Not enough sound (output) from Alto TS112a for band practice?

[Haxasaurus]

So, I pose this as a question because after my research, I was under the impression that the Alto speaker would be more than loud enough for band practice.  We play rock/hard rock music and it can get quite loud trying to keep up with the drums.  During practice tonight I had to turn my Alto up as far as I could without getting the signal limit LED popping up and placed it right next to the drummer and it was still nowhere loud enough.  For reference, I used to use a 30W Peavey Vypyr and for practice I would turn it up to about 3 out of 13 and it was painfully loud.  Are the Altos (or FRFR speakers in general) just not built for this kind of use?  I'm afraid that even if I bought another for stereo output it still would barely be loud enough.

 

If not, should I go the cab route?  Only issue here is buying a reasonably priced power amp for the cab seems to be pretty difficult (also may be due to my lack of knowledge of them).

 

Just for anyone wondering, it sounds great at low volumes.  I just can't keep up in practice :(.

 

Thanks!

[cruisinon2]

I haven't used the Alto, but generally speaking, red-lining the master volume on anything powered is not a good idea. Start with the Alto's master at 12 o'clock. Then look at your patches...specifically the channel volumes, and the mixer block volumes. You may have those set lower than they need to be.

 

With my L2T, I set the master volume at noon, and leave it there. I never really touch the thing unless the knob got moved in transit. Level all your patch volumes, and use the POD's master to set your stage volume. With the L2T's volume fixed, I rarely get past 12-1 o'clock on the POD...sometimes don't even need that much.

 

Are you running the POD to the PA also, or relying only on the Alto? You'll get extra juice that way too.

[DarrellM5]

^ +1

 

My Alto TS110a can get really loud but, like cruisinon2 is talking about, a lot depends on how hot of a signal I'm sending the Alto in the first place.

[cruisinon2]

If not, should I go the cab route? Only issue here is buying a reasonably priced power amp for the cab seems to be pretty difficult (also may be due to my lack of knowledge of them).

 

Don't give up on FRFR yet...There's a learning curve. But just in case there's always this thing:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Electro-Harmonix-Magnum-Guitar-Power-Amplifier/dp/B003VCCUKM

 

Don't let the fact that it's the size of a stomp-box fool you...this thing is stupid loud, and it's $150.

[AlexKenivel]

I have that same Alto. I play in a cover band and an original metal band with a total of three guitar players. I've still never pushed my Master Volume on my Pod or my Alto past 12 o'clock and have been plenty loud.

 

Take a look at your presets and get as much volume from your channel volume as you can. I still don't even dime that and I'm plenty loud with headroom. Move the speaker away from the drummer and put it up on a stand.

[brue58ski]

Are you using the XLR's? If you are they are designed for mic level and have a fairly low output. If you are, try the 1/4' outputs and make sure your amp/line switch is on line. Watch out though, it will be significantly stronger. Start out with your powered speakers volume at 0.

[Haxasaurus]

Thanks for all the replies!  It really means a lot to me.

 

I haven't used the Alto, but generally speaking, red-lining the master volume on anything powered is not a good idea. Start with the Alto's master at 12 o'clock. Then look at your patches...specifically the channel volumes, and the mixer block volumes. You may have those set lower than they need to be.

With my L2T, I set the master volume at noon, and leave it there. I never really touch the thing unless the knob got moved in transit. Level all your patch volumes, and use the POD's master to set your stage volume. With the L2T's volume fixed, I rarely get past 12-1 o'clock on the POD...sometimes don't even need that much.

Are you running the POD to the PA also, or relying only on the Alto? You'll get extra juice that way too.

 

I'll try this when I get home and my roommates aren't asleep but what do you mean by "mixer block volumes?"  I'm aware of the master volume and the preset volume knobs, but I'm not sure what you are referring to.  FYI, I'm plugging straight into my Alto from my HD500X with a 1/4" cable.

 

I have that same Alto. I play in a cover band and an original metal band with a total of three guitar players. I've still never pushed my Master Volume on my Pod or my Alto past 12 o'clock and have been plenty loud.

Take a look at your presets and get as much volume from your channel volume as you can. I still don't even dime that and I'm plenty loud with headroom. Move the speaker away from the drummer and put it up on a stand.

 

This gives me a lot of hope.  I wonder if there may be something wrong with my speaker?  It was refurbished but I was made aware that it would be in total working order and it looks like it's in great condition.  Also, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I thought that the signal limiter that my Alto was showing meant that was its maximum output?  Would that not mean that increasing the volume on the pedal and lowering the volume on the speaker would have the same effect?  I may be completely wrong on this.  If so, what does the limiter actually mean?  

