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Hi,

 

i'm happy what comes out of my frfr monitors or my DT25. But what comes out out my (different) headphones lets my ears cry - harsh, bright and noisy. So i wonder if i've just the wrong headphones or if it's a general effect. In the second case, i would wish a EQ like the global EQ but dedicatet to the headphones out. As i switch often between Amp, FRFR and Headphones, this would be more usefull than always using the global WQ for that.

 

What do you think?

I added the idea add http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/EQ-dedicated-to-headphone-out/813724-23508

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[...]what comes out out my (different) headphones lets my ears cry - harsh, bright and noisy. So i wonder if i've just the wrong headphones or if it's a general effect. [...]

 

So, which headphones are you using?

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a verry old Beyer DT990, a AKG from about 2002 (don't know exactly what model - sounds ok on HiFi but cruel with guitar) wich are both half closed. Plus some different open  "walkman"-Headphones/inears, where a older Sony still is the best. Have to look this evening for the exact types.

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Well.

I think, the more stuff you 'waste' in (global or partially global) EQs, Cuts etc.,

the more you have to give other (more interesting) things a miss.

Your headphones are old.

Helix is brandnew.

Sorry, but maybe some good new headphones are an alternative ;) ?!

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Your headphones are old.

Helix is brandnew.

Sorry, but maybe some good new headphones are an alternative ;) ?!

But if recorded music sounds ok, or like he's used to, then his guitar should too, yes?

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does old means bad if we talk about speakers or headphones? Really? ;)

Do i hear a bit rivalism between different whishes? ;-)

What does'nt mean the the headphones i use and wich are quite ok for music in general are the perfect choice just for guitar.

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Old Headphones start to sound brittle. You might not notice it on a Hi Fi, but on Helix, you'll hear the flaws. Also, if the headphones aren't high impedance, they can be a problem with Helix. Some of yours probably fit that description.

 

They don't last forever if you use them a lot.

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"Most headphones doe'snt sound pretty good on helix and really different from frfr speakers. Motly they sound to harsh, bright and noisy"

(quoted from ideascale).

 

My headphones by Sennheiser, AKG and even my 'nonames' (let's say they are all newer and maybe better ;) )

sound pretty good, not harsh, not too bright or noisy.

I guess it is easy to persist in saying something (like 'most headphones')

and furthermore to call for new features.

Check out better headphones, please.

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"Most headphones doe'snt sound pretty good on helix and really different from frfr speakers. Motly they sound to harsh, bright and noisy"

(quoted from ideascale).

 

My headphones by Sennheiser, AKG and even my 'nonames' (let's say they are all newer and maybe better ;) )

sound pretty good, not harsh, not too bright or noisy.

I guess it is easy to persist in saying something (like 'most headphones')

and furthermore to call for new features.

Check out better headphones, please.

 

My AKG K240s and my Sennheiser HD 380s both sound good, as do my IEMs (Shure SE215).

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I don't think the headphones are bad. It just doesn't work the way you wish. You will always have to adjuste your patches to your devices you're listening through. Doesn't matter if new or old.

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I have a pair of Sennheiser 380pro and wasn't happy about the sound with them, like OP sais: bright, harsh, etc... I've bought a set of Audio-Technica ATH-M40X and I found the sound more pleasing with them, not perfect but more enjoyable.

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a verry old Beyer DT990,

I have a (new) DT880, and sound great, but there is a difference (to better) in sound as you turn up the volume in Helix. Try it, but remenber that high volume is not good for your ears ;)  Anyway, I would like a personalized global eq for each output. If I remember correctly , the Kemper has so well.

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well - i'll try out some other heaphones, even if the old ones where not often used as i had the same problem with pod XT, pod hd and other amps from other brands.

Joust tought it would be normal that headphones and guitaramps does'nt match verry good without a specific EQing.

Bad, that i still listen about 19 KHz - a bit less would heplfull for electric guitars  :rolleyes:

Additionally, i will measure the impedances of the old ones. But generally, i'm not so bad in listening as i construct and build (and measure and listen) loudspeakers (HiFi) for about 35 jears.

I've already tried at different levels from whisper to ear killing, but the harsh character does'nt change. With a brutal highcut from 6 to 8 KHz it's ok for overdriven/distorted guitar but harms the clean/acoustic tones.

