Connecting a Chapman Stick with a DI Box?

[Ka5par]

I use a Chapman Stick with active pickups, but low output with Helix:

http://www.stick.com/instruments/pickups/actv2/

 

For now I've plugged the stereo output of the instrument to the returns of Helix.

This doesn't work well for recording, because I can't record the direct unaffected signal from the returns through USB.

 

I've avoided the aux and guitar inputs because I couldn't match the levels / sound between them.

 

So now I have looked into getting an active DI box for connecting one output of the Stick to the mic input (using phantom power to avoid a power supply).

 

Is this possible? And is it possible to match the mic and guitar inputs with the DI box?

 

Would any of these be up for the job?

 

Palmer Pan 02:

http://www.palmer-germany.com/pro/en/PAN-02-DI-Box-active-PAN02.htm

 

 

Palmer Pan 02 pro:

http://www.palmer-germany.com/pro/en/PAN-02-PRO-DI-Box-active-PAN02PRO.htm

Radial Stage Bug SB-1:

http://www.radialeng.com/pdfs/StageBug-SB-1-Acoustic-UserGuide.pdf

Radial Pro48:

http://www.radialeng.com/pdfs/manual-pro48.pdf

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ricksteruk]

 

I've avoided the aux and guitar inputs because I couldn't match the levels / sound between them.

 

So now I have looked into getting an active DI box for connecting one output of the Stick to the mic input (using phantom power to avoid a power supply).

 

Is this possible? And is it possible to match the mic and guitar inputs with the DI box?

 

 

 

 

So you've found tonal differences between the aux and guitar inputs?  I wonder if it's because of the input impedance... I seem to remember the aux has a 10 Meg impedance, but the max the (variable) guitar can do is 1 Meg.

 

You might find that the mic input with DI box is or can be made to sound similar to one of the guitar or aux ins - however it might not!!  I would borrow a DI box from someone and try it if I were you (or try at a shop) - IMO most active DI boxes work well these days and even the cheap ones sound pretty good.

[Ka5par]

So you've found tonal differences between the aux and guitar inputs?  I wonder if it's because of the input impedance... I seem to remember the aux has a 10 Meg impedance, but the max the (variable) guitar can do is 1 Meg.

 

You might find that the mic input with DI box is or can be made to sound similar to one of the guitar or aux ins - however it might not!!  I would borrow a DI box from someone and try it if I were you (or try at a shop) - IMO most active DI boxes work well these days and even the cheap ones sound pretty good.

 

I'm not quite sure about the tonal differences because of the level difference. I've not yet recorded and level matched the inputs to fully test this.

I was also worried about if the levels could be matched without clipping the mic input at the same time. There seem to be some level switches on the DI-s, but I don't know if they drop the level too much.

 

Now to find someone with an active DI.

[rickthestick]

I use a Stick also, with passive pickups. I had Emmitt double wind them for a beefier sound and I have a Seymour Duncan Hot Rail on the melody side, switchable with the stock pickup and I have no problem getting enough gain on the normal inputs. I would think your active pickups would give you more than enough level on the guitar and auxiliary inputs. Can you describe in a little more detail what you are experiencing?

[Ka5par]

I use a Stick also, with passive pickups. I had Emmitt double wind them for a beefier sound and I have a Seymour Duncan Hot Rail on the melody side, switchable with the stock pickup and I have no problem getting enough gain on the normal inputs. I would think your active pickups would give you more than enough level on the guitar and auxiliary inputs. Can you describe in a little more detail what you are experiencing?

 

I'm experiencing low levels playing to the aux or returns. At the moment I'm playing into returns and compensating the low level with gain blocks set from +6 to +10dB depending on the patch.

The guitar input is fine.

I could record a sample of the level difference between aux and guitar inputs later.

