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willsmythe37

Help setting up 4CM metal tone

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Hello all,

 

I've had the helix floorboard for a week and it's seen two practices with my band. I'm still not quiete happy with the tone in getting.

 

I want to run it into my 2x12 combo amp via 4CM.

 

As seems to be the general consensus, I have been using a engl pre-amp block before the send, which is being connected to the pre-amp in of The amp. No cab sims etc

 

Low freq's aren't my problem... They can be easily cut, or notched out to taste.

My problem is the high frequencies.

 

I use the global EQ applied and with the visual help of the PC editor have set it to gradually roll off from 1kHz (-.05fb) to 8kHz(-7db)

 

Even like this, the highs are pushing through so loudly, they're super shrill and kill the waters in my ear drums. I've tried just notchin out certain areas of the frequency range but it winds up sounding super unnatural. Emphasis seems to be around pick attack right the way from 800hz<

 

I do run a tube screamer before the pre-amp block for extra gain to help with pinch harmonics. The gain level is set at 2.0 so only really there for character. (The Minotaur was toooo shrill!)

 

1/4 jacks are set to instrument level.

 

 

Does anyone have any experience running into this problem and how did you overcome it?

 

I have my amp at home with me and the missus has given some permission to "rag it". So hopefully I can get this problem taken care of by the end of play

 

I'm almost at an ends, any little pearls of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

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You're using a Engl preamp block from the Helix and then running into the front of the real amp?

I thought the general idea of 4cm was to put some FX like wah/boosts first then send to the real amp to use it's preamp - not use Helix amp blocks.

 

I suppose you could think of an amp block as a distortion pedal - but I'd go easy on the settings if I was running that into a real high gain amp.

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Hi Rickster,

 

Does this seem wrong to you?

Are you suggesting that using the pre-amp block before the Helix 'send and return' is incorrect?

 

I was looking to include the Amp-sim in the signal chain.

 

Maybe you're right... I could try dropping the same block in before the regular out is fed to the power tubes.

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I've got my 4cm set up so that I either use a real preamp in the Helix send/return,  or instead use a Helix amp block which then just feeds straight into the amps's FX return and straight to the power tubes.  

 

I've been setting up a footswitch on some patches so that I can use it like a 2 channel amp - turning on the the FX loop to connect the real preamp and turning off the Helix amp block and vice verse.

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Thanks for the reply Rickster.

I think the reason I initially used pre-amp blocks before the send/return was because the gain staging seemed to make sense.

Just tried a regular amp block with the same model/similar settings and had to drop the master/ch volume right down to a similar level. (Just chopping and changing between each block by bypassing one at a time)

Found waaayyyyy more bottom end doing it your way.

Also stumbled upon the guitar impedence setting in the Global settings.
It was set to auto as standard...
Auto seems to just be the maximum setting available.
Does this need to be adjusted too?

The below EQ curve seems to have helped a lot

Capture.jpg
 

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I've been tinkering some more.

Decided that the mid frequency bump needed to be brought back, more towards 600-800hz on my global EQ.

Will have to wait till next Saturday for rehearsals. May find I have to bring the low cut in further... but hopefully it's fine.

The persistence of the clicky-click sound appears to be a characteristic of the amp model itself so might explain why I can't dial it out easily.

Last thing to do is to check my patch levels are right... That will have to wait until next week also.

I have a feeling I won't be getting much closer that this.

Definitely happier than before.

Cheers

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- You're using a Engl preamp block from the Helix and then running into the front of the real amp?

Nah, Clean of a 2x12 Hot Rod Deville combo.

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When using 4CM, you would generally not use any amp model, preamp model, speaker model or speaker IR in Helix. Rather Helix is providing front of the amp effects, those that go before amp tone controls and distortion (compressor, wah, phasor, Uni-Vibe, distortion) into your guitar amp. Then you come out of the preamp output/send from your guitar amp back into Helix for after the amp effects which are often stereo (chorus, delays, reverb). Then back into the effects return of your guitar amp with provides the power amp and speakers.

