

I hope this helps out, and please let me know if you have any further questions."

​

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Well mdecola1, it looks like what happens in a large government installation where the west side of the building is told one thing, and the east side, another. Hopefully there will be movement on getting better DT integration with Helix. Guys like DI know this is important for a lot of folks and I'm sure this will get mentioned in further meetings of the minds...

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I agree Gear Head.  And remember there are a lot of gigging Line 6 users that just simply know what a Matchless or Twin sounds like.  They want to choose it, add some effects and play their damn guitar.  I have no idea what class amp they are or the topology they use, nor do I care.  That's the whole point of a $1500 modeler.  Pick and play.  Sitting in a studio or man cave trying to figure out Midi commands so I don't have to throw out a perfectly good Bogner amp is horselollipop.  My office looks like a Guitar Center threw up in it for gods sake.  In all the marketing videos I watched of Sean Halley telling me how easy it is to dial up a sound, not once did I see him sending midi commands to a fairly new Line 6 product to disable it's features first.

 

All I want from Line 6 is a workflow containing clear instructions of how to do what need.

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I think that's like saying I just spent $750,000 for a Ferrari and I don't want to be bothered learning all about how to use this manual shifter thing. I just want to drive.

 

Just my opinion.  If it's not for you, OK.  Just don't dump it on Line6 because you don't want to learn how to use your new tool.

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Two years ago I purchased a POD HD500X and DT25 for my live rig. The amp is amazing

 

Here comes the Helix!!!

 

I purchased the Helix 3 weeks ago and it sounds great in headphones and monitors and solves my tweaking on the fly issue. One question remains “How am I supposed to use the Helix in a live situation?

 

I’ve tried every configuration I could find in forums, from MIDI commands to going into the effects return of the DT.

 

We are guitarists not, engineers! So I switched gears and purchased and returned 4 different FRFR speaker systems including your L3M

 

Why should I buy a new speaker when the DT is a great amp and fairly new?

 

I am also not a programmer, but making Helix sound good with my DT25 was very easy, and sounds very good! For what it's worth I run Helix into both L3m and Dt25; quite awesome together.

 

The thing to keep in mind with DT amps is these are two distinct components in one amp; and you need to treat them as such to pair with Helix. You want to use the Bogner analog power amp; you want to disable or bypass the Line6 HD DT amp, cab and mic models. This is quite simple; will take zero programming skills, and results in outstanding tone.

 

I didn't want to do topo changes with MIDI and L6Link; just wanted to manually audition the different topo and power settings on my DT25 with various Helix patches.

 

Anyway, here's what I did, works great!

 

1.) connected DT25 with MIDI to my PC running DtEdit. Been doing this for a while for various DT usage,definitely worth being familiar.

 

DtEdit for PC:

http://rome2.github.io/dtedit/

 

User DT editor links:

http://line6.com/support/topic/124-user-created-dt-editors/

 

2.) disable all preamp cab and mic on all eight voicings on the DT25. I also set all eight to same class A or A/B and triode/pentode setting. Set boost to off on all. Disable mic model for XLR output.

 

3.) set IA and IB to topo I. Set IIA and IIb to topo II. Set IIIA and IIIB to topo III. Set IVA and IVB to topo IV.

 

Disconnect MIDI, connect L6link to Helix.

 

Change to channel B on the DT.

 

You will now be able to toggle between the four topology options, (and the class A or A/B and pentode or triode) on the DT.

 

Helix patches will all now sound amazing. Seriously loud too. You will likely find that certain topo settings will suit your playing, but in the short term this is the easiest 'manual access' way to audition Helix with DT.

 

If you want to add a MIDI cable to the connection, Radatats has some killer templates that will temporarily blank the DT preamp and cab plus also let you toggle the topo with Helix footswitches. Those changes stick when you change patches, I think the DT resets to it's default after powering down- unless you use DTedit to make the changes, then it stays with the amp.

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2.) disable all preamp cab and mic on all eight voicings on the DT25. I also set all eight to same class A or A/B and triode/pentode setting. Set boost to off on all. Disable mic model for XLR output.

 

3.) set IA and IB to topo I. Set IIA and IIb to topo II. Set IIIA and IIIB to topo III. Set IVA and IVB to topo IV.