 

By the way - i think there is a reason why we can vote for ideas (or not) and why i asked for your opinion: So that the mayority decides what's most important for the mayority. For some it's the 198th amp model  or 5 amps with 6 IRs in the same path, for others a headphone EQ.

As said, i never was happy with guitar over headphones, except with the AX2 wich i modded with passive elements as 1st order lowpass in the headphone jack ;)

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But if recorded music sounds ok, or like he's used to, then his guitar should too, yes?

No...they're completely different tasks. A set of headphones that's optimized for casual music listening is not likely to have anything close to a flat response. There's often an absurd overabundance of low-end. A flat frequency response is what you need to faithfully reproduce what you're hearing through an FRFR speaker...and even then, there will still likely be some subtle tweaking needed.

 

And you can forget comparing a patch that's designed for an actual guitar amp to any set of headphones on the planet... it won't even be close to the same tone. Hell, it might not even sound like the same instrument. Apples and oranges isn't even a good enough analogy...its apples and cheeseburgers.

 

Every time you change the final output device, your tone is gonna be different to some degree. There's no way around that, other than creating patches for a specific use.

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BTW, did you follow

http://line6.com/support/topic/18774-helix-through-headphones/?hl=headphones

this discussion?

 

[...] As said, i never was happy with guitar over headphones, except with the AX2 wich i modded with passive elements [...]

Allow me to report some observations I have made:

I know a lot of  'HiFi guys' and they keep complaining frequently when they have to deal with linear monitoring or FRFR speakers.

By now I believe, that both needs indeed a different kind of hardware and listening (that can be trained like everything).

This is no 'esoteric superstition' or something - it has a lot to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

Maybe you got to get used to it, too...

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I don't think there's anything wrong with your headphones or the Helix.  Just the wrong headphones for the job.  I also have been disappointed to find that my new Audio Technicas (awesome otherwise) sound horrible when plugged into the Helix, Amplifi, or the back of my Mesa V-25 while my Sure in-ears sound great.  

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BTW, did you follow

http://line6.com/support/topic/18774-helix-through-headphones/?hl=headphones

this discussion?

 

Allow me to report some observations I have made:

I know a lot of  'HiFi guys' and they keep complaining frequently when they have to deal with linear monitoring or FRFR speakers.

By now I believe, that both needs indeed a different kind of hardware and listening (that can be trained like everything).

This is no 'esoteric superstition' or something - it has a lot to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics

Maybe you got to get used to it, too...

Helpful link, thank you!

 

I know that in the HiFi sector (worse - in the High End sector), there are different opinions about good sound. My aproach is simply a neutral (as far as possible) reproduction, in case of frfr monitors in the near field. I don't saeach a good sound as for a guitar amp, just a reproduction. Good sound should be made by guitar amps and acoustic engineers, not by speakers ;)

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Well - while searching for headphones wich would sound better with guitar on Helix, i found the Marshall Monitor wich should hae a descending frequency response starting at 8 KHz. Marshall delivers this Headphone with a Felt damping system, wich are in fact felt disks wich can be integrated  in the headphones.

So i took my AKG Hearo777 wireless headphones and experimented a bit with sheets  of 1,5 mm felt.

You know what? With two sheets per side, the tonal response of the Hearo 777 is pretty similar to my frfr monitors, this is really sounding great! Thanks to Marshall for this inspiration! Never touught that it could be so much better just with a simple trick. Maybe, i could work for other headphones to, depending on their preference for higher frequencies.

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The good old 'behind-the-curtain-effect', LOL...

As you are using old headphones, I suggest using sanitary headphone covers.

Will provide some damping, too ;)

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I use sennheiser HD380 PRO headphones when i make Home recording and I have no problem.

Very confortable and good Q/P rate.

 

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right, because i made the experience, that a good headphone for listening music is'nt always a good headphone for playing just guitar.

So it's difficult to choose one and tests mostly are made under HiFi aspects.

Wonder how they will react is i come with guitar and helix into the (far away) store to test :)

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I would say the flatter response the better. You can compare them on some websites:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/588290/headphone-graphs

 

I have Beyerdynamic DT880 pro phones. They're of not flat but flatish. And for the price very good, I think.
Guitar sounds also great through them. If I have adjusted a patch listening through them, I find that it also sounds good playing through speakers.

 

But yeah, bottom line is that you have to listen yourself and decide what you like.