 

Are you using the XLR's? If you are they are designed for mic level and have a fairly low output. If you are, try the 1/4' outputs and make sure your amp/line switch is on line. Watch out though, it will be significantly stronger. Start out with your powered speakers volume at 0.

 

I'm using 1/4" outputs and have that switch set to line.  Thanks for checking, though.

[Haxasaurus]

Don't give up on FRFR yet...There's a learning curve. But just in case there's always this thing:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Electro-Harmonix-Magnum-Guitar-Power-Amplifier/dp/B003VCCUKM

 

Don't let the fact that it's the size of a stomp-box fool you...this thing is stupid loud, and it's $150.

 

Also, thanks a ton for that suggestion.  If I can't get things to work out, this seems much more promising of a product than anything else I've seen!  Could it power a 2x12 with 60W V30s I wonder?

[cruisinon2]

I'll try this when I get home and my roommates aren't asleep but what do you mean by "mixer block volumes?" I'm aware of the master volume and the preset volume knobs, but I'm not sure what you are referring to. FYI, I'm plugging straight into my Alto from my HD500X with a 1/4" cable.

 

On the display, the mixer block is the tiny icon immediately to the right of the amp model (unless you've inserted an FX block between them). Just toggle over it with the arrow key....there's a volume control in there, independent of the amp block's channel volume and the physical master volume knob.

[cruisinon2]

Also, thanks a ton for that suggestion. If I can't get things to work out, this seems much more promising of a product than anything else I've seen! Could it power a 2x12 with 60W V30s I wonder?

The output is labeled 8-16 ohms, so as long as the cab is rated at one or the other, you should be fine. There are 4 ohm cabs out there though, so just make sure yours isn't one of them.

[Haxasaurus]

On the display, the mixer block is the tiny icon immediately to the right of the amp model (unless you've inserted an FX block between them). Just toggle over it with the arrow key....there's a volume control in there, independent of the amp block's channel volume and the physical master volume knob.

 

Ahhhh gotcha.  I've never messed with those but I'll give it a look.  Thanks!

[DunedinDragon]

I have to agree with most of the responses here.  I suspect your Alto is plenty capable of keeping up.  And as long as you're plugged in via 1/4" you should be sending a good signal, so in all likelihood the problem is in the configuration of your patches.

 

Generally speaking I keep my HD500X master volume at about 50%, and the volume of my Yamaha DXR12 is at 50% as well.  A typical patch I might have for a heavier rock JC800 would be Drive around 50%, Bass - 40%, Mid - 70%, Treb - 50%, Presence - 30%, Volume - 70%.  With my mixer volume set at +4db on both channels I'm at an almost uncomfortable peak of 85 db as measured in SPL.  That should be more than enough to keep pace with everyone unless they're a bunch of garage band kids who haven't learned how manage their volumes correctly.  You may also want to check and make sure your Input1 in global settings is set to "Guitar" and Input2 is set to "Same" as that accounts for a somewhat minor difference in line signal level coming through the signal chain.

 

It may be that you've been keeping the amp model volume too low, but it appears to me that the amp model volume has been modeled in such a way to produce a more full sound at the higher range the way these amps used to work in the real world back in the day.  Crank them up along with the mixer volumes and you should have plenty of volume headroom left on your master volume control as well as on your speaker volume control.

[Haxasaurus]

Thanks for all the replies, I think I'm good now!  You guys were totally right.  I took the speaker down to about 9-10 o clock (12 o clock is when the "mic" volumes kick in...I shouldn't ever go that far) and set the mixer to +4db to both A and B.  After that I cranked the preset volume and master volume and it was louder than my previous amp and the limiter wasn't going off!  I am confused, though.  What actually triggers the limiter to go off and what does it mean?  I just assumed that since it was showing up before that my speaker just couldn't output any louder.  

 

Thanks so much, again!  After next band practice I'll update you guys on how it went, but I think I'm golden now.

[cruisinon2]

Thanks for all the replies, I think I'm good now! You guys were totally right. I took the speaker down to about 9-10 o clock (12 o clock is when the "mic" volumes kick in...I shouldn't ever go that far) and set the mixer to +4db to both A and B. After that I cranked the preset volume and master volume and it was louder than my previous amp and the limiter wasn't going off! I am confused, though. What actually triggers the limiter to go off and what does it mean? I just assumed that since it was showing up before that my speaker just couldn't output any louder.

 

Thanks so much, again! After next band practice I'll update you guys on how it went, but I think I'm golden now.

The limiter circuit is supposed to prevent you from blowing a speaker by lowering the volume of the louder peaks in the signal, those above a set threshold...similar to what a compressor does. It helps, but you can still destroy things. You had the master volume dimed out...that will push the limit of any speaker. Never a good idea. Run like that long enough, and eventually you'll blow a gasket.

