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vinny199

Latency between patch switching is unbearable

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If someone wants to buy me a second Helix I would be happy to see if this cures the patch latency issue :-)

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Every time someone suggests "Buy a Second Helix" I wanna punch myself in the face....at that point you might as well go back to analog pedals, as you're going to be carrying 40lbs worth of gear and tapdancing all night anyways. 

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Here are 2 patches I use for example.

One is my base clean sound and the IR used are some of the Ownhammer Fender cabs (1048) and the other one is my base distortion sound and uses 2 Ownhammer marshall IRs (1048 also)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0th0jxogvhz2f2/patches.zip?dl=0

 

So, thanks in advance if you see anyway of making the switch between these better...

 

I think I understand from other posts on this forum that Helix's two processors are split between Path A and Path B, and that Path A/Processor 1 shares OS tasks/load. Path B and Processor 2 is free for blocks.

 

I took your patches and put the IR's on the Distortion patch on Path 2, like your Clean Fender patch and noticed a very slight improvement. Maybe this is because Helix now sees the same basic processor loading between the two patches.  

 

There is still a bit of delay that is probably still not acceptable to you though based on you write ups.  You might experiment more with your preset blocks with the Path and Processor info in mind.

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As a singer, I feel the OP's pain. You have enough to do playing, singing and communicating to the audience and band, without having attention on how you change patches. For me, looking down in the middle of a vocal to see which switch I'm hitting, and timing patch changes to avoid latency are unacceptable.

 

This may work for you. On most songs I use two sounds, usually the same amp for both. I have them both in the same patch. I use the exp. pedal to toggle between them. My foot knows where the pedal is when I'm on the mic, without even thinking about it. No latency. No tap dancing.

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I suppose you could get an a-b switcher and two helixes (helices?) to switch between tones ?

When going to the 3rd or 4th tone, change the preset for the helix that doesn't have sound coming from it.  

Way too much stomping for me, but it could work. 

 

Come on, seriously? You're trolling right?

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Come on, seriously? You're trolling right?

I did provide a solution to the original complaint, and that's fine if you don't like it.

I'll admit I do find "the tone" of this whole thread a little silly. The patch change is not "unbearable". Yes there is a very slight delay, but equipment like this always has some limitation that requires you to do something a little differently.. There are methods to switch sounds quickly that have been mentioned by others using some paths and you can toggle multiple effects at once. Try some of them.

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I think I understand from other posts on this forum that Helix's two processors are split between Path A and Path B, and that Path A/Processor 1 shares OS tasks/load. Path B and Processor 2 is free for blocks

 

I use quite a few patches and need to switch patches during a song. I play almost exclusively through the modelling part of a Variax JTV89F and so I have the Helix set up to control the Variax model and pick up changes through preset changes (as well as amp and effect changes of course). Consequently the latency is something that I cannot avoid. Most of my patches use only one path and I have just been using path A for convenience. Does anyone know if Path B, if it isn't involved with OS tasks and loading, would be the better option? Then processor A would be loading and unloading amps and effects from Processor B. Or would it be better to spread the chain across both paths? Or alternatively have alternate patches on Path A then Path B then Path A etc as then the amps and effects wouldn't need to be loaded and unloaded from the same path.

Hope that makes sense and someone has the answers :)

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I did provide a solution to the original complaint, and that's fine if you don't like it.

I'll admit I do find "the tone" of this whole thread a little silly. The patch change is not "unbearable". Yes there is a very slight delay, but equipment like this always has some limitation that requires you to do something a little differently.. There are methods to switch sounds quickly that have been mentioned by others using some paths and you can toggle multiple effects at once. Try some of them.

 

"The patch change is not "unbearable"" ... to you.

 

To me, as explained many times now, it makes the unit literally unusable. I played a song yesterday and two notes got lost in the silence of the patch change. It is worse than other types of equipment, even worse than other equipment that Line 6 themselves produce. "Doing something a little differently" doesn't cut it, even though I think it shouldn't need a workaround like "pre-switching" of course I'd use it if push comes to shove, but even the workarounds are not acceptable (I can choose to miss two earlier notes ... profit?)

 

If you're happy with it, that's cool. Seriously, it's a beautiful piece of kit. 

As for me: I've boxed the Helix up and am returning it next weekend. If an update drops in the mean time I'll be a (cautiously) happy man, if not the search continues... :(

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To me, as explained many times now, it makes the unit literally unusable.