 

And I've said flat a few times too many :)

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So I think the issue here is the OP is comparing headphones to a DT25, which is a guitar amp. Generally speaking, guitar speakers do not produce frequencies above 14 or 15 kHz, or at least not very well. But your headphones do. So of course it's going to sound less bright and less harsh out of a guitar speaker because it simply isn't producing those bright frequencies. I find that a hi cut on the cab model at 14 kHz eliminates the harshness in the headphones and overall makes the guitar tone sound more like a real amp in the first place (since, in all honesty, the cab models shouldn't be producing frequencies that high anyway). I suspect that is the issue, not the headphones. You could also try some cab IRs, I find that those need very little tweaking and sound good in both headphones and through an FRFR.

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So I think the issue here is the OP is comparing headphones to a DT25

Absolutly not, sorry for the misunderstanding!

 

I know that a guitar speaker never is frfr and that for a tone that sounds good to my ears out of a guitar amp, i have to tweak a lot to get a similar sound out of frfr systems wich good monitors and good headphones should provide.

This is a quick and dirty measurement of the DT25s speaker:

post-11061-0-09398000-1459932610_thumb.jpg

where good frfr monitors should show a flat line.

 

What i was looking for is a haedphone with about the same characterisics of my pretty flat coax monitors:

post-11061-0-26247900-1459932176_thumb.jpg

I know that they are not perfect, but for a measurement of a coax unter 5° angle not too bad.

 

 

Why? Because i want to have about the same sound when i play, when i record, what i'm hearing when listening the records and what other people hear when they play this records.

All this without tweaking , because other people with their  speakers have'nt the possibilities to tewak something to change the guitar sound without changing the other instruments on the record too.

I think in this way it works for most records,as they're made for other people with different equipment.

So i know that i need two different sounds, one for the DT and one for the rest. But for all this rest, the sound of the Helix should be about the same without tweaking, if it's headphones, monitors, PA or HiFi ;)

 

@Ka5par: Thanks for this helpful links!!  And no, you did'nt say to often "flat", as "flat" cannot be said often enough when it comes to sound reproduction and not sound forming ;)

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Hi,

 

i'm happy what comes out of my frfr monitors or my DT25. But what comes out out my (different) headphones lets my ears cry - harsh, bright and noisy. So i wonder if i've just the wrong headphones or if it's a general effect. In the second case, i would wish a EQ like the global EQ but dedicatet to the headphones out. As i switch often between Amp, FRFR and Headphones, this would be more usefull than always using the global WQ for that.

 

What do you think?

I added the idea add http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/EQ-dedicated-to-headphone-out/813724-23508

 

 

a verry old Beyer DT990, a AKG from about 2002 (don't know exactly what model - sounds ok on HiFi but cruel with guitar) wich are both half closed. Plus some different open  "walkman"-Headphones/inears, where a older Sony still is the best. Have to look this evening for the exact types.

 

 

Sony MDR-7506.  They are one of the few that can handle the Helix because of their design as monitors.  

 

Headphones in general are designed for post-production music, e.g. your stereo.  Some headsets (folks have mentioned a few) also sound good as monitors even if that wasn't what they were intended for specifically.  

 

Lets take a quick peek at the Beyer, because that is a really nice headset for listening to music.

 

The Beyer have a freq response of 5 hz to 35 Khz, that's a LOT of extra headroom on both ends.  You'd initially think that's a good thing, but the reality an instrument like a guitar creates harmonics and overtones.  They are actually outside the hearing range, and if your headsets are reacting to them, well that's just taking energy away from the frequencies you can actually hear.  When records are mastered, those overtones and harmonics out of the human hearing range are eliminated in the process to provide a crisp clean rich sound.

 

The Sony's I mentioned run from 10 hz to 20 Khz.  While still wide, not as wide as the Beyers and when you're dealing with distorted guitar, that's a good thing.

 

Then there's input.  The Sony's can handle 1000 mW, the Beyer's can only handle 100 mW.   Again, fine for a home stereo system cranked, but the Helix can put out some volume along with all those overtones and harmonics mentioned above.  While I doubt it's anywhere near 1000 mW, and likely not much more than 100 mW, the headroom of the headphones enables extra low lows and high highs to not really affect the overall sound where on the Beyer's if a overtone is pushing the limits of the headsets powerhandling, that could sound like crackly or just harsh.  

