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Played Helix through speakers for the first time


zooey
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As I've posted before, I've been having big fun w Helix in headphones, but I do actually want to be able to play w other people (again after a million years), so I picked up a pair of Alesis Alpha 112 powered FRFRs on eBay a while ago. Back then I was thinking about an Amplitube rig, but only did that a little through the 112s before I got my Helix, and it's been Helix and headphones in the living room ever since. Today was my first try w Helix through the 112s, down in my basement "studio", still on my own.

 

To be honest, it was pretty disappointing. I knew I'd probably want to EQ things differently, and I did. (I'm fine w that. Bless L6 for the global EQ, wish Amplitube had that.) The 112s were brighter in general than my AKG 240s (I think that's the model, had them for years, the chrome thingies w that info are long gone), so I added some warmth, pulled a little 600-ish and some 3.7k, best I could hear first go-round, not awful.

 

But I didn't expect to be as unhappy with the overall feel as I was. It just felt processed, artificial, reminded me of why I didn't like L6 stuff in the past. And trust me, I'm not a 10,000 fx guy. Most of my patches have some overdrives, a chorus or two, delay, and verb, but everything except the verb is typically off by default. I rarely play with tons of distortion.

 

I know the 112s are a budget solution, but they're pretty well respected, and certainly didn't sound overtly messed up or anything. And hey, this is reality, more or less. I'm not doing music professionally any more, buying the Helix was irresponsible enough, I'm certainly not springing for a pair of Atomics etc.to wank off with.

 

I'm not totally bummed, because I sort of expected this, but it is a little disheartening. I'll work on the global EQ over time, like everything else about this, and it's possible the 112s will loosen up a bit with use. (Maybe I should play them loud-ish unattended for a few days to speed that up?)

 

I still have a blast w Helix in phones, it's just frustrating that that didn't translate better right off to something I can jam or gig with. If anyone has any suggestions besides working on the global EQ, or how specifically to go about that other than just trying to make myself happy, by all means speak up.

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Stick with it....its taken me 3 weeks of serious tweaking to get my QSC K12s and K8s dialled in.  Biggest improvement came from using Redwirez IRs with the QSCs.  I'm using an Allan & Heath mixer as well which seems to complement the setup. When I first plugged in and A/B'd my amp the QSCs sounded dark, lacking life, and a bit muffled. Not anymore - just spend the hours.

 

When I first bought my Mesa DR it took about 6 months to dial in the sound I wanted! So a few weeks is nothing really.

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I found my Alphas harsh at first too.  I was super bummed and thought I made a mistake but stuck with it and yes, they have 'broken in'.  Like you, I don't want to drop another grand for a pair of speakers and now I'm really happy with these.

 

I don't use any funky EQ or global tricks.  I use a high cut on the cab from 7-13k depending, and low cut around 100-160.  Play with cab and mic choices as that has a HUGE effect on your tone.  Third party IR's are great too but you should explore and learn all the internal cabs/mics first.  Also I found I needed to use the XLR instead of the 1/4 outs, not sure why but it sounded better to me.  Line or instrument level doesn't really matter.

 

Give them a chance.  Play them hard and see how they break in.    Oh, I did get a Behringer 12" sub and it cuts 100kHz before the Alphas too.  Probably overkill but whatever...

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I don't know anyone that hasn't struggled a bit to get their sound right going through powered speakers.  But in my mind it's worth the time to find the recipe that gets them sounding right.  The fact is, you can use headsets and it makes things pretty easy, but the sound you get coming out of that powered speaker is the sound the audience will hear if you play live through a PA.  So in reality there are other solutions that would give you an easier time getting a good stage sound, but if you go direct to a PA it won't really matter that your on stage solution sounds good because the audience will be hearing something completely different.  If you can master getting your sound right through the powered speakers the sound tech running a PA board simply has to set your EQ flat and the audience hears what you hear.