 

If you used an amp or preamp model in front of you guitar amp preamp, you'd have two amps in series. This can work and has been done in the past - sometimes called "Jump" settings. However, its putting two sets of tone controls one after the other, both providing a lot of treble boost to provide voicing for an electric guitar. That could be a bit much.

 

If you're looking for a lot of distortion, you might have better luck gain staging a number of distortion blocks in Helix before going to your guitar amp input, and/or using channel switching in your amp if it has it and you like its preamp distortion tone. 

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amsdenj,

I just gave your suggestion a shot but unfortunately couldn't reproduce a full bodied metal tone using just the distortion stomps alone.

The standard Amp block with an obscene amount of global EQ applied seemed to get closer to what I'm looking for.

I was just talking to a fella on the Helix Facebook group and he says he uses cab sims too..... may be a more realistic way around my current global EQ settings.

----

I'm going to take a couple of photo's of the current global EQ settings, so I can revert back to them at rehearsals next week.

Then I'll try and dial in Amp and Cab sims together with their own unique Global EQ.

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If 4CM isn't working for you, it might be your guitar amp or its settings. You could try using Helix as the whole front end connecting Helix output to your amp's effect returns. Then pick and preamp model in Helix that's closer to what you're looking for. You could also try two amps in parallel with one set cleaner to give the punch and another set to be distorted to get the sustain. Beware of too much sag for metal. That can take the punch out of your guitar.

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Hello all,

 

I've had the helix floorboard for a week and it's seen two practices with my band. I'm still not quiete happy with the tone in getting.

 

I want to run it into my 2x12 combo amp via 4CM.

 

As seems to be the general consensus, I have been using a engl pre-amp block before the send, which is being connected to the pre-amp in of The amp. No cab sims etc

 

Low freq's aren't my problem... They can be easily cut, or notched out to taste.

My problem is the high frequencies.

 

I use the global EQ applied and with the visual help of the PC editor have set it to gradually roll off from 1kHz (-.05fb) to 8kHz(-7db)

 

Even like this, the highs are pushing through so loudly, they're super shrill and kill the waters in my ear drums. I've tried just notchin out certain areas of the frequency range but it winds up sounding super unnatural. Emphasis seems to be around pick attack right the way from 800hz<

 

I do run a tube screamer before the pre-amp block for extra gain to help with pinch harmonics. The gain level is set at 2.0 so only really there for character. (The Minotaur was toooo shrill!)

 

1/4 jacks are set to instrument level.

 

 

Does anyone have any experience running into this problem and how did you overcome it?

 

I have my amp at home with me and the missus has given some permission to "rag it". So hopefully I can get this problem taken care of by the end of play

 

I'm almost at an ends, any little pearls of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

 

I am not using the 4CM method so this may not apply but rather than a gradual roll off of the highs as you describe I generally use a high cut at somewhere between 5-8khz either in the cab sim or after it to dramatically cut everything above that frequency range. 

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If 4CM isn't working for you, it might be your guitar amp or its settings. You could try using Helix as the whole front end connecting Helix output to your amp's effect returns.

I was about to post the same suggestion.

 

As far as I'm aware the Fender 2x12 Hot Rod Deville combo is not a high gain "metal" amp, so if that is the sound you want I would be using the Helix for everything before the "real" power amp and speakers of the combo.

 

Regarding whether to use pre amp models only on the Helix or full amp models and cab sims - experiment and find out what works best with your gear at gig volume.

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Glad you're having a bit more luck now Willsmythe!

 

Yes I agree with the folks above -  with a Fender amp you might as well just feed the Helix into the FX return for getting metal tones.

I'd only bother with 4cm if you like the clean and breakup sounds the fender preamp makes and want to use those sometimes.

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Had a chance to have another fiddle last night with my settings on the Helix.

I thought I might put together a little experiment and post my findings.