 

I would sell it then. No way I would use something so horrible if it effected me like this. By a Fender and a bunch of pedals, problem solved... for you.  ;)

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I would sell it then. No way I would use something so horrible if it effected me like this. By a Fender and a bunch of pedals, problem solved... for you.  ;)

 

Let's make something clear: the reason I might be edgy about this is because I really want it to be good enough.

In almost every way it is. That is a huge feat, coming from the rig I described above. I really like this unit and respect Line 6 a lot for their design of it.

 

No Fender for me haha, I need a tad more gain ;)

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Lets make something else clear. It is good enough now for most of us,  and being edgy doesn't help a thing. Heres a file. Work on those sharp edges while Line 6 works on the updates. Im sure things will get better over time, while you sell stuff you will regret selling later.  ;)

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Lets make something else clear. It is good enough now for most of us,  and being edgy doesn't help a thing. Heres a file. Work on those sharp edges while Line 6 works on the updates. Im sure things will get better over time, while you sell stuff you will regret selling later.  ;)

 

Yes, I understand that it works for you and others, that is very clear by now. Congrats on having what is IMO the best modeler that currently exists. Enjoy! (seriously, I'm glad you have something that works for you)

I'm not selling, using money-back guarantee. :) There are some other factors, lack of stereo IRs and not as much DSP power as expected, in the end this was the dealbreaker. Apparently modeling is just not where it needs to be yet for me. Luckily it's not in the sound quality but in "logistics" around it, so I expect that over time these things will def. be overcome. In the mean time I suddenly have a lot of money for pedals haha, everybody's happy ;)

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I'm playing a gig now (just taking a quick break between sets). Still using my HD147 and have been paying particular attention to my patch changes tonight. There are lots that I do on the beat and I really can't see that trying to do them a few beats earlier to accomodate the Helix is going to work.

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Lets make something else clear. It is good enough now for most of us  ...

 

Not quite sure this is the case without stats to back it up, "many of us" might be a bit more accurate than "most of us".  It certainly is good but this issue does need to be addressed.

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Not quite sure this is the case without stats to back it up, "many of us" might be a bit more accurate than "most of us".  It certainly is good but this issue does need to be addressed.

I didn't even notice the patch switching issue to start with when I was just noodling around at home getting to know the Helix. For people doing this, or using the Helix for recording, or able to play songs live staying with a single patch, I can believe that it probably is absolutely fine. It was at a rehearsal with my band it became clear that although my Helix patches sound good (to me at least!) there was a noticeable gap when switching between them. The band is me on guitar and backing vocals with bass, drums and a singer so the gaps do stand out. We do play a lot of up tempo tunes and I do use quite a few different sounds (I embraced the flexibility of modelling technology a long time ago) so perhaps I am a worst case example.

 

Sadly, as things stand I do not feel I can use the Helix for a gig entirely due to this issue. And I want this to change.

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Not quite sure this is the case without stats to back it up, "many of us" might be a bit more accurate than "most of us".  It certainly is good but this issue does need to be addressed.

 

 

 

As DI said a pages back...

 

If the goal was super-fast preset switching, we would've stuck with one amp, one cab, one reverb, etc. on a serial path. We would've made a speedboat instead of a battle-ready aircraft carrier.

 

"Many" of us read this, right ?  ;)  Just speculation, but because of the way Helix was designed there may not be faster switching available.  

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As DI said a pages back...

 

"Many" of us read this, right ?  ;)  Just speculation, but because of the way Helix was designed there may not be faster switching available.  

 

 

Quote

If the goal was super-fast preset switching, we would've stuck with one amp, one cab, one reverb, etc. on a serial path. We would've made a speedboat instead of a battle-ready aircraft carrier.

 

 

Unless you have scenes and enough DSP aboard to accommodate several presets worth of switching within one preset, I don't think the "battle-ready aircraft carrier" analogy is particularly accurate. Right now we have more of speedboat that can't change directions quickly.  ;)

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I think I understand from other posts on this forum that Helix's two processors are split between Path A and Path B, and that Path A/Processor 1 shares OS tasks/load. Path B and Processor 2 is free for blocks.

 

I took your patches and put the IR's on the Distortion patch on Path 2, like your Clean Fender patch and noticed a very slight improvement. Maybe this is because Helix now sees the same basic processor loading between the two patches.  

