Is anyone making third party downloadable amplifier models ?

[electricfactory]

Just wondering if anyone is making 3rd party amplifier models/ IR's ? Or is such a thing only possible with cabs ?

[ricksteruk]

I think it would be great if Line6 allowed other developers to write effects blocks for the Helix.

 

Yes it could cause some issues of compatibly and so on.. and I'm sure there would be technical nightmares to overcome.... but if it were possible, once the obstacles were overcome it would be a great way to add to the functionality and general appeal of the Helix, without costing Line6 anything further - plus the Helix could still then have lifespan even after Line 6 stopped R&D on it.

[cruisinon2]

Never gonna happen, for one very simple reason: They'd have to divulge proprietary info to do it. L6 is as tight-lipped a company as there is in that regard. They won't even discuss specs as innocuous as recommended pickup height for the Variax guitars, and you think they're gonna give outside developers a peek at their code? We'll elect a hamster POTUS first.

 

All the companies that make modelers think that they've got the best stuff, and the best developers. Last thing they want is to be shown up by some tech-savvy 15 year old kid who creates an amp model that ends up being more popular than anything that came with the device. It would be a huge embarrassment. Even if it's a longshot, opening themselves up to the possibility would be a horrendous business decision. I seriously doubt Yamaha would approve.

[electricfactory]

Never gonna happen, for one very simple reason: They'd have to divulge proprietary info to do it. L6 is as tight-lipped a company as there is in that regard. They won't even discuss specs as innocuous as recommended pickup height for the Variax guitars, and you think they're gonna give outside developers a peek at their code? We'll elect a hamster POTUS first.

 

All the companies that make modelers think that they've got the best stuff, and the best developers. Last thing they want is to be shown up by some tech-savvy 15 year old kid who creates an amp model that ends up being more popular than anything that came with the device. It would be a huge embarrassment. Even if it's a longshot, opening themselves up to the possibility would be a horrendous business decision. I seriously doubt Yamaha would approve.

Never thought of it that way, but why are cabs different ? Why are cabinet IR's do-able ?

[PeterHamm]

Never thought of it that way, but why are cabs different ? Why are cabinet IR's do-able ?

 

They are a very short audio sample, basically, that stores information about what a cabinet is doing to the sound. An amp model is way way more sophisticated. In HX modeling on the Helix, it involves modeling every single component individually to put it all together. Fractal doesn't offer third party amp models either, and Kemper, which is a profiler, uses a completely different approach.

 

If you are looking for unlimited downloadable amp models or to make your own, Kemper is worth looking into. For me, I do NOT have time for that, and the amp models in the current modelers are more than good enough for me.

[spikey]

 

 

 

If you are looking for unlimited downloadable amp models or to make your own, Kemper is worth looking into. For me, I do NOT have time for that, and the amp models in the current modelers are more than good enough for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep last time I looked on Rig Manager (Kemper Amp online database), there were over 6 thousand available. Now not all are good, and some arn't worth a poot, but some others are excellent!

[cruisinon2]

Yep last time I looked on Rig Manager (Kemper Amp online database), there were over 6 thousand available. Now not all are good, and some arn't worth a poot, but some others are excellent!

See that's the trouble...6000 models?!? Where do you start? I'm not sifting through 6000 of ANYTHING, just to find the 3 or 4 that I'd use. Who has that kind of time? You'd be at it so long, you'll forget how to play in the interim. And thats assuming that you haven't been dead for a year and a half by the time you finish...

[ricksteruk]

Never gonna happen, for one very simple reason: They'd have to divulge proprietary info to do it. L6 is as tight-lipped a company as there is in that regard. They won't even discuss specs as innocuous as recommended pickup height for the Variax guitars, and you think they're gonna give outside developers a peek at their code? We'll elect a hamster POTUS first.

 

All the companies that make modelers think that they've got the best stuff, and the best developers. Last thing they want is to be shown up by some tech-savvy 15 year old kid who creates an amp model that ends up being more popular than anything that came with the device. It would be a huge embarrassment. Even if it's a longshot, opening themselves up to the possibility would be a horrendous business decision. I seriously doubt Yamaha would approve.

 

 

I don't see how it's really that different that VST plug ins or Audio Unit Plug Ins on a PC.  Steinberg and Apple don't have to give away any secrets of their software - they simply need to make a developer framework that says... this is how to access the input connections.. these are the output connections.. here is access to the DSP chips.  GO - MAKE STUFF   

 

This is a simplistic view I grant you...  but also on a very similar theme.. Apple seem to allow people to make Apps for their iPhone as do Google with their Android devices.  It's not rocket science. And surely what people want is choice... Haven't you noticed the craze for apps?  If it was bad business sense - i.e. bad for sales.. then no-one would be buying iPhones or Android devices and instead choosing a product that you could not load other 3rd party apps onto.  The Helix is a computer after all at it's core like a PC or a Smartphone.

 

I do get your point that it would be embarrassing if a 3rd party developer made blocks that were better than the stock stuff... 