I ran together a long sequence of different preset configurations where, the start and end of the signal chain was the same... just mixing and matching different pre-amp blocks, amp blocks, Stock Cabs and IR's. These were placed in differentiating positions and I adjusted the gain staging to check everything was consistent.
The IR I used was one of the free Ownhammer ones. I believe it was a 121 Ribbon mic as I wanted to get a spot of the boomy low mids that rumble through at live shows.
The stock cab in comparison (4x12 V60), sounds more rounded and flatter. Off hand, I can't remember the exact settings of mic positioning and what not.
Amp-wise I was using the Angl Simulation. It has quiet lot of pick attack which really cuts through especially when shredding in the upper register.
Actual combo settings, Bass [7], Mid [5], High [5], Presence [4]

The standard stuff, identical across all the different patches.

At the start, Input gate [-50dB], High/low cut filter [70hz-12kHz], Compressor [-22dB 4:1 rat], Scream 808 [2.0, 5.0, 8.0}- >>>>

->>>>> At the end, High/low cut filter [100Hz-7.5kHz], Room reverb (low, but present in the mix) 


I'll list some of the blocks that were positioned in between and you'll get the picture.

Amp - Cab - Send - Return
Amp - IR - Send - Return
Amp - Send - Return - Cab
Amp - Send - Return - IR
Send - Return - Amp - Cab
Send - Return - Amp - IR

The same permutations were used with the Pre-Amp blocks too, just to humour the difference and for knowing in the future.

Conclusion

Cutting a long story short.
Don't put amp and cab blocks after the S/R. Surprisingly enough, what comes back in from the real amps pre-amp is a tad noisy and shrill. Despite the cab/IR block.
This is likely down to the position of the Scream 808 being situated before the send (perhaps it would be better situated after the send too?) 
This'll be something I'll have to check out again I think.

More ideal results came from both full Amp block and Cab/IR positioned before the send.
Or with the Amp before and the Cab/IR situated after the return.

The main differences being:

[Amp - Cab/IR - Send] More controlled highs and a flatter frequency representation of the Cab/IR. This is probably subject to the Low/Mid/High/Presence controls on my Combo amp.

[Amp - Send - Cab/IR] The colour of the Cab/IR was way more intact instead of it coming through rather flat. Worrying highs were cutting in though and some frequencies were over accentuated. This may be softened with a High/Low cut before the send too or selecting a alternative IR that isn't as Low mid heavy.

 

This was a fun little experiment. I did this for my own piece of mind to get to understand the audible differences in the signal chain. I'm sure plenty of you will want to weigh-in on the theoretical differences. Once again not saying what is right and wrong. Perhaps it will help others using 4CM method that are struggling to get exactly what they want when subbing in a different amp model.

Going back to early experiences. I had used just the Pre-amp/Amp blocks on their own without any Cab/IR simulation. I found I had to drastically Global EQ the absolute **** out of it to get closer to the sound I was looking for. Despite this not being quiet right, I did learn what sort of curve I was looking for ideally. It's a shame there isn't an EQ block within the helix that has the very same parameters as the global EQ. Either way, all of the above experiments were performed without any Global EQ, the Cab/IR sim essentially behaving as the global EQ would within the signal chain itself.

Things still to do:
- Re-do the Amp/Cab post send tests with the distortion pedal situated directly after the send instead.
- Try using a more balanced IR post send, with the Amp pre-send.

Amp and Cab pre-send is what I'll take to practice with me on Saturday. Will see how it meshes with the band mix at rehearsals.
Any minor EQ adjustments can probably be dropped in after the Cab block from there.

 

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Glad you're having a bit more luck now Willsmythe!

 

Yes I agree with the folks above -  with a Fender amp you might as well just feed the Helix into the FX return for getting metal tones.

I'd only bother with 4cm if you like the clean and breakup sounds the fender preamp makes and want to use those sometimes.

Side note.

 

I haven't tried running directly into the Power amp-in yet.

Aside from liking the ability to still use the tone-stack, part of me feels that I should use the pre-amp section of the 950£ guitar amp because it is available.

 

I will try a patch where the send and return is skipped, fed directly into the Power amp-in. I'm wondering if it's going to make a great deal of difference though.

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What you are calling "tone stacking" does not make sense to me as proven by having to use EQ to correct problems.  I'm not knocking you for trying but what you are basically doing is like plugging into an ENGL head and taking the FX send our of that head and directly into the input of your Fender combo.  