 

What I do is set my speakers with a flat EQ and use the Global EQ to constrain the frequency response to something generally close to what a normal amp and speaker cabinet produces.  I set the low cut around 125 Hz and the high cut around 7500 Hz.  That helps a lot with the boominess at the low end and the brittleness at the top end.  Beyond that it tends to be minor tweeks that tame various frequencies depending on the amp and cabinet being used in a patch.  The good news here is the Helix offers a multitude of ways to do that and to tailor your sound so that it works well in the context of a live band so that you;re not competing with vocals or other instruments and can be heard without having to depend on volume.

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 I use a high cut on the cab from 7-13k depending, and low cut around 100-160. 

 

I have to have a little chuckle to myself every time I read this sort of thing.  

(No offence radatats... ! - indeed what you say is true.. you need to cut the highs and lows from a FRFR speaker to make it sound right)

 

What makes me chuckle to myself is that I think.. "lol, why just not use a guitar speaker cab in the first place!"  

The frequency response is just right... It's almost as if it is designed to be used with electric guitar ;)

 

Heee hee.

 

(N.B.) - I fully understand why one might choose to use a FRFR for your rig - namely - it's the same as the PA, so if it sounds good through your speaker it will sound good through the PA, or if you want to use acoustic guitar, or vocals, or synths it can reproduce the frequencies you need whereas a guitar cab cannot.  However for pure electric guitar tones.. it's not necessarily the logical choice IMO

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Thanks guys. I wasn't happy in phones at first either. There's enough sonic flexibility in the Helix to make a wide range of players happy, but the tradeoff is you have to find your own way a bit.

 

 

So the first question is how to get the 112s to sound good, which, like phones, is probably a matter of working on it for a good long while.

 

The second question is harder: How to build patches that sound good through phones AND the 112s. Phones are a big part of my playing life these days. Unless I push myself not to use them to avoid the whole speakers vs phones question, I'm there more than in than in speakers -- Helix on the couch next me, just grab a guitar whenever I feel like it, still hang with people, not hermit-ed away in the basement. But if I do want to get back to playing w other people, my patches have to work in speakers too.

 

On that level, it's down to the global EQ, plus headphone and speaker choice. I've got the speakers I "can" afford, so that's pretty much locked in. (Unless someone has a radically better idea for short money, but I think I would have heard about it by now.) The 240s are pretty reasonable phones (that is what they are; found another pair w the model number still on them), and they're also what I already own, so I'm kinda decided there too. Maybe a bit open to other suggestions, since phones are cheaper than FRFRs, still not exactly pocket change for good ones though

 

 

I'm not hearing overt clipping like in Radatat's older thread on the 112s, that's not the issue. (Think I have them up about half way, Helix 1/4" out into XLRs on the 112s, reserving the Helix XLRs for the PA.)

 

Problem was more that everything sounded compressed and processed, artificial. small, POD-like. (Most of my patches have no compression, some do.)

 

Dunedin is right that your direct sound is what matters in the room, so I kind of have to solve this, just have to spend the time in speakers I guess.

 

But what global EQ do I use while I'm doing that? None? I could make versions of my fave patches that work for speakers running flat, see how they do in phones, maybe use the global EQ for the phones instead. Or I could listen to some albums on the 122s, set the global EQ for that if need be, then build patches that work in that environment, adjust the EQ when I'm in phones if needed

 

 

Have to say, this was a letdown. I've been feeling so at home w Helix, excited to use those tones with other people, but as it stands, no. I would have felt like an idiot if I'd shown up at a jam thinking I had some great sounds, and what I heard yesterday came out. Not to mention telling my wife that I'm not (yet, hopefully) happy w the rig I spent so much on.

 

Well talking about it changes nothing, onward :)

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I have to have a little chuckle to myself every time I read this sort of thing.  

(No offence radatats... ! - indeed what you say is true.. you need to cut the highs and lows from a FRFR speaker to make it sound right)

 

What makes me chuckle to myself is that I think.. "lol, why just not use a guitar speaker cab in the first place!"  

The frequency response is just right... It's almost as if it is designed to be used with electric guitar ;)

 

Heee hee.

 

(N.B.) - I fully understand why one might choose to use a FRFR for your rig - namely - it's the same as the PA, so if it sounds good through your speaker it will sound good through the PA, or if you want to use acoustic guitar, or vocals, or synths it can reproduce the frequencies you need whereas a guitar cab cannot.  However for pure electric guitar tones.. it's not necessarily the logical choice IMO

Im with ya brother....but i never tried FRFR so i figured i better keep my lips together :)

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Understand what you're saying about using a guitar cab rather than simulating one, however...

