Poor Man's FRFR - Crate Powerblock + PE-12H Speakers

[roscoe5]

I came across a pair of Crate PE 12H speakers today in great condition for $100, but I can't find any info on them as far as frequency response. I can return them to the shop if I don't like them. But I wouldn't mind upgrading components for that cab size and form factor. Together they are about the size of my Mesa Recto 212.

They are from the USA SLM era and seem solid. I like the size and form factor. The design seems vaguely similar to current FRFR speakers. They have 1" foster compression horns and 12" Eminence FST drivers.

I'm totally expecting them to sound like poo, but worth the experement since I can return them. Will try them with my Crate PowerBlock 75w x 2 and L6 SV HD100, maybe other things too.

Heres to hopefully discovering a hidden jem. Wish me luck!

Crate PE-12H
1" compression driver in a mid-sized horn
12" Eminence FST Driver
Rear ported


Line 6 Firehawk 1500
1" compression driver in a mid-sized horn
12" Custom Driver
2 x 6" mid drivers
Front ported



Matrix FR12
1" compression driver in a mid-sized horn
12" Custom Driver
Front ported




Atomic CLR
1" compression driver in a mid-sized horn
12" Custom Driver
Ported?

[watch4king]

I just got a brand new EV FRFR powered speaker brand new for $260. on the bay. REAL thrilled specially for the price! 

1500 Watts. A real steal....

[roscoe5]

I'm really interested in a cheap passive solution to test my working theory on the full range potential of the L6 Spider Valve HD100. If it pans out, I may go for the Matrix FR212...or not if I'm happy with these.

 

100 watts tube into two 12" guitar speakers has proven to be plenty loud. This should be the case for full range speakers as well.

[watch4king]

I'm really interested in a cheap passive solution to test my working theory on the full range potential of the L6 Spider Valve HD100. If it pans out, I may go for the Matrix FR212...or not if I'm happy with these.

 

100 watts tube into two 12" guitar speakers has proven to be plenty loud. This should be the case for full range speakers as well.

 

Roscoe,

100 Watts on a tube amp is not the same result as a flat response speaker. The tube guitar amp has its own character and sound and it will color and change the sound from the Helix. The reason to use FRFR is so you can use the Helix to reproduce the sound of the amp while the speaker delivers the actual sound of the emulated amp and cabinet without changing its tone or character. Yes, you can use a tube amp but then you'd be using 2 amp sounds. The Helix and the Tube amp.

And, 100 watts on a tube amp is a whole LOT louder than a 100 Watt speaker....

[roscoe5]

Yep. I totally understand the goal of true FRFR.  I'm of the mind to find a solution that offers both Helix into tube amp feel and Helix into FRFR.  I believe a bit of feel and response could be missing from the digital amp powered FRFR solutions that is present with Helix into tube power amps.  I think this is what Atomic was attempting with the Reactor series.  

 

I believe the L6 SV power amp is the cleanest, flattest tube power amp I have ever encountered.  Running it with cab models or IR's into my Mesa Walkabout Scout 1x12 cab with horn is VERY close to the sound in headphones, while having a better response and feel while playing.  Plugging the back port brings it even closer.  It sounds and feels better than running Helix into the SS power sections of my Mesa Walkabout or M9 (which the M9 is supposed to be very flat).

 

The presence knob on the L6 SV really controls the highs intuitively.  Running presence at around 75% up really lets the cab models & IR's shine through, not to mention my acoustic sim IR's.

 

Those Crate PE-12H speakers are just about the same size as that Scout cab with about the same type of rear port.  And of course they don't have the down-firing bass radiator which should make them less boomy than the Scout.  They have a 1" foster compression horn of a similar design to the Firehawk 1500 and Matrix FR12 & FR212, so I believe the horn will be fine.  I may or may not want to change the 12" drivers.

 

Considering that even with a mic'd tube amp and cab, the FOH sound is still slightly different than stage sound.  I know Helix can deliver stellar direct XLR out sounds to the FOH.  I believe L6 SV and full range speakers can get very close to that sound, enable me to use cab models and IR's, along with my current acoustic sim IR's and any future Line 6 acoustic models, synths, etc., all while letting me keep a tube amp feel and response I am used to on stage while I play.  Plus I bet I can just keep it all behind me on the floor guitar amp style.

 

And of course I can be totally wrong about it all and will hang my head in shame while I eat crow ;)  But at least it's good fun for just the cost of a $100 pair of speakers that I can return.

[roscoe5]

I just got a brand new EV FRFR powered speaker brand new for $260. on the bay. REAL thrilled specially for the price!

1500 Watts. A real steal....

Oh and congrats in the eBay score! That is a great deal.