 

Do you like any of the sounds you get out of your Fender combo all by itself?  If yes, then use the 4CM when you want to use those sounds.

Otherwise go straight into the FX return and use the Helix for the Pre-amp models.  Your Combo already has a power amp and speakers.  There is no reason to duplicate that sound in the Helix and have to use EQ to correct problems.  

 

I am a big proponent of not using EQ unless it's an absolute must and then, using only as sparely as possible.  You should be able to correct the problems somewhere else.  Most engineers would change speakers, mic placement, etc first and only use EQ when all else has failed or for a very specific application.

 

In the end if what you are doing is not working you may need a different amp or FRFR to power your Helix.  Fender combos are normally open back cabinets and for metal tones most people prefer closed back.  The speakers are also most likely intended to produce clean tones, not the kinds of tones you are trying to create.

 

Just my two cents.  If what you are doing works, more power to you.

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Like most of the guys have already mentioned, the fender power amp and its physical speakers are very different than what you might want for an engl pre amp or a high gain, metal tone.  In most cases I prefer using full amp models (pre and power) into physical power amps.  Particularly for helping the high gain sounds coming from fender style combo amps, I'll even use cabinet or IR blocks.  I know its redundant, or theres coloration on top of coloration, but sometimes I've found some more usable tones that way.

 

Don't forget though that if you are using it in 4 cable method, even if you place an amp model so it only hits the power amp section of the physical amp, you are still running through the physical pre-amp before you run into the modeled amp.  You can bypass that with some switchable routing, but its sometime to keep in mind.

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What you are calling "tone stacking" does not make sense to me as proven by having to use EQ to correct problems.  I'm not knocking you for trying but what you are basically doing is like plugging into an ENGL head and taking the FX send our of that head and directly into the input of your Fender combo.  

 

Do you like any of the sounds you get out of your Fender combo all by itself?  If yes, then use the 4CM when you want to use those sounds.

Otherwise go straight into the FX return and use the Helix for the Pre-amp models.  Your Combo already has a power amp and speakers.  There is no reason to duplicate that sound in the Helix and have to use EQ to correct problems.  

 

I am a big proponent of not using EQ unless it's an absolute must and then, using only as sparely as possible.  You should be able to correct the problems somewhere else.  Most engineers would change speakers, mic placement, etc first and only use EQ when all else has failed or for a very specific application.

 

In the end if what you are doing is not working you may need a different amp or FRFR to power your Helix.  Fender combos are normally open back cabinets and for metal tones most people prefer closed back.  The speakers are also most likely intended to produce clean tones, not the kinds of tones you are trying to create.

 

Just my two cents.  If what you are doing works, more power to you.

 

 

Like most of the guys have already mentioned, the fender power amp and its physical speakers are very different than what you might want for an engl pre amp or a high gain, metal tone.  In most cases I prefer using full amp models (pre and power) into physical power amps.  Particularly for helping the high gain sounds coming from fender style combo amps, I'll even use cabinet or IR blocks.  I know its redundant, or theres coloration on top of coloration, but sometimes I've found some more usable tones that way.

 

Don't forget though that if you are using it in 4 cable method, even if you place an amp model so it only hits the power amp section of the physical amp, you are still running through the physical pre-amp before you run into the modeled amp.  You can bypass that with some switchable routing, but its sometime to keep in mind.

Thanks guys.

 

I suppose the one part of my little experiment that I left out was skipping the power amp tubes entirely.

I have the afternoon off today and the missus isn't home till late. I intend to give the pre-amp bypass method a shot then run comparisons to see which I prefer.

 

It is sounding a lot better already despite running an Amp and IR into the Combo's pre-amp. Could be down to a pretty transparent pre-amp in the combo?

 

I guess it's just one of those things I took for granted about the Pod XT live. I used to just switch the settings over to combo-front/studio direct and I could use the same tones at home for recording, as at practice.