 

I'm not picking on the Beyer's and I'm not selling MDR-7506's.  I have used both.  They are both touted as professional monitoring headsets with fairly flat response curves supposedly.    While I'd never mix with headsets, The Beyer's are great for listening to final mixes looking for details that need to be addressed or nuances you want to ensure you hear.  If you want to listen to a recording the way the producer intended, use the Beyer. The MDR-7506's are great for checking monitoring during recording or monitoring in live situations where there is high room noise.  You can crank them loud enough to hurt your ears and they won't distort.  They also reproduce bass surprisingly well.  The extra power handling keeps them from getting muddy when listening to complicated (like distortion guitar) sources. 

 

Some other folks have mentioned other headsets they use.  I'm sure if you check the specs it will be apparent why they work well with the Helix.  Flat response, good frequency range but let dogs and snakes listen to their own tunes, and high power handling so harmonics and overtones that you can't hear anyway don't mess with the frequencies you can hear.

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I've followed some threads discussing FRFR-like headphones for Axe-FX and Kemper and the ones most recommended were (no ranking):

 

AKG K 240

AKG 712 Pro

AKG 812 Pro
Beyerdynamic DT880 pro

Sennheiser HD 25

Sennheiser HD 650
Sony MDR-7506
 
Maybe some good starting point.  :) 
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Absolutly not, sorry for the misunderstanding!

 

I know that a guitar speaker never is frfr and that for a tone that sounds good to my ears out of a guitar amp, i have to tweak a lot to get a similar sound out of frfr systems wich good monitors and good headphones should provide.

This is a quick and dirty measurement of the DT25s speaker:

DT25 near.jpg

where good frfr monitors should show a flat line.

 

What i was looking for is a haedphone with about the same characterisics of my pretty flat coax monitors:

Seas Coax Monitor.jpg

I know that they are not perfect, but for a measurement of a coax unter 5° angle not too bad.

 

 

Why? Because i want to have about the same sound when i play, when i record, what i'm hearing when listening the records and what other people hear when they play this records.

All this without tweaking , because other people with their speakers have'nt the possibilities to tewak something to change the guitar sound without changing the other instruments on the record too.

I think in this way it works for most records,as they're made for other people with different equipment.

So i know that i need two different sounds, one for the DT and one for the rest. But for all this rest, the sound of the Helix should be about the same without tweaking, if it's headphones, monitors, PA or HiFi ;)

 

@Ka5par: Thanks for this helpful links!! And no, you did'nt say to often "flat", as "flat" cannot be said often enough when it comes to sound reproduction and not sound forming ;)

I don't think you are understanding me. I am suggesting using the high cut as an always on thing, not as on only when using the headphones. As I said, if the goal is to get a realistic amp+cab tone out of the Helix, then it shouldn't be producing frequencies that high anyway, as you noticed in the graphs you posted. The fact that it does produce those is the problem. So you roll off on the cab block anything above 14 kHz to better mimic the response if a real cab, now not only does it sound less harsh in your headphones and on a FRFR, but it also sounds basically the same on your DT25 because it wasn't producing those high frequencies anyway. If the point is that Line 6 needs to fix the cabs, then I agree, but if the point is that there is something wrong with the headphone out, then I very much disagree. The problem in that case is the expectation.

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Just not to be misunderstood: The graphs above shown nothing produced by the Helix, they show just the frequency response of a frfr monitor and the speaker wich lives in the DT25.

Just to understand you right: If the Helix with amp and cab sim produces higher frequencies than it should (as the real amps and cabs and mics does'nt produce this frequencies), then  in my understanding the modelled blocks are'nt right. This would be a "bug" in the modelling, as for my understanding, with a cab sim, it should sound from a frfr system like the original. Where i'm wrong?

Perhaps i should try to make a IR from my DT cabinet with a measurement mic. With this IR, a frfr system should sound about like the DT Cabinet (just in tonal sense, not dynamics...). If it does not, there's something wrong.

 

Of course i could use the global EQ for this, but i would like to preserve ist for other corrections like room correction for a venue.

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Just not to be misunderstood: The graphs above shown nothing produced by the Helix, they show just the frequency response of a frfr monitor and the speaker wich lives in the DT25.