[DunedinDragon]

To each their own.  But I would like to interject one observation I've come to with modeling that may be a useful consideration here.

 

It seems to me after a number of years working with modeling that people that tend to get the best out of their modelers come at it from a different perspective than many.  People that perceive a modeler as a replacement for a traditional amp setup will often chase after different physical setups, many of which work against the best benefits a modeler brings to the table.  A modeler really has FAR more in common with a recording studio than it does a traditional plug and play amp, and if you approach it that way and understand that the goal is to provide studio quality sound in a live environment you'll probably get much more out of your modeler than if you chase after physical setups that would be more appropriate to a traditional amp.

 

When you look at the facilities provided by the Helix for routing, signal path design, cabinet and mic'ing options, etc. it's clear to me that the more time you spend understanding recording techniques and how to best apply them, the more you'll get out of the unit.  And you don't really need a lot of complexity on the speaker/amp side.  Just a simple, clean, faithful reproduction of what comes out of the Helix.

[roscoe5]

I do agree on the faithful reproduction perspective.  I am probably going through a typical evolution from traditional guitar amp to FRFR.  It's hard to find the inspiration and motivation to make a major FRFR investment when Helix sounds so good through my traditional guitar and bass rigs.  Knowing myself, if / when I do it, I will likely go all out and get one of the top solutions.

 

I probably focused a little too much on the power amp and derailed my own thread.  I am certainly open to clean, transparent solid state power with full range speakers.  I just happen to be really up on the L6 SV right now.

 

The real point of this thread was the Crate speakers and some basic similarities to the current top FRFR solutions that I am interested in from Matrix, Atomic, and Line 6.  I know that the cab engineering of the FRFR solutions is where a lot of the magic is, not just in the components.  I am hoping they are similar enough for me to experiment with, get a basic feel and comfort for FRFR, and to inspire me to go big.  

[BillBee]

I think you will be pleased with the setup. I've ran an HD thru my old PA (Peavey PA Head and Kustom PA speakers) and it does sound really good after it was EQ'd to limit the tweeter and woofer response.

[DunedinDragon]

I think a lot of it has to do with training one's ear to listen to the guitar as if it's a professional recording rather than a live performance.  It's a bit of an adjustment but it can really have a prominent effect in a band situation so that everything has the feel of a professional mix and everything can be heard clearly without having to depend on volume.  Worth the effort in my opinion, and a real differentiator for a band from the masses.

[cruisinon2]

I do agree on the faithful reproduction perspective. I am probably going through a typical evolution from traditional guitar amp to FRFR. It's hard to find the inspiration and motivation to make a major FRFR investment when Helix sounds so good through my traditional guitar and bass rigs. Knowing myself, if / when I do it, I will likely go all out and get one of the top solutions.

 

I probably focused a little too much on the power amp and derailed my own thread. I am certainly open to clean, transparent solid state power with full range speakers. I just happen to be really up on the L6 SV right now.

 

The real point of this thread was the Crate speakers and some basic similarities to the current top FRFR solutions that I am interested in from Matrix, Atomic, and Line 6. I know that the cab engineering of the FRFR solutions is where a lot of the magic is, not just in the components. I am hoping they are similar enough for me to experiment with, get a basic feel and comfort for FRFR, and to inspire me to go big.

Well for a hundred bucks, it's certainly worth a try...whatever the frequency response of those are, it's gonna be flatter and broader than a guitar cabinet. True FRFR? Probably not, but "close enough for gov't work" ;), and it should certainly give you an idea of how a FRFR rig responds. Figure out if its for you before dropping big $$ on the expensive stuff.

[watch4king]

Well for a hundred bucks, it's certainly worth a try...whatever the frequency response of those are, it's gonna be flatter and broader than a guitar cabinet. True FRFR? Probably not, but "close enough for gov't work" ;), and it should certainly give you an idea of how a FRFR rig responds. Figure out of its for you before dropping big $$ on the expensive stuff.

That's a good way to look at it!

[hideout]

To each their own.  But I would like to interject one observation I've come to with modeling that may be a useful consideration here.

 

It seems to me after a number of years working with modeling that people that tend to get the best out of their modelers come at it from a different perspective than many.  People that perceive a modeler as a replacement for a traditional amp setup will often chase after different physical setups, many of which work against the best benefits a modeler brings to the table.  A modeler really has FAR more in common with a recording studio than it does a traditional plug and play amp, and if you approach it that way and understand that the goal is to provide studio quality sound in a live environment you'll probably get much more out of your modeler than if you chase after physical setups that would be more appropriate to a traditional amp.