 

EDIT: Even better would be the facility just to load VST effects blocks into the Helix.. simple.. then we can access a ton of stuff that already exists...  

[zooey]

EDIT: Even better would be the facility just to load VST effects blocks into the Helix.. simple.. then we can access a ton of stuff that already exists...  

Of course this. But also never going to happen, as in, even the optimist in me loves it but laughs it off. They'd have to implement the entire VST standard, GUI and all, on this DSP chip and their highly proprietary Helix OS.

 

I wish someone would build a hot PC in the Helix form factor, like with all that i/o, a/d/a, display(s), etc. Closest thing I know of is the Orange OPC, which is expensive, not very buyable (in the US at least), and still needs a display and a mouse to use it. Outside of all that, I might well have bought one instead of Helix. But I'm here and doing fine :)

[ricksteruk]

Yeah Zooey it will never happen. VSTs would not work for the reasons you mention.

 

But what if Line6 developed the new standard format for FX/AMP block plug-ins for modellers / effects pedals to use... with Yamaha's backing to use it in their products too?

 

By the way - I'm really not that fussed.. I do like the Helix just the way it is :)

[Digital_Igloo]

Never gonna happen, for one very simple reason: They'd have to divulge proprietary info to do it. L6 is as tight-lipped a company as there is in that regard. Last thing they want is to be shown up by some tech-savvy 15 year old kid who creates an amp model that ends up being more popular than anything that came with the device.

 

If a 15-year-old kid created an amazing-sounding Helix model, we'd be thrilled. True story: A 15-year-old once hacked POD XT's firmware to add a post EQ and we hired him right out of high school. He ended up as one of Helix's system architects, so never say never.

 

Personally, I have no issue with opening our modeling tools to the public, but they're immensely complicated and tweaky in their current form. The main reason we don't go open source is the cost and complexity of creating easy-to-use tools and then supporting an army of armchair sound designers. Would you rather have Ben make more models or spend all week answering emails from people who don't understand tube amp bias?

 

Yamaha would likely not have a say in the matter; Line 6 is a separate company.

[ChubbyJerk]

If a 15-year-old kid created an amazing-sounding Helix model, we'd be thrilled. True story: A 15-year-old once hacked POD XT's firmware to add a post EQ and we hired him right out of high school. He ended up as one of Helix's system architects, so never say never.

 

Personally, I have no issue with opening our modeling tools to the public, but they're immensely complicated and tweaky in their current form. The main reason we don't go open source is the cost and complexity of creating easy-to-use tools and then supporting an army of armchair sound designers. Would you rather have Ben make more models or spend all week answering emails from people who don't understand tube amp bias?

 

Yamaha would likely not have a say in the matter; Line 6 is a separate company.

Is there any chance of some middle ground? Not open to the public, but not completely locked down. Perhaps a partnership with another company? (hint: EHX)

 

OK, so a deal with EHX is probably never going to happen. :) But...

 

Here's an idea. How about Andras Szalay? He worked on the Deep Impact back in the day, and he recently released the Future Impact, an update to the original. IMO, the synths are a weak point of the Helix. How about seeing if he'd be willing to work with you on a Future Impact model for Helix? That would be a huge addition.

[roscoe5]

I think I've spouted this on other threads, so apologies for the repeat. But I would certainly value official certified amp model packs from the original manufacturers on a hardware modeler. Maybe a dev kit to just approved manufacturers with the appropriate IP agreements in place, or just tight Line 6 - Amp Manufacturer collaboration could accomplish this.

Amplitube <oh...just felt an eye roll> has successfully published manufactuer-certified models for the software computer-based platform, and those are some of their best models. Of course few want to use a computer live, and the Helix amp models have surpassed Amplitube anyway...except maybe the Mesa's

I personally would love to get my hands on a dev kit :)

 

There is an huge focus on modelling exiting amplifiers and gear, but very little attention on opening this amazing technology builders to develop new physical (and virtual) amps and effects.

A vision I would have as an amp builder would be to have a (Line 6) amp design suite down to the caps, resistors, transformers, tubes, and pots where I could virtually design an entire amp, audition it as a computer model, then tweak components until perfect. Then build the amp and publish the corresponding (Helix) model and VST plug-in. Then no matter what platform the user plays the amp (physical, modeler, or computer) they would get the same sound. The same could apply to effects.  

 

You can design the circuits in PSpice to refine the physics and functionality and run some analytical waves through them, but you cannot audition them with a live instrument/mic signal (as far as I know, been a few years since I used it).  I believe it's a limitation of the coding and processing power.

 

Of course an application process would likely be required. I'm a member of the Autodesk Developer network, which required a fairly extensive application and approval process. This required previous qualifications checks, information about your current products/projects, and intent of the use of dev tools for future projects. And there is also a bit of cost associated with annual membership. But you can post apps and add-ins on the online store (which Line 6 has also).

Anyway, point is a dev kit could still be managed and controlled by Line 6 and the content (models) required to meet their quality standards and criteria.

Line 6 and Helix could be more than just a product, it could be an musician's and manufacturer's ecosystem...the iPad of modelers.