Just to understand you right: If the Helix with amp and cab sim produces higher frequencies than it should (as the real amps and cabs and mics does'nt produce this frequencies), then  in my understanding the modelled blocks are'nt right. This would be a "bug" in the modelling, as for my understanding, with a cab sim, it should sound from a frfr system like the original. Where i'm wrong?

Perhaps i should try to make a IR from my DT cabinet with a measurement mic. With this IR, a frfr system should sound about like the DT Cabinet (just in tonal sense, not dynamics...). If it does not, there's something wrong.

 

Of course i could use the global EQ for this, but i would like to preserve ist for other corrections like room correction for a venue.

 

That is exactly what I am suggesting, though I wouldn't call it a bug so much as it is just designed wrong. I am basing my assertions, like you, by looking at the frequency response charts available on the manufacturer's web sites, not on the actual output of the Helix. If you look at an average guitar speaker's response chart, it rolls off substantially starting at about 14 kHz. Similarly, a Shure SM-57 rolls of at around 15 kHz (the 57 model in the Helix is entirely too bright, IMO). So, theoretically, opening up a cab block and rolling the high cut down to about 14 kHz shouldn't make much difference, if any at all. But it does. I don't notice it as much on clean tones, since there aren't as many harmonics being produced, but on distorted tones it makes a HUGE difference. With the hi cut active, it starts to sound more like a real cab when listening through your headphones and/or FRFR. I highly recommend trying this out for yourself to see if that helps. It shouldn't make any difference to your tone when playing through the DT25, as the DT25 already rolls off those frequencies, but it should make headphone listening much better. Further, I would do that on the cab blocks and not with global EQ a) because you can and b) because now you can still use the global EQ for what it's actually meant to be used for, tweaking your sound to the room.

 

You could also try downloading Ownhammer's free IR sample, which is a Mesa 412, for comparison. I find that the IRs have a much more accurate frequency response (as they should), so they sound great on headphones and FRFRs without having to mess with high or low cuts. As a result, I have replaced all my cab blocks with IRs and now I can barely tell the difference between a real miked cab and my Helix tones.

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Just not to be misunderstood: The graphs above shown nothing produced by the Helix, they show just the frequency response of a frfr monitor and the speaker wich lives in the DT25.

Just to understand you right: If the Helix with amp and cab sim produces higher frequencies than it should (as the real amps and cabs and mics does'nt produce this frequencies), then  in my understanding the modelled blocks are'nt right. This would be a "bug" in the modelling, as for my understanding, with a cab sim, it should sound from a frfr system like the original. Where i'm wrong?

Perhaps i should try to make a IR from my DT cabinet with a measurement mic. With this IR, a frfr system should sound about like the DT Cabinet (just in tonal sense, not dynamics...). If it does not, there's something wrong.

 

Of course i could use the global EQ for this, but i would like to preserve ist for other corrections like room correction for a venue.

 

Not a bug, but just like in the real world you can pump a full range signal into a guitar cab and depending on a multitude of things from response, to power handling it will attempt to process those signals, and likely not produce a decent sound.

 

So, like in real life, when you choose a cab, you need to eq to that cab most of the time.  You will notice, all of the cabs have a high and low cut as well as the EQ's.  It's for a reason.  

 

If you are only playing guitar/bass you might just use the global EQ.

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perhaps i understood something completely wrong:

 

If an amp and cab sim does not output about the frequency response of the original cab, why then a cab sim?

I can't imagine that people who are genial enough to invent and build a device like the helix are not able to take frequencies out of the simulated/modeled signal wich were'nt in the original signal coming out of the real cab and mic. Where these frequencies come from? And why?

I understand a Cab sim or IR as a kind of filtercurve, so a preshaped EQ.

 

To follow your argumentation would mean, that the output signal wich comes from the factory presets would be good to send it thru a guitar speaker (wich one?) or whatelse but not thru a frfr system. It's hard to imagine.

In the other direction: For wich output device the factory presets with their cabsims are optimized?

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In the other direction: For wich output device the factory presets with their cabsims are optimized?

For the one it was created with...period. That's what a lot of folks don't seem to get. 1:1 continuity across multiple combinations of amp/cab, FRFR rigs, or headphones, using a different guitar than whomever sat down to create a particular preset, is simply impossible. Amp modelers are not Xerox machines.

 

No preset...on any device on earth...is going to sound exactly the same under all possible scenarios, regardless of what final output device happens to be.