 

When you look at the facilities provided by the Helix for routing, signal path design, cabinet and mic'ing options, etc. it's clear to me that the more time you spend understanding recording techniques and how to best apply them, the more you'll get out of the unit.  And you don't really need a lot of complexity on the speaker/amp side.  Just a simple, clean, faithful reproduction of what comes out of the Helix.

 

Totally agree. This is the approach I've alway taken with modelers and have never expected them to be just like an amp.  I expect them to be like a mic'd amp in the studio.

[ricksteruk]

I think a lot of it has to do with training one's ear to listen to the guitar as if it's a professional recording rather than a live performance.  It's a bit of an adjustment but it can really have a prominent effect in a band situation so that everything has the feel of a professional mix and everything can be heard clearly without having to depend on volume.  Worth the effort in my opinion, and a real differentiator for a band from the masses.

 

I really do agree with this!  

 

As I am someone who has maybe spent as much time behind a live or studio console as I have on stage I really do see modellers like Helix offering the ability to achieve results very similar to what is possible in the studio.

 

In a live band situation there is this slight problem that a real drum kit can generate 120dB of ear splitting pain when up close which the rest of the instruments need to compete with.  We can either go the traditional route of providing a solid back line sound and wedge monitoring on stage for everyone to hear, or we can go modern and keep the stage volume down (of off!) and go for In Ear monitoring.

Or go further and use an electric kit.... the silent stage is a reality for some folks.

 

But there will always be people who want to "Keep it real" - and the good thing about Helix is that it can fit in to both approaches!

[ricksteruk]

BTW Roscoe did you try the speakers yet?

[roscoe5]

Speakers acquired.  The bad news is that both horns are blown.  The good news is I got them for $50 because of it and can order replacement diaphragms from Amazon for about $30 a pair.  They are very generic, typical bass cab Foster type horns.

 

They are actually smaller than I thought at 15"w x 14"d x 22"h, and about 37 lbs each.

 

The woofers are very dark sounding, almost guitar speaker-ish.  I'm not sure yet if it's the speakers or the crossover.  I will probably wire them up direct and test.

 

The 12" custom Mesa Eminence Deltalites in my bass cabs are much brighter.  So if I decide to keep them, a speaker replacement is likely in the future.  Once the replacement horn diaphragms come in, I will probably pull the Deltalites from the Mesa bass cab to test before ordering replacement woofers.

 

But these are far tighter than my bass cabs!  I think they will make great guitar cabs, and maybe even good bass cabs.

 

The stereo Crate Powerblock sounds nice too.  It is 75w a side at 4ohms and these are 8ohm speakers, so less power there.  The rig is definitely loud enough for home and may be just loud enough for a gig.

 

The L6 SV was okay, not as good as I thought it would be, but hard to tell with no horns and the darker Crate 12" speakers.  I think the Crate PB was clearer with the current Crate speakers.

 

 

[roscoe5]

I plugged straight into the 12" and it sounded much better. I'm not sure what frequency of the crossover is. I pulled a data sheet for a foster horn and it seems to pick up at 1khz. I would guess that crossover is at about 1khz as dark as the woofer sounds through it.

 

I wonder if dedicated guitar FRFR speakers have different crossover designs than PA speakers.

 

Modding the caps on the crossover board may be worth exploring. They seem high quality with nice thick traces.

[DunedinDragon]

I wonder if dedicated guitar FRFR speakers have different crossover designs than PA speakers.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're asking here.  Technically speaking modern FRFR speakers ARE PA speakers, and it's probably not fair to think about them as having crossovers exactly.  A crossover generally refers to a specific point in the frequency range below and above which all output is redirected specifically and solely to a speaker or speaker system.  The only time an actual hard crossover like that tends to come into play nowdays is between a subwoofer and mains and tends to be pretty low (around 100 to 125 hz).  Above that there's not typically any hard crossover, just the natural response of the speakers with a little help from the DSP design built into the powered speaker.

 

I think the issues you're running into here have more to do with passive speaker designs that don't have the benefits derived from modern DSP driven amp designs built into modern powered speakers.

[ricksteruk]

Yes you are right roscoe, the crossover will be removing higher frequencies from the bass driver using a LPF as well as removing lows from the tweeter using a HPF..... that is unless your speakers have really rubbish first order filters (would look just like one or two caps and a resistor - as opposed to a well populated looking circuit board.

 

And most modern FRFR speakers that you guys are using will still have such a crossover in them just like the ones in your Crate speakers.  Unless it specifically says that it is bi-amped like my RCF712a do (they have a 500W RMS LF amp and 200W RMS amp for the HF) it will use a single amp and passive crossover.