[Ka5par]

Here are the sound examples of Guitar in and Aux in:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24456137/Stick%20levels/StickBass_Helix-Guitar-input.wav

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24456137/Stick%20levels/StickBass_Helix-Aux-input.wav

 

I used just the bass side of the instrument to get more comparable results.

No boosting anywhere in the chain, full volume, guitar pad off, 1Mohm impedance.

Recorded through USB.

[Ka5par]

@ rickthestick

 

How do your passive pickup levels compare to these sound samples?

[rickthestick]

I just created a new patch with just a bass amp. My input is set to accept all inputs. The auxiliary input is lower but it is easily made up with gain stages in the compressor, preamp, or whatever. Maybe it's the difference in the impedance? It shouldn't be any kind of issue you can't deal with.

This unit is so superb to anything else I used over the years in the fact that you can process both sides of the Stick in one unit. I had been using the VG-99 for many years and this is such a step up!

Good luck.

[Ka5par]

Compensate maybe, but are peak levels of -37.5dB aux and -23.7dB guitar input a viable place to start with?

[rickthestick]

So, you're measuring that at the output going into a computer or whatever? Where do you have the volume knob set? Is there a pad on what you're going into?

[Ka5par]

So, you're measuring that at the output going into a computer or whatever? Where do you have the volume knob set? Is there a pad on what you're going into?

 

Full volume, no pad, max impedance.

Going to computer via USB.

[rickthestick]

Have you tried a guitar on both inputs? With active pickups you should be slamming the front end. I do wish the Helix had some kind of metering so we could monitor internal levels.

[amyjer1]

I use a Chapman Stick with passive pickups. The solution is to plug the bass side into one of the returns to match the impedance (you cannot adjust the impedance of the Aux input). I have had no issues since using this method. I am hoping a firmware upgrade will permit adjusting the impedance of the Aux input.

 

 

 

 

Have you tried a guitar on both inputs? With active pickups you should be slamming the front end. I do wish the Helix had some kind of metering so we could monitor internal levels.

[Ka5par]

I use a Chapman Stick with passive pickups. The solution is to plug the bass side into one of the returns to match the impedance (you cannot adjust the impedance of the Aux input). I have had no issues since using this method. I am hoping a firmware upgrade will permit adjusting the impedance of the Aux input.

 

 

 

 

I'm using the returns at the moment, but you can't record DI from the returns through USB.

[Ka5par]

Have you tried a guitar on both inputs? With active pickups you should be slamming the front end. I do wish the Helix had some kind of metering so we could monitor internal levels.

 

Tried a guitar with passive humbuckers:

1) guitar input 1Mohm, no pad = -3.5dB peak; tapping = -13.5dB

2) aux = -23.5dB; tapping =  -31dB

3) return = -3.5dB; tapping = -14dB

 

Stick, active pickups:

1) guitar input 1Mohm, no pad = -23.5dB peak

2) aux = -37.5dB

3) return = -23.7dB

 

Would think that active pickups would be louder, but nope...

[SteveBalogh]

I have a Chapman Stick with Villex PASIV pickups, same issue, guitar input is quite loud, AUX, the opposite.  Seems running both sides into the returns works best.  I have an EBS Microbass II which would solve the problem, but I'd like to figure out how to connect directly to the helix and make it work.  I'm thinking the next step is to increase the volume of the PA - surprisingly I have the master volume on the Helix almost all the way up.  That low volume seems to be robbing a bit of tone to my ears.

 

I tried playing with the guitar's impedance control, set it to 10 to match the AUX, no luck.

[SteveBalogh]

Problem solved:

 

Melody side going into guitar input with impedance set to auto.

Bass side going into return 1, with return 1 set from Line to Instrument.

Amp used is the Studio pre.

LA Compressor on both melody and bass paths.

 

I started a Line 6 Helix Topic on the Equipment forum on Stickist.com, thanks to RCLERE for getting me there.

[Ka5par]

Problem solved:

 

Melody side going into guitar input with impedance set to auto.