- You're limited to the cab(s) you want to buy and carry

- You're leaving the sound the audience hears from the PA or recording of you in someone else's hands (if your cab is mic'd), or hearing something completely different (if you listen to a guitar cab and send Helix etc direct)

- Suitable only for electric guitar

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Understand what you're saying about using a guitar cab rather than simulating one, however...

- You're limited to the cab(s) you want to buy and carry

- You're leaving the sound the audience hears from the PA or recording of you in someone else's hands (if your cab is mic'd), or hearing something completely different (if you listen to a guitar cab and send Helix etc direct)

- Suitable only for electric guitar

 

The most important point of this is 'Suitable only for electric guitar".  I agree! :)  (although Keyboards can sound pretty awesome through Fender twins or Marshall stacks, or Leslie Speaker cabs).  If you want to play acoustic guitar you need a tweeter.  A guitar cab does not have one.

 

However, there is a myth that FRFR speakers are a "perfect" representation of the sound.  This simply is not true.  All speakers colour the sound.   There is no magic that makes a FRFR speaker flat.. there is a magnet, and a copper wire voice coil (usually) attached to a speaker cone.  A FRFR speaker simply has a tweeter added whereas a guitar cab does not.  

 

FRFR speaker driver are designed to be flat within their range of course... but don't you think guitar speakers were originally too?  Did Celestion try to make some really uneven speakers with a bad response?  Of course not!  It just so happened that the best speaker technology of the 60s was not quite as good as it is now.   But some guitar speakers these days actually have a pretty flat response compared to PA / FRFR drivers

 

Check out these frequency plots.. firstly from a Neo 12 inch Celestion NTR12-3018D (most FRFR use Neo these days)

 

CELESTION NTR12-3018D

graph.gif

 

Now a Guitar speaker.. Celestion's A-Type.. a fairly flat one.

 

CELESTION A-TYPE

graph.gif

 

To me it looks like the A-Type actually has a flatter response in the 100Hz to 1k range.  After that the A type has a bit of a peak whereas the NTR12 has a dip.  But are they wildy different?  NO

 

What I am saying is that you can just as easily use guitar speaker with a flattish response and achieve similar results to with a PA / FRFR speaker as far as using it with Helix modelled cabs and IRs (minus the tweeter of course)

 

Your sound in the PA is always in someone else's hands unless you are doing it yourself!  And unless the PA system is exactly the same speaker (unlikely the main FOH in a venue is a 1x10 Alto speaker each side) it will be a little different... the FOH engineer may have to add a little HF, or add bass...  In fact very much the same process as if they had miked up your cabinet.

 

As far as my live rig goes I have set up a feed to the XLR through a Helix cab.  I chose the Interstate 2x12 as it sounds very similar to my guitar cab.  I just needed to add an extra EQ block in front of the Helix Cab to match them.   It now sounds almost exactly the same as putting a SM57 on my real cab when you run it through the PA.

 

Now don't misunderstand me.. I have nothing against FRFR speakers.. they are great!  I just want people to understand they are simply speakers much like a guitar cab and not some magic device.

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I am facing the same problem like you.... Usually play through my phones. Used to play with akg but now with beyerdynamic 770 250 ohm. Regarding to that i realy pleased with that change... The beyerdynamic are perfect for it. Line 6 recommend to go with 250 ohm and higher keep in mind.

When playing through my monitor speakers (krk 8") the sound is great... But the volume settings changes tremendously if to compare to my headphones (headphones are louder), do now I have to alter my presets when switching between phones and monitors.

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Your sound in the PA is always in someone else's hands unless you are doing it yourself!  And unless the PA system is exactly the same speaker (unlikely the main FOH in a venue is a 1x10 Alto speaker each side) it will be a little different... the FOH engineer may have to add a little HF, or add bass...  In fact very much the same process as if they had miked up your cabinet.