 

Looking forward to another session of tinkering this afternoon ;)

 

 

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Like most of the guys have already mentioned, the fender power amp and its physical speakers are very different than what you might want for an engl pre amp or a high gain, metal tone.  In most cases I prefer using full amp models (pre and power) into physical power amps.  Particularly for helping the high gain sounds coming from fender style combo amps, I'll even use cabinet or IR blocks.  I know its redundant, or theres coloration on top of coloration, but sometimes I've found some more usable tones that way.

 

Don't forget though that if you are using it in 4 cable method, even if you place an amp model so it only hits the power amp section of the physical amp, you are still running through the physical pre-amp before you run into the modeled amp.  You can bypass that with some switchable routing, but its sometime to keep in mind.

 

 

Glad you're having a bit more luck now Willsmythe!

 

Yes I agree with the folks above -  with a Fender amp you might as well just feed the Helix into the FX return for getting metal tones.

I'd only bother with 4cm if you like the clean and breakup sounds the fender preamp makes and want to use those sometimes.

 

 

If 4CM isn't working for you, it might be your guitar amp or its settings. You could try using Helix as the whole front end connecting Helix output to your amp's effect returns. Then pick and preamp model in Helix that's closer to what you're looking for. You could also try two amps in parallel with one set cleaner to give the punch and another set to be distorted to get the sustain. Beware of too much sag for metal. That can take the punch out of your guitar.

 

 

When using 4CM, you would generally not use any amp model, preamp model, speaker model or speaker IR in Helix. Rather Helix is providing front of the amp effects, those that go before amp tone controls and distortion (compressor, wah, phasor, Uni-Vibe, distortion) into your guitar amp. Then you come out of the preamp output/send from your guitar amp back into Helix for after the amp effects which are often stereo (chorus, delays, reverb). Then back into the effects return of your guitar amp with provides the power amp and speakers.

 

If you used an amp or preamp model in front of you guitar amp preamp, you'd have two amps in series. This can work and has been done in the past - sometimes called "Jump" settings. However, its putting two sets of tone controls one after the other, both providing a lot of treble boost to provide voicing for an electric guitar. That could be a bit much.

 

If you're looking for a lot of distortion, you might have better luck gain staging a number of distortion blocks in Helix before going to your guitar amp input, and/or using channel switching in your amp if it has it and you like its preamp distortion tone. 

Gave 2CM "Power amp in" a shot last night and was pleasantly surprised by the results.

 

I suppose the reason I was struggling was because the EQ on the combo pre-amp was colouring the EQ in a contrasting way to that of the Amp sims EQ in the Helix is doing.

It definitely simplifies the process running into it like that as I was fighting an uphill battle trying to emphasize certain frequencies that were missing, whilst reducing over amplified ones.

 

Only issue with that method is, the 'power amp in' literally rag's the amp at max volume 24/7. In my own mind, I'd like to have the Helix Volume Switch set to max. But doing this, meant I had to lower channel volume on the Amp sims in my patches down to 2.5-3.0 (My Fender Combo is damn loud!)

 

I found I could keep the same IR I had been using which was helpful. It was almost behaving like a global EQ in itself!

 

I have experimented with using the Pre-Amp blocks in the past, which I suppose would be the correct block to use (versus the Amp Block). In the past I found they had way less in the bottom end department and also the feel was totally different, but that was before I had routed direct into the Power Amp Tubes.

That may be the next step to be honest and I'm sure is the reason I have the massive volume difference. I suppose it will mean I don't have to be shy when using the tone controls within the helix amp. I could run the bass at 10 and it'll likely maintain it's playability.

 

Getting closer guys. Thanks for all the wise words.

 

Pre-Amp blocks to test next!

 

 

 

Side note: I think the soaring wailing highs I have been trying to dial out are a characteristic of the Angl simulation itself. I recorded my amp through a SM58 into a DAW so I could analyse the signal. As I suspected, those soaring notes range from 800Hz right the way up to 8Khz. Rules of "fundamental frequencies" I suspect.