[DunedinDragon]

Thanks for all the replies, I think I'm good now!  You guys were totally right.  I took the speaker down to about 9-10 o clock (12 o clock is when the "mic" volumes kick in...I shouldn't ever go that far) and set the mixer to +4db to both A and B.  After that I cranked the preset volume and master volume and it was louder than my previous amp and the limiter wasn't going off!  I am confused, though.  What actually triggers the limiter to go off and what does it mean?  I just assumed that since it was showing up before that my speaker just couldn't output any louder.  

 

Thanks so much, again!  After next band practice I'll update you guys on how it went, but I think I'm golden now.

 

Just a couple of points to consider here.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "mic" volumes kicking in, but normally you're better off leaving the extra headroom for adjustment on the HD500X master volume control than to have the master volume maxed out.  That way if you need to make an adjustment to your overall volume it's right there on the HD500X rather than reaching around to the back of the speaker.  It's the same volume level either way, just easier to adjust.

 

You should be relatively safe from triggering the speaker limiter at 50% volume setting on the speaker.  That leaves plenty of capacity, and then lower the master volume on the POD to match up with the volume level of the band.  Lowering the master volume on the POD has no effect  on the patch itself.

 

The limiter is simply a digital algorithm built into the speaker's DSL circuit that monitors the outgoing signal and, when it senses anything that would exceed the capacity of the speaker, chops off the peaks.  This is generally referred to as "clipping" and causes the signal to sound a bit muffled when it happens.  I pretty much keep all powered speakers at 50% which leaves more than enough headroom before clipping occurs.  On very high quality powered speakers like line array systems I have pushed those limits up as far as 65%, but only if I know that signal level that's being sent to it is being kept relatively low as in the case of a master fader on a mixing board.

[jeremybnz]

I have to agree with most of the responses here.  I suspect your Alto is plenty capable of keeping up.  And as long as you're plugged in via 1/4" you should be sending a good signal, so in all likelihood the problem is in the configuration of your patches.

 

Generally speaking I keep my HD500X master volume at about 50%, and the volume of my Yamaha DXR12 is at 50% as well.  A typical patch I might have for a heavier rock JC800 would be Drive around 50%, Bass - 40%, Mid - 70%, Treb - 50%, Presence - 30%, Volume - 70%.  With my mixer volume set at +4db on both channels I'm at an almost uncomfortable peak of 85 db as measured in SPL.  That should be more than enough to keep pace with everyone unless they're a bunch of garage band kids who haven't learned how manage their volumes correctly.  You may also want to check and make sure your Input1 in global settings is set to "Guitar" and Input2 is set to "Same" as that accounts for a somewhat minor difference in line signal level coming through the signal chain.

 

It may be that you've been keeping the amp model volume too low, but it appears to me that the amp model volume has been modeled in such a way to produce a more full sound at the higher range the way these amps used to work in the real world back in the day.  Crank them up along with the mixer volumes and you should have plenty of volume headroom left on your master volume control as well as on your speaker volume control.

 

^this. I run a Stagesource L2T and we're a LOUD band, master at half on that and half on the HD :)

[cruisinon2]

^this. I run a Stagesource L2T and we're a LOUD band, master at half on that and half on the HD :)

Yup...any more than that and you start getting phone calls from the guys who run the seismographs at Cal Tech...;)

[pianoguyy]

Hey, I know guys that use full stacks for bedroom practice. 

 

So, it is totally possible that your Alto's just are not loud enough for you. 

[CipherHost]

Just a couple of points to consider here.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "mic" volumes kicking in

 

I think he is referring to volume knob on the Alto. You should only turn the volume up to 50% (12 o'clock) when plugging in a line level signal to the Alto. 

[Smashcraaft]

I think he is referring to volume knob on the Alto. You should only turn the volume up to 50% (12 o'clock) when plugging in a line level signal to the Alto.

 

Most speakers range goes from line -12 to 12 dB mic and 12 o'clock is 0 dB.

normally you're better off leaving the extra headroom for adjustment on the HD500X master volume control than to have the master volume maxed out.  That way if you need to make an adjustment to your overall volume it's right there on the HD500X rather than reaching around to the back of the speaker.  It's the same volume level either way, just easier to adjust.

Get yourself a 15 USD guitar volume pedal and plug it 1/4" out > patchcable > volume pedal > patchcable > line in Alto.

 

This way you can control your level smooth and individual.

Set the Alto at noon and your POD to max.

That give you enough headroom for kicking nuts of your band mates.

[jeremybnz]

Yup...any more than that and you start getting phone calls from the guys who run the seismographs at Cal Tech... ;)

 

LOL