 

As far as my live rig goes I have set up a feed to the XLR through a Helix cab.  I chose the Interstate 2x12 as it sounds very similar to my guitar cab.  I just needed to add an extra EQ block in front of the Helix Cab to match them.   It now sounds almost exactly the same as putting a SM57 on my real cab when you run it through the PA.

 

Now don't misunderstand me.. I have nothing against FRFR speakers.. they are great!  I just want people to understand they are simply speakers much like a guitar cab and not some magic device.

 

Although I generally agree with what you're saying about FRFR speakers, the graphs you included don't really show the response characteristics of an FRFR speaker because we're talking about both a standard speaker plus a compression driver that addresses the higher range of frequencies, which will be the same as most FOH systems have nowdays.  It still won't be exactly "flat" but it will have a much broader response than a typical guitar cabinet with no compression driver.

 

And although your sound may be in someone else's hands when it comes to the PA, my concern is being able to ensure as much as possible that the sound I'm hearing on stage is the sound that should be going out of the FOH speakers.  It's far more likely I'll achieve that with a FRFR rig that has a compression driver similar to what's being used in the FOH speakers than with a guitar cabinet which could very easily deceive you about how your patch actually sounds in the FOH via your XLR feed.  In my experience not all cabinet models do an adequate job of managing those upper end frequencies resulting in a tone that sounds far more brittle than what you're hearing on stage.  Yes, there's more work involved in dealing with the FRFR speaker to dial in the tone, but I would rather know for sure what things sound like out front.

 

In your case you may have solved it with your setup, but for many people that use very different models and cabinets in different patches there's just no other way to really be sure.

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not to belabor the subject but when you say FRFR you are talking about a system (woofer, tweeter, crossovers, amplifiers, and tuned enclosure) not just the drivers.  Those freq charts don't tell the whole story of the FRFR system but they do represent a basic guitar cab.  I have a 2X12 closed cab with V30's and an open back cab with Eminence governors.  Both sound great, both different, neither as convenient or flexible as my Alphas.  If you don't want to cart around cabs and amps you figure out what you gotta do to get your tone from your FRFR's and can be pretty sure the same thing is going to FOH...

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Shimonma357, are you saying the Beyerdynamic phones match the sound of your speakers better than your AKGs did? IF so, that might be something I shoudl try. The real problem I'm having isn't the frequency response of the 112s as much as it is the difference between them and my phones. Changing headphones is clearly one way to try fixing that.

 

I also don't understand what you're saying about volume. Why would volume difference between phones and speakers make you need to change individual presets? Is that because the frequency responses are different, so more bassy presets sound louder on the more bassy system (for instance)?

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The second question is harder: How to build patches that sound good through phones AND the 112s...

Very simple...don't even bother trying to use the same patch(es) live and through your AKG's. Every time you change what you're listening through (not to mention the volume), a patch will sound different...night and day different sometimes. May as well get used to that idea now, it'll save you a lot of wasted hours. I've got patches that I use live, and I've got my headphone patches. They're not radically different, but certainly not identical. Unless you really enjoy tweaking back an forth constantly, just set up patches for their intended use. It's a hell of a lot easier.

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Hah, you may be right, much as that goes against my instincts and wishes. I'd rather be able to work on sounds in either environment, and have them sound good in the other, but that may be a fantasy.

 

The semi-good news is I played through the 112s again today, and didn't feel quite as much out to sea. Tweaked the global EQ, and some patches, definitely still have a lot of work to do, but it felt a little less like a lost cause.

 

I think something happens to your playing and your brain when you work with the same rig for a while, no matter what it is. You get used to it on a subtle level, and make micro adjustments in picking etc.

 

We'll see. Still thinking about changing headphones though too.

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Hah, you may be right, much as that goes against my instincts and wishes. I'd rather be able to work on sounds in either environment, and have them sound good in the other, but that may be a fantasy.

 

Well that's never gonna happen with any rig. Changing nothing more than the volume will screw up that fantasy for you...there's no way around that. Perceived loudness of different frequency ranges changes with volume. Can't fight that no matter what you do. But even if that weren't the case, no set of cans is gonna have an identical frequency response to powered speakers at stage volume. Tweak for the job....it's all you can do.