Decided to chop out the Angl for the PV Panama. In contrast to previous efforts, took no time at all and the "resonance" parameter on the last page, literally made my day when it came to the "guttural" bass feeling I was looking for.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah! Glad you're happier with the tones now :)

 

 

Only issue with that method is, the 'power amp in' literally rag's the amp at max volume 24/7. In my own mind, I'd like to have the Helix Volume Switch set to max. But doing this, meant I had to lower channel volume on the Amp sims in my patches down to 2.5-3.0 (My Fender Combo is damn loud!)
 

 

I would strongly recommend using the Helix volume knob as it is intended - so you can turn your volume down when you want to practice and turn it up when you're gigging.   Turning it down on the amp block itself has no actual difference to turning it down on the main volume anyway - you are not achieving anything except making life hard for yourself!

 

You can choose for the volume knob just work on either the 1/4in jacks or the XLR (or Digital or Multi) - go to "Global Settings" and scroll across to page 3.

 

I have my vol knob set to 1/4in so that I can adjust my stage amp volume from the Helix, but the XLRs are not affected so my level in the PA remains constant.

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Hi. Can you explain what "2CM "Power amp in" " means.

Thanks

Hey.

 

Set up a patch as you normally wish to within the Helix.

 

(Allegedly use a pre-amp block, not amp)

 

Followed by a Cab/IR of your choice.

 

Then just connect your guitar up to the Helix.

The Helix (regular 1/4" out) to the 'Power amp-in"

(Also called 'effects return')

(Don't connect up to the front of the amp, like you normally do)

 

Check your global settings so that the 1/4" outs are set to instrument level.

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willsmythe37 - My only suggestion other that what you have above is to not use the cab sims. You already have a cab and speakers.  At least try it first before adding them.  

 

 

Also, You can still use the 4CM.  I use 4CM for my main crunch and metal sounds because I have a 5150 III but for Clean sounds I bypass the loop on the Helix and use a Fender Clean preamp in the Helix.  One button switches off the loop and on the amp sim.

 

Like I mentioned before, if you like any of the sounds you get from the amp that is what 4CM is for.

 

Also, I keep my amp volume knobs on 4 (11 o'clock) which is very loud and I turn the master volume on the Helix to about 12 o'clock.  That gives me plenty of room to go louder if I need to.  The only reason for the Master Vol dimed is to reduce extra noise, but with the Helix it's not something I worry about.

 

I set the amp sim level for my clean sounds based on the volume of my amp.  That way they are always equaled out when changing from clean to crunch etc.  and the Master volume on the Helix is my overall volume.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

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willsmythe37 - My only suggestion other that what you have above is to not use the cab sims. You already have a cab and speakers.  At least try it first before adding them.  

 

 

Also, You can still use the 4CM.  I use 4CM for my main crunch and metal sounds because I have a 5150 III but for Clean sounds I bypass the loop on the Helix and use a Fender Clean preamp in the Helix.  One button switches off the loop and on the amp sim.

 

Like I mentioned before, if you like any of the sounds you get from the amp that is what 4CM is for.

 

Also, I keep my amp volume knobs on 4 (11 o'clock) which is very loud and I turn the master volume on the Helix to about 12 o'clock.  That gives me plenty of room to go louder if I need to.  The only reason for the Master Vol dimed is to reduce extra noise, but with the Helix it's not something I worry about.

 

I set the amp sim level for my clean sounds based on the volume of my amp.  That way they are always equaled out when changing from clean to crunch etc.  and the Master volume on the Helix is my overall volume.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Cheers for the heads up there pal.

 

I'll try and adjust to using 12 o'clock on the Helix master volume as standard.

 

I'll setup some comparative patches tonight using the pre-amps instead, with/without cab/IR's and run them all as a comparison at practice tomorrow morning.

 

It may not be correct methodology but I've found that using an IR is almost an EQ shortcut. With the right one, it has helped get the right kind of sounds, sooner.

 

Tomorrow I'll have:

 

6 set's of, 4 presets to try.

 

a) Amp Angl and IR

b) Amp PV and IR

c) Pre Angl only

d) Pre Angl and IR

e) Pre PV only

f) Pre PV and IR

 

Will see how it goes. I'll surely be able to run with one of them ;)

 

Consider this thread "complete".

 

Thanks again for the help everyone. 

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