 

There is still a bit of delay that is probably still not acceptable to you though based on you write ups.  You might experiment more with your preset blocks with the Path and Processor info in mind.

Thank you, that is very, very kind. However, I have now made the decision to sell the Helix. It is on ebay.. Thank you

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THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO REPLIED TO MY INITIAL POST.

 

I have now made the decision to sell the Helix, so I won't read further posts on this thread.

 

My listings are here

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Line-6-Helix-/111964842889?hash=item1a119feb89:g:8JYAAOSwGYVXCjU5
https://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/line-6-helix-almost-new/1163916621

It may improve, or it may not. I don't really have the time to wait. I hope it does for those who like me found it impossible to use in a live context in patch switching mode, the only way this could have worked for me.

 

Thanks again, many of you have been very kind with your suggestions and even efforts to optimise my patches. I greatly appreciate.

 

All the best,

 

Vinny

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Quote

 

 

Unless you have scenes and enough DSP aboard to accommodate several presets worth of switching within one preset, I don't think the "battle-ready aircraft carrier" analogy is particularly accurate. Right now we have more of speedboat that can't change directions quickly. ;)

We are battle ready sir! Unless the enemy shoots us while we are changing patches. In which case we are sunk...

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Quote

 

 

Unless you have scenes and enough DSP aboard to accommodate several presets worth of switching within one preset, I don't think the "battle-ready aircraft carrier" analogy is particularly accurate. Right now we have more of speedboat that can't change directions quickly.  ;)

 

So will you change your way of playing if it doesn't happen, or just sell Helix off? Wish in one hand, lollipop in another. See which one fills up first...  ;)  I suspect that the switching will eventually get "a bit" faster with updates. Not in the next week, or month however. And not to some expectations. 

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There are workarounds available if you really want seamless switching of sounds, but I guess it wont satisfy everybody coz human nature being what it is, we always want more yet not have to pay more.  

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So will you change your way of playing if it doesn't happen, or just sell Helix off? Wish in one hand, lollipop in another. See which one fills up first...  ;)  I suspect that the switching will eventually get "a bit" faster with updates. Not in the next week, or month however. And not to some expectations. 

 

I absolutely agree, improvements are probably coming down the road and perhaps not up to everyone's expectations but I believe they will satisfy most. I don't know about changing my way of playing although I will adapt to some extent to whatever equipment I play through.  This applies to MFX, amp and pedal, or whatever. As I have said before, you could not pry this thing away from me right now, I love the Helix!  Just want this issue addressed as much as possible given the current resources and architecture. I can wait, I am extremely patient when I believe everyone is working towards the same goal, improvement. I just believe real growth and maturation of a product only happens with a combination of optimism, faith in the company and the community using it, and acknowledgement of both its strengths and weaknesses. You need people running around yelling "we're #1", but you also need to find the areas to make things better (this probably applies to people and countries as well).

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post-15199-0-79300100-1460315260_thumb.jpgHey all Helix users, Maybe you should try this setup as I have several configs like this in my Helix.

It has a full set of effects and two amps in line which is swicthed by single switch to change between amps. This gives me the ability to have same amp for lead boost with a slightly different tone and gain. My main tone uses two 2204 Brits. But I have other setups  with a Fender Twin as the clean and the 2204 as my lead tone. The combinations are only limited by your choice of amps. whith this setup I have no issue with drop out and I use the Mode switch to bring it to stomp box mode. This way I just add effects as needed. I use a JTV69 for main guitar into Helix and Line6 out to (2) L2m cabinets... Did I say Dream Rig Oh yeah! I have been a Line6 fan for over 15 years and it just keeps getting better. Every guitar player that hears my tone is blown away, plus the ability to change guitars, tunings, banjo, acoustics and all the other perks with my setup. I have just started getting into the edit side of the Helix and so glad I got mine and the HD500X is stashed in the closet now, it was a good floor board, but no where near the Helix

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All of the workaround suggestions are nice, and repetitive. . . .

Building patches with clean/dirty in one patch is a not a solution to a problem, its a band-aid for now. The issue I have is..... I don't use modeling to get one sound for recording and then a different one for live. I want to take my recording patches, with all the amps and cabs and effects and maxed out DSP and tweak them to be used live. Unfortunately, do to the patch change speeds, I have no choice but to create dumbed-down versions of recording patches with much simpler delays and modulations or other effects and one amp model for clean or dirty if I want to use the thing in performance without the dropouts being a distraction (to me, and MORE than obvious to people out front), which really sucks and basically means I have two different units....one that is awesome for recording, and one that is less awesome (by varying degrees depending on the patch I want to use and how many substitutions or effects I have to leave out) for live playing. So basically, for live, I have all the functionality of my HD500X in a box that is supposed to have much more.