Bass side going into return 1, with return 1 set from Line to Instrument.

Amp used is the Studio pre.

LA Compressor on both melody and bass paths.

 

I started a Line 6 Helix Topic on the Equipment forum on Stickist.com, thanks to RCLERE for getting me there.

 

Not entirely. Returns don't record direct signal via USB.

[SteveBalogh]

The USB is working for me, I can record both sides.  Odd thing is, I cannot monitor through my Presonus Firestudio (Firewire). In order to monitor, I have to go into my Mac's sound control and route the output back into the Helix.  The Helix can do both in and out, I ran the output via the mic cables into a PA and another amp I have.  The stereo effects worked perfect in the recording as well as monitoring.

[Ka5par]

The USB is working for me, I can record both sides.  Odd thing is, I cannot monitor through my Presonus Firestudio (Firewire). In order to monitor, I have to go into my Mac's sound control and route the output back into the Helix.  The Helix can do both in and out, I ran the output via the mic cables into a PA and another amp I have.  The stereo effects worked perfect in the recording as well as monitoring.

 

But can you record the DI from the returns - the direct signal without any effects? That's why I'm looking for different options.

[SteveBalogh]

You do not get the returns as a choice for "re-amping" a pair of USB channels.  I did get to record something that might work, just don't use a synth as an effect, like I did:

 

Mix a path from GUITAR and INPUT 1 and output into 1-2

 

In the DAW, track 1 input is input 1-2

 

BUS the output of track 1

 

Use the BUS from track 1 as the input for track 2

 

Output track 2 as 7-8

 

Back in the Helix, use the second path input as USB 7-8

 

Add your stereo effect, output 1-2  Perhaps this is where I went wrong.

 

I ended up with track 1 as the raw signal with a drone out of the synth.

Track 2 was the synth effect.

 

Ran out of time to experiment more.  To create the mix path I dropped an eq with flat adjustment.

 

If there's a way to use the AUX input for the bass side, then USB 7-8 could re-amp it and you could follow the instructions in the manual I'm thinking.  I'll try something different in a few days.  Or maybe what I did will give you a new idea.

[Ka5par]

I'm not sure if I followed your explanations fully from start to end, but I don't think it's possible to have a stereo direct signal and stereo effected signal without using guitar and aux inputs, which brings me back to a decision which active DI box to get for the aux input.

Both paths are in use for the effects - one for each side.

 

Or just get used to not changing the sound after the fact. It might be an option if not using reverbs and delays from the Helix.

 

Too bad that the aux or mic input can't be set to instrument level. :(

[SteveBalogh]

OK, I figured it out.  Similar to the instructions in the manual, but you are right about the AUX level.  Either a DI or a clean boost pedal will be needed for the AUX or MIC input.

 

Helix:

Input 1 Use Guitar

Input 2 Use AUX or MIC

Merge input 2 into 1 so both will be output into USB 1-2

Put whatever effects you need for both sides

Go to Menu then Global Settings and assign AUX or MIC to Re-AMP SRC 8, GUITAR was defaulted to Re-Amp SRC 7

 

DAW:

Create one stereo track,Inputs 1-2

Create the melody dry signal MONO track input 7

Create the bass dry signal MONO track input 8

All outputs should be 1-2

 

Plug the melody side in guitar and bass into AUX or MIC

Arm all and record.  I got the effects of both sides in the stereo track, and separate clean signals in the bass and melody mono tracks

 

I did not try using the mic channel.  The problem is they do not allow the returns to be selected for USB 7-8 which are the two Re-Amp inputs in USB.

You only get the choice of AUX,MIC, or GUITAR for 7-8 :(

I used headphones to monitor.

[Rclere]

Here is what you do.... Use Guitar input for melody, then use the Receive of the send/receive.... if you are using two signal paths for melody and bass. Set the second signal path to Rcv and your problems will be over!! Feel free to contact me @ dr.pinhead@mac.com