 

Every box you plug an amp modeler into will color the tone in some fashion, and to a greater or lesser extent than the next one that you try. You could play the same Helix patch through two different FRFR speakers of the same make and model, with convective serial numbers, and still not end up with identical tones. Close? Probably...but there are no guarantees.

 

There are a multitude of reasons for this...which at this point, could fill a doctoral thesis.

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perhaps i understood something completely wrong:

 

If an amp and cab sim does not output about the frequency response of the original cab, why then a cab sim?

I can't imagine that people who are genial enough to think and buid a device like the helix are not able to take frequencies uot uf the simulated/modeled signal wich were'nt in the orgiginal signal coming out of the cab and mic. Where these frequencies come? And why?

 

To fellow your argumentation would mean, that the output signal wich comes from the factory presets would be good to send it thru a guitar speaker (wich one?) but not thru a frfr system. It's hard to imagine.

In the other direction: For wich output device the factory presets with their cabsims are optimized?

 

Truthfully I have no idea why they wouldn't build it more correctly. Perhaps they focused more of their energy on making the amps sound and feel right (which they do). Someone here suggested that Line 6 is actually using IRs for the cabs on the Helix, but I doubt that. I suspect that they attempted to model them more like they did with the amps, sort of piece by piece, but speakers have very complicated interactions that aren't even remotely linear so it's very hard to model them correctly. Maybe it's something they will work on in future updates.

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...If you look at an average guitar speaker's response chart, it rolls off substantially starting at about 14 kHz. ..

 

When I look at the frequency response charts on for instance the Celestion speaker website the frequency range is usually in the neighborhood of 75hz - 5000khz. The rolloff on gutiar speakers on the high end starts much sooner than 14khz, it actually starts at 5khz and rolls off steeply for almost every guitar speaker they make. The frequency response on Eminence speakers tend to be in that ballpark as well, at least for 12" speakers. I use Celestion as a sort of general rule of thumb as they make some of the most used and most musical guitar speakers out there (subject to personal preference of course). I find that by the time you get to 14khz direct through a full range speaker such as an FRFR or PA speaker you can have some real icepick high end going on. I usually cut in the 5-7khz range.

 

http://celestion.com/product/16/G12M_Greenback/

 

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/EJ_1240.pdf

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For the one it was created with...period. That's what a lot of folks don't seem to get. 1:1 continuity across multiple combinations of amp/cab, FRFR rigs, or headphones, using a different guitar than whomever sat down to create a particular preset, is simply impossible. Amp modelers are not Xerox machines.

 

No preset...on any device on earth...is going to sound exactly the same under all possible scenarios, regardless of what final output device happens to be.

 

Every box you plug an amp modeler into will color the tone in some fashion, and to a greater or lesser extent than the next one that you try. You could play the same Helix patch through two different FRFR speakers of the same make and model, with convective serial numbers, and still not end up with identical tones. Close? Probably...but there are no guarantees.

 

There are a multitude of reasons for this...which at this point, could fill a doctoral thesis.

i agree when we discuss about 1 or 2 db at a narrow frequency range. But it should be possible to come close to the original when reproduced with a quality frfr system. Of course there are differences, but just in detail. If not, it's not frfr but just marketing blah ;)

If it would not be like this, a certain sound would not keep it's characteristics played by different sources. I wonder how we would be able to listen Jor Bonamassa in TV (with TV-Speakers!!!) and later recognize his sound in the car and still later at home with a good HiFi chain?

 

So, if some people 're feeling the distorted sound to have to much treble and try to reduce by hicut and noone's complaining thad the sound seems too dull, it seems like line6 people use dull monitors to create the boxsims. Hard to believe, that they don't know a real frfr system ;)

So my question remains the same.

 

When I look at the frequency response charts on for instance the Celestion speaker website the frequency range is usually in the neighborhood of 75hz - 5000khz. The rolloff on gutiar speakers on the high end starts much sooner than 14khz, it actually starts at 5khz and rolls off steeply for almost every guitar speaker they make. I use Celestion as a sort of general rule of thumb as they make some of the most used and most musical guitar speakers out there (subject to personal preference of course). I find that by the time you get to 14khz direct through a full range speaker such as an FRFR or PA speaker you can have some real icepick high end going on.

 

http://celestion.com/product/16/G12M_Greenback/

abolutely - see my measurement above.

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