 

If its good enough for you and your only suggestion is a repeat of "use a dual tone patch", you should probably just refrain from participating in the conversation for sake of sounding like a fanboy shill.

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If its good enough for you and your only suggestion is a repeat of "use a dual tone patch", you should probably just refrain from participating in the conversation for sake of sounding like a fanboy shill.

Indeed.

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If I could get the Helix to change my Variax sounds while staying in one patch, I could make it work.  But as far as I can tell, you can't do this.

To footswitch from Variax acoustic guitar to a Les Paul (Lester), you need to change patches.  Or am I missing something?

 

My HD500 performs much better at this than the Helix.  Sad.  I guess I need to think if I'm selling my Helix too.  I prefer the Helix interface a hundred times more than the HD500, but I also need to use it live.  

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If I could get the Helix to change my Variax sounds while staying in one patch, I could make it work.  But as far as I can tell, you can't do this.

To footswitch from Variax acoustic guitar to a Les Paul (Lester), you need to change patches.  Or am I missing something?

 

....

No, you are not missing anything. To change a Variax model you need to either change Helix presets or do it manually on the Variax itself.

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If its good enough for you and your only suggestion is a repeat of "use a dual tone patch", you should probably just refrain from participating in the conversation for sake of sounding like a fanboy shill.

I think everyone "gets" the repeated idea that we all want faster switching. ALL of us. And the repetitive need for such is just as bad as your example on dual tone patches. The difference is, I didn't tell you to go away. Thats just rude. The idea that someone can go "poof" and theres the fix is quite a reach, and may be doable, but will take more time I'm thinking. In any case, I think this thread has served its purpose and needs closing. Thanks. Other wise round and round she gos, where she stops no body knows....

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I think everyone "gets" the repeated idea that we all want faster switching. ALL of us. And the repetitive need for such is just as bad as your example on dual tone patches. The difference is, I didn't tell you to go away. Thats just rude. The idea that someone can go "poof" and theres the fix is quite a reach, and may be doable, but will take more time I'm thinking. In any case, I think this thread has served its purpose and needs closing. Thanks.

 

Not everyone "gets the repeated idea" or we would not be seeing such a lively discussion on this topic. I know people are just trying to be helpful but I do understand gunpointmetal's frustration with the repeated suggestions on how to make the Helix work within one preset. It is not like those of us advocating for decreased latency have not tried this avenue. We are requesting an enhancement to the Helix and people keep chiming in with "but let me show how you to do the same thing with complex routing, tap dancing, and less DSP for your multiple signal paths".  That sort of answer has led me to truly appreciate those who advocate patience as Line6 hopefully addresses the issue. This demonstrates that they understand that this is an issue for some, even if they do not agree or do not have an issue with it themselves.  I understand you are tired of seeing the repetition in this topic, I am tired of it myself and I am participating. If it gets old enough I will simply stop reading the posts which is the point you have probably reached as this is not an issue you appear to be particularly invested in. How is suggesting a thread about an issue that people feel strongly about, "needing closing", the solution to a post you don't approve of? Let's please not start censoring people by shutting down entire topics. Keep injecting humor in various topics as you have been doing so well to lighten things up when they start getting too serious, that is a far better tactic than stopping the conversation.

 

One of the virtues of this forum is that everyone can express their opinion, and I have found that pointing out any shortcoming, no matter how constructively approached does often cause people to instantly leap to the Helix's defense and try to minimize the issue or suggest a workaround rather than support a fix.  This behavior does force the person suggesting the change to be incredibly patient, take some heat, and unfortunately lends itself to the issue's advocate repeating it so it does not get lost in the noise. Ironically, that repetition often starts the whole cycle again. I also sometimes wish people would refrain from commenting if they are not directly acknowledging the issue before they suggest a workaround that has been suggested many times before. That acknowledgement goes a long way towards preventing knee jerk reactions to what otherwise often sounds like someone ignoring, minimizing, misunderstanding, or undermining the issue and ongoing efforts to get it addressed. I do realize once the topic gets long enough people may not have read everything that has already transpired. I know I have been guilty of repetition myself, more than once, um, more than once  :D

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Line 6 can certainly do optimizations on the code, increasing patch changing times by a few ms. But from what i understand there will always be a slight gap that you will hear. True seamless preset switching would be impossible on the current implementation unless 1) They limit patch creation on 1 DSP and use 2nd DSP only as a sort of preset loading buffer, or 2) Come up with some sort of external DSP box that you can plug in to the helix to do the same thing (no idea if this is even possible). Now, the question is what patch change gap would be tolerable?