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Re volume, of course Fletcher-Munson applies, plus there's something just plain cool about loud electric guitar. But you can turn speakers or phones up or down easily to check that out, and I do.

 

There's also live vs recorded, by yourself vs in a mix, rock power trio vs 15-piece future jazz band, infinite varieties of different targets, I'm aware.

 

So maybe that's just it, I have to live with phones and speakers being so different that they need different presets. But practically speaking, ideally I'd want those to environments to be as close as possible, to make it easier to make a version of some cool new patch for the other one.

 

We'll see, I guess.

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Next chapter: Today I turned off the global EQ, and played some commercial recordings I know pretty well through the 112s, to see what I thought from that arguably less biased perspective. Completely different than what I thought on first listen to my Helix presets.

 

I thought there was a pretty narrow peak about 100hz, common just above the rolloff point; cabs are often built that way to feel like there's more low end than there really is. Took that out w the global EQ. And they're too bright IMO, took 2.5 db out at 8k, pretty wide. They sounded pretty reasonable to me then. There's not that much deep bass relative to a full mix, but I knew that. They're 12" woofers, spec is 51Hz-20kHz (-10db), and 10bd's a lot. A DJ would need a sub, I don't for guitar, haven't played bass through them much, but I'll just have to live w whatever I get.

 

So does it make sense to start there, EQ my presets to work with an overall curve that makes commercial records sound reasonable, to me? Maybe play along w those mixes, see how my tones fit in?

 

 

I feel really weird asking these modelers-101 questions. Back in the day I was a professional musician, sound man, and custom electronics guy, for decades. But w my guitar rig back then, I just tried to get what was in front of me sounding like something I liked. These perspective questions didn't exist, or I didn't think about them so directly. As a sound man, I thought my job was like a photographer, in that what's "really there" isn't the question, it's about finding angle to "view" the performance that's some appropriate kind of really cool, and helps the performances get across.

 

So maybe I should just forget all this analytical stuff, make my presets sound good to me throught this rig, let the sounds person worry about absolutes.

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Maybe it is because I grew up on Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, Tony Iommi, Ritchie Blackmore, Jimmy Page, Duane Allman, Jerry Garcia, Brian May, Edward Van Halen, Steve Morse, Al Di Meola, etc. but the guitars I heard were played through gloriously sonically crippled guitar cabinets and combos that generally started to drop off at the high end around 5khz. Although I can start my high cuts around 8-9khz or even higher on some presets, generally I like high cuts starting in the 5-7khz range. There is a reason any of us who tried at least once to play their electric guitar through the family stereo with its full 20hz-20,00khz frequency range thought it sounded thin and like fingernails on a chalkboard, and it wasn't just the frequency response (as opposed to frequency range) or which frequencies were emphasized. To my ears, conditioned to the sounds of some of my favorite guitar players, the sound of the guitar just starts to sound exhausting, ice-picky, and harsh at the upper frequencies. I just don't like it up there. I want to cut through the mix but I like the tone to also be warm with an almost vocal-like qualty, rarely harsh.

 

I know there is a whole beautiful soundscape up in those upper reaches. I am however perfectly content for the most part, with some exceptions such as synth guitar type sounds, to leave that region of the frequency range to the keyboards, flutes and the like, cymbal sizzle, airiness for vocals, and instruments that require mountainous peaks. I would not be surprised if the ears of young guitarists, brought up from jump on guitar modelers and full range FRFR systems learn to appreciate the sound of a guitar still going strong at frequencies above say 9khz but I don't know if I will ever fully appreciate that range for rock guitar. I guess I am not sure whether it is subjective or whether most players, regardless of their age and the equipment used to make their favorite music think that the guitar just does not sound its best without cuts on the high end.

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I agree with HO's statement above about high cutting the guitar cabs/IRs to the 5-7kHz range for powered PA cab use.

 

My band runs with JBL Eon 515xt 15"/horn speakers for mains and monitors (+ sub). Luckily two of them are mine I keep at home. Life got a lot better when I just sat down and I tweaked my patches to sound good with them. I think I dealt with the same harshness that you are dealing with.