 

Disconnect MIDI, connect L6link to Helix.

 

Change to channel B on the DT.

 

You will now be able to toggle between the four topology options, (and the class A or A/B and pentode or triode) on the DT.

 

Does using channel B, and then manually selecting topologies, select among the (preamp?) voicings for I-IV? Or may some of these settings be redundant?

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Does using channel B, and then manually selecting topologies, select among the (preamp?) voicings for I-IV? Or may some of these settings be redundant?

I don't know why it only works on channel B; those I-IV switches are not lit up on channel A.

 

No, by disabling / choosing none for the DT preamps, in this case you are only manually reconfiguring the power amp stages.

 

Think about it as a powered tube speaker at the end of the chain, where you can tweak various aspects of the power amp to impact the feel and speaker response. It's only one way, it doesn't talk back to Helix or control the Helix preamps or anything.

 

In reality, most times with the HD + DT l6link combo, you really didn't want to switch up power and topo settings mid song anyway; there were some pretty noticeable noise and popping sounds. So in that sense, with Helix just find settings on the DT that you like and let it rip!..

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So, Col. Forbin - Using your above method, could i choose one topolgy I like (for example, I) and erase Channel B of Topology slot IV, but then leave the other 7 available Top/channel presets to their defaults or whatever I like, so that I may play the amp without the Helix, excepting the one channel I've reserved for the Helix? 

 

Here's what I'm thinking: 

 

TOPOLOGY     CHANNEL    PREAMP

I                       A                   Twin

I                       B                   Twin

II                      A                   AC30

II                      B                   AC30

III                     A                   JCM800

III                     B                   JCM 800

IV                     A                   Dual Rectifier

IV                     B                   No amp/cab/mic - reserved for Helix thru FX loop. 

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So, Col. Forbin - Using your above method, could i choose one topolgy I like (for example, I) and erase Channel B of Topology slot IV, but then leave the other 7 available Top/channel presets to their defaults or whatever I like, so that I may play the amp without the Helix, excepting the one channel I've reserved for the Helix? 

 

Here's what I'm thinking: 

 

TOPOLOGY     CHANNEL    PREAMP

I                       A                   Twin

I                       B                   Twin

II                      A                   AC30

II                      B                   AC30

III                     A                   JCM800

III                     B                   JCM 800

IV                     A                   Dual Rectifier

IV                     B                   No amp/cab/mic - reserved for Helix thru FX loop. 

 

If you aren't using L6 link I'm pretty sure you don't have to do any of that.  Going through the FX loop bypasses the internal preamp/cab modeling IIRC.  You would only need to do what you show there if you were using L6 link or going through the front of the amp.

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Does using channel B, and then manually selecting topologies, select among the (preamp?) voicings for I-IV? Or may some of these settings be redundant?

 

No, the way I have it set, toggling that I-IV switch does nothing with preamps - they remain disabled in the DT, it just changes the topo. It also recalls whatever the last setting you had for pentode-triode, class A/B, etc. I have been messing with those more now that I have Helix set up this way, very interesting to just audition *only* a Helix preamp, do this connection, then figure out whatever the 'standard' topo (NFL), class, and triode settings might be - then switch them around.

 

Helix can do so much, it's easy to get lost in a sea of routing and FX, and a million options. The core amp modeling, when paired with DT like this, is stellar. 

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So, Col. Forbin - Using your above method, could i choose one topolgy I like (for example, I) and erase Channel B of Topology slot IV, but then leave the other 7 available Top/channel presets to their defaults or whatever I like, so that I may play the amp without the Helix, excepting the one channel I've reserved for the Helix? 

 

Here's what I'm thinking: 

 

TOPOLOGY     CHANNEL    PREAMP

I                       A                   Twin

I                       B                   Twin

II                      A                   AC30

II                      B                   AC30

III                     A                   JCM800

III                     B                   JCM 800

IV                     A                   Dual Rectifier

IV                     B                   No amp/cab/mic - reserved for Helix thru FX loop. 

 

Yes, I think that is corret, with the exception, that this method is for using the L6Link - if you were using the FX return, you don't even need to blank the preamp, since it gets bypassed anyway - just like Radatats said.

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