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Not everyone "gets the repeated idea" or we would not be seeing such a lively discussion on this topic. 

I said that because the option "if its good enough for you" for some was to go away... And because both sides have repeated their stance multiple times...

 

if its good enough for you and your only suggestion is a repeat of "use a dual tone patch", you should probably just refrain from participating in the conversation for sake of sounding like a fanboy shill.

 

And IF you or anyone else can't "get" by now that Line 6 knows about this issue, then we have our "transmitter" stuck on and our "receiver" shorted to ground...Beating a dead horse won't get this issue fixed any faster.

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Now, the question is what patch change gap would be tolerable?

 

That would be different for different people. Some figures have been suggested in this thread earlier.

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I suspect the repetition in this thread may be simply due to its current length. Perhaps some newcomers to the thread read the title and first post or two, decide to share their thoughts, and do so immediately without reading the 4 pages, hence not realizing that what they are suggesting is redundant and repetitive.

 

I suggest we all just ignore repetitive posts. They're probably not intended to be provocative.

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And IF you or anyone else can't "get" by now that Line 6 knows about this issue, then we have our "transmitter" stuck on and our "receiver" shorted to ground...Beating a dead horse won't get this issue fixed any faster.

Couple of thoughts:

 

If people are unhappy they like to vent their frustrations/concerns and this forum is an obvious place to do it.

Not everyone bought their Helix and discovered the patch switching at the same time, and so it will continue to be mentioned as it becomes an issue for people.

For those that do find the patch switching delay to be a real world problem, I suppose there is a concern that if lots of forum members say it isn't really a problem this will reduce the chance of Line 6 doing something about it.

Closing down discussion on the topic will only make it look as though the truth is being hidden.

And let's all try to keep it civilised...

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I don't really have this problem. If I do, I've been using these things forever I don't really notice it. I go from clean to dirty, with a lot of effects, without a lot of effects and don't really hear any lag. I love my helix!!! the only things I wish they would do, (which I've been told isn't really that big of a deal) is A. Get someone on testing out which expression pedals are compatible with the helix. B. Add some of the high gain Orange amps like the Rockerverb or the Dual Dark.

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Add some of the high gain Orange amps like the Rockerverb or the Dual Dark.

The Dark Terror is a great little amp. I did an entire recording project with it last year...13 or 14 tunes. I was very surprised at the sounds we got out of that thing. 7 of the biggest watts I've ever heard, lol.

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How about some sort of "super" scene mode where you keep the same models in the patch but as well as turning blocks on and off you can change all the settings?

 

Let's assume noise gate and cab for all:

 

Pedal 1 for clean amp with chorus and a little reverb.

Pedal 2 for clean amp with chorus, big reverb and delay.

Pedal 3 for higher gain amp on crunch level with a small amount of reverb

Pedal 4 turns up the gain (maybe add a drive pedal) and scoops the mids

Pedal 5 is back to crunch but with a big delay

Pedal 6 is high gain lead with reverb and the pedal, amp gain and channel output turned up

Pedal 7 is similar to 6 but with a tad less gain and chorus and delay added

Pedal 8 is mid gain with a big modulation FX

 

Although obviously not the same as switching patches to completely customise each sound, something like the above could cover a lot of ground for gigs with 2 amps and half a dozen FX blocks in the same patch, as long as a single foot press enabled blocks (and the settings within them) to be changed as programmed without additional tap dancing.

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I must be deaf. I don't hear any of the problems you guys are describing in this thread. To sell the helix is crazy in my opinion. I love mine!! Could there be a troll on the thread? IDK......

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I must be deaf. I don't hear any of the problems you guys are describing in this thread. To sell the helix is crazy in my opinion. I love mine!! Could there be a troll on the thread? IDK......

Do you play live with the Helix and change patches during a song?

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