 

Of course these JBLs are not FRFR, but they are what the audience hears and it gives me a warm and fuzzy adjusting to them.

 

Now I have pretty well acclimated my ears to the difference between the powered speakers and my headphones (Sennheiser HD280), so I can setup patches and practice with headphones. Patches are a little darker in the headphones than the speakers, but I don't maintain two sets of patches. I just accept the darkness knowing that its all good live.

 

Now that Im typing and thinking about it, one thing I haven't tried they may help us both now is turning on and using the global eq to boost highs for headphones, not the other way around. Hmm...

 

FYI just to paint the whole picture and context, my Line 6 Spider Valve and V30 cab I am using live on full band gigs just makes a little supplemental noise and feel behind me (and looks cool with that LED plexi logo...Line 6 represent). I only adjust the resonance and presence and volume to something generally pleasing on stage, which the SV actually does a great job of. I didnt tweak the Helix patches to it. I do get some guitar in the JBL monitor in front of me. The blend of the full range Helix sound in the monitor mix in front of me and the Helix + SV tube amp/V30 sound behind me is actually very nice, even though they are not identical. Oh, and the signal is split with a cab/IR XLR to the PA and no cab to the 1/4" out to the SV/V30's.

 

I may end up going part or full FRFR one of these days. The L6 SV power section is surprisingly full range sounding with my 1x12 & 2x12 bass cabs, but the bass cabs are boomy. A Matrix FR212 + L6 SV could be a best of both worlds winner. But my wallet and I are pretty happy for now.

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I agree with HO's statement above about high cutting the guitar cabs/IRs to the 5-7kHz range for powered PA cab use.

....

 

Thanks for pointing that out, I am indeed referring to those cuts (often on both the low and high end) being most critical when going direct to the PA or monitoring with full-range PA or FRFR cabs. A guitar amp combo or head and cab may already be making those cuts for you by virtue of its preamp and tone stack or more likely its speaker's characteristics; but a PA/FRFR speaker is capable of returning a much wider frequency range.  I will admit though that even with a guitar amp/cab sometimes it still sounds like the highs/lows need to be cut when feeding it from an MFX unit capable of delivering a signal across a range closer to 20hz-20,000khz.

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Thanks for pointing that out, I am indeed referring to those cuts (often on both the low and high end) being most critical when going direct to the PA or monitoring with full-range PA or FRFR cabs. A guitar amp combo or head and cab may already be making those cuts for you by virtue of its preamp and tone stack or more likely its speaker's characteristics; but a PA/FRFR speaker is capable of returning a much wider frequency range.  I will admit though that even with a guitar amp/cab sometimes it still sounds like the highs/lows need to be cut when feeding it from an MFX unit capable of delivering a signal across a range closer to 20hz-20,000khz.

 

That's really true! Going through the Helix Factory Presets through my guitar cabs some of them need lows cutting.

 

I think an important point to consider when dialling in tones is are you trying to achieve:

 

1) a sound directly like would be coming from your guitar cab (so you could put your FRFR next to a guitar amp/cab and they would sound identical), or

2) are you aiming for the sound that your guitar cab would make if it were cranked up and miked in a studio, with post processing EQ and FX applied and then played through a home hifi / pa system.  You can then hear the room ambience as well as the cab.  Of course you can then choose from a variety of cabs.  An open back cab /IR  will have much more ambience in it than a closed back cab for example.. especially as you pull the mic away from the speaker cone.

 

Both approaches are possible with the Helix.    Some of Helix's cabs are quite subtle and do a pretty good job of 1, but most of them seem more designed for 2 in my opinion.  I wonder if this is why people sometimes are down on the Helix cabs?  Naturally this room ambience has a "boxy" quality to it that people talk about.  For that is what a room is - a box.

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That's kind of the question I was asking myself:

 

a ) Do bypass the global EQ, build my patches so they sound good the 112s?

b ) Or do I EQ the 112s to sound good with good recordings, and build my patches so they make sense in the context of those mixes?

 

In both cases, I'd use the global EQ for headphones, and stage adjustments in weird rooms, and let the FOH person handle FOH.

 

Let me guess, most folks do (a), rock what's sitting in front of them :)

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