[cruisinon2]

Line 6 and Helix could be more than just a product, it could be an musician's and manufacturer's ecosystem...the iPad of modelers.

Just as long as it doesn't come with Apple's price structure...or else everyone's shiny new $1500 Helix would be $2850 instead. ;)

[roscoe5]

Ha, true.  i probably could have used an economically better analogy. 

[DunedinDragon]

If a 15-year-old kid created an amazing-sounding Helix model, we'd be thrilled. True story: A 15-year-old once hacked POD XT's firmware to add a post EQ and we hired him right out of high school. He ended up as one of Helix's system architects, so never say never.

 

Personally, I have no issue with opening our modeling tools to the public, but they're immensely complicated and tweaky in their current form. The main reason we don't go open source is the cost and complexity of creating easy-to-use tools and then supporting an army of armchair sound designers. Would you rather have Ben make more models or spend all week answering emails from people who don't understand tube amp bias?

 

Yamaha would likely not have a say in the matter; Line 6 is a separate company.

 

I totally get where you're coming from.  What people tend to forget is things like VST's were architected from the very beginning as a plug-inable interface specification that took many years to gain the stability it enjoys now.  It's a double-edged sword in that the potential for gaining massive market share is there, but the support and education requirements to ensure developers use interfaces appropriately without tanking the system is daunting.  And the biggest issue is that armchair sound designers/developers aren't very well known for their testing discipline.  I've got quite a library of early VST's that prove that point!!!

[MelThorpe]

I think even having a Positive Grid/BIAS type editor would be very cool for the Helix. That way we can create something from what Helix already offers. It would stay in the confines of what has already been done, but still give us the option to totally go nuts. DSP would have to be calculated at the component level instead of the block level, but how fun would that be!

[electricfactory]

See that's the trouble...6000 models?!? Where do you start? I'm not sifting through 6000 of ANYTHING, just to find the 3 or 4 that I'd use. Who has that kind of time? You'd be at it so long, you'll forget how to play in the interim. And thats assuming that you haven't been dead for a year and a half by the time you finish...

Your're right, no one with other things to do would 'sift through 6000 amps, I was only musing that, were other amp models [ Supro for instance] available to buy as 'extras', I'd probably buy some. Have been eyeing one of the new Supro reissues lately and thought it would be pretty cool to have that amp in the HELIX.

Does the HELIX have enough amps on-board to keep a fella busy for a while? Yes without a doubt. But I'd buy a Supro amp model for the HELIX if I could..

[spikey]

Just as long as it doesn't come with Apple's price structure...or else everyone's shiny new $1500 Helix would be $2850 instead. ;)

OTOH Logic X was the cheaper of the DAW's by a mile and is just as powerful.

 

See that's the trouble...6000 models?!? Where do you start?

 

You wouldn't unless you were looking for a specific amp/tone- and in this case the numbers then come in handy.

[mileskb]

Now follow me on this.   I would settle for being able to just bypass the pre-amp on the combo amp blocks.  This would enable putting any pre-amp block first into any amp.  ( PRE > COMBO (with pre-bypasses) ) > cab or whatever.

 

So once that is doable, have a "custom amp block creator" likely outside of the helix, maybe in the editor, where you could create Combo Amp blocks with any pre-amp/amp combination.   The Editor ability, might be better suited to modify the AMP and PRE-AMP structure a little more.   Use 12AT7 instead of 12AX7, or have an insert point for the effects etc..   Maybe a voltage option on the output section if it's tubes.

 

This would really open up the creativity of sound.  Imagine using any combo front end pre-amp with any amp in the collection.  The tube amps already have lots of control over BIAS, Sag etc..    

[willjrock]

Im not sure there are any sonic benefits to loading a third party VST as a block as opposed to plugging into the helix and loading as a VST plugin....as a matter of fact there really cant be. 

 

The OP never mentioned what his reason was for the curiosity, and depending on what youre doing (playing live for instance), i can see how it would/could simplify things, but speaking strictly sonics, im hard pressed to believe there is any benefit at all.

[glideman]

I had a crap ton of the commercial amp profiles on the Kemper when I had it.  I of course still have those profiles.  :)

 

It's true, you can just sit there and go through amp models until you drive yourself crazy.  However, the point made

above is true...  if you're the one looking for one, or a couple of way out there amps, there they are.

 

I don't think I will ever need THAT many "models" again.  LoL!  Still think Helix could use a few more than it has, though, for

versatility's sake.  Probably some happy median between current Helix and AX8, but nothing extreme (over time of course).

[electricfactory]

I had a crap ton of the commercial amp profiles on the Kemper when I had it.  I of course still have those profiles.   :)

 

It's true, you can just sit there and go through amp models until you drive yourself crazy.  However, the point made

above is true...  if you're the one looking for one, or a couple of way out there amps, there they are.

 

I don't think I will ever need THAT many "models" again.  LoL!  Still think Helix could use a few more than it has, though, for

versatility's sake.  Probably some happy median between current Helix and AX8, but nothing extreme (over time of course).

My take exactly..