 

As you probably know by now Roscoe - I find this whole guitar FRFR thing a bit annoying.. they are simply made like other PA speakers.. yet people seem to think there's something else going on.

[zooey]

Crossover in a 2-way system is usually higher than 1k I think. My Alesis Alpha 112s for instance cross at 1.6k. They are biamped (350 W LF + 150 W HF Continuous RMS, they say), so that's different, but still I wouldn't expect a compression tweeter to perform well as low as 1k.

 

All due respect to Mr Dragon here, but I doubt very much that the tweeter in any passive system gets a full range signal, down into bass frequencies. It would die pretty instantly, too much power, too much excursion, just not designed for that. An inexpensive passive system may not have anything more sophisticated than a single capacitor keeping lows out of the horn, which doesn't produce a very sharp roll-off, but I'd be very surprised if there wasn't anything. They might let high end in the woofer just roll of naturally, since it won't cause any physical harm, but lows in the tweet, don't think so.

[roscoe5]

I was wondering specifically about the crossover point of the woofer and horn, i.e. f > 1khz goes to the horn and f < 1kHz goes to the woofer. 2-way crossovers on the Eminince site or listed at 500, 800, 1.6, 2.5, & 5 kHz models.

 

When comparing playing through my Mesa 1x12 + horn bass cab and Crate 1x12 + horn PA cab, the same 1x12 speaker in the PA cab does not have the upper end it did in the bass cab. The horns in both are foster type compression. When I set the Helix global eq high cut at 1kHz, it sounded about like it did when connected to the Crate crossover.

 

I can see how you may want a lower crossover point in a PA cab for booty bass music playback where you are going for thump in the woofer. But the crossover design seems different in the bass guitar cab, and I suspect in the FRFR cabs design for guitar. More of the high frequency range seems to be coming through the woofer.

 

Letting the woofer carry a bit more of the high frequency to say 1kHz - 5kHz could be more pleasing for guitar and bass and may project differently from the front of the cab.

 

So just for discussion, per the cut sheets for the 12" Eminence Deltalites the upper end of the usable frequency range is 4.3kHz. The foster usable frequency range starts around 1kHz. So selecting an Eminence crossover at 3kHz could sound better for guitar and bass than one at 800Hz or 1.6kHz.

 

Now this is where I can really see the benefit of active bi-amped speakers with digital DSP, different speaker modes, etc. I never thought about it when I owned the L6 Stagesource L2M, but the different speaker modes could have been changing the crossover points of the woofer / horn.

 

What could be really cool is to give the user control of that active crossover setting to adjust for their different rooms, venue, like they would global eq. Highs seem to project differently from the horn than they do from the woofer. This could potentially help out the FRFR users that struggle with position, projection, beamyness of horns, etc. Really it's just old school bi-amp and active crossover approach.

 

Maybe since I am hacking these cabs anyway, I'll remove the crossovers and wire the horn to a 1/4" jack, and the woofer to the other 1/4" jack on each speaker. I well set up a 4-ch biamp system with Helix taking advantage of the multi-paths. I'll run stereo amp to the woofers and the lower wattage stereo Crate Powerblock to the horns. No physical crossovers on anything. Then use Helix to Low Cut and High Cut the paths, and maybe even 10 band eq block, to fine tune the woofer paths and horn paths. It would certainly be cool to have this level of custom control per patch to fine tune IR's, acoustic guitar, bass, synth, etc. but could easily turn into high maintenance overkill and send me to the asylum.

 

This may drive me to request optional global eq settings for each Helix output so that we can setup bi or tri amp systems. We'll see.

 

If it all works out, maybe I can look a a more elegant amp solution like the Carvin 4ch power amp or something.

 

Maybe this type of control from Helix over L6 Link to L6 Stagesource speakers could be developed to give the best possible FRFR experience to L6 Helix users. I think it currently exists somewhat in the form of Stagesource speaker modes.

[roscoe5]

Ha, sometimes you just gotta read the back of the cereal box...

 

The crossover on the Mesa Scout 1x12 cab sounds best with Helix guitar cabs & IR's to me in the 3K - Bright position.  This indeed sounds like it is passing more highs to the 12".  The Crate PA speaker crossover must be at around 1.6 kHz, like zooey's Alesis 112's.  Crossover point could be what makes or breaks a PA speaker for guitar FRFR use.

 

[roscoe5]

Some of these observations my shed some light into the differences in feel from Helix into a traditional guitar rig and speaker with no horn and an FRFR with a horn.

 

A Celestion V30 has a frequency range of 70Hz-5kHz. In a guitar rig, you are getting that frequency and feel from the woofer and its projection pattern.

 

When you shift the 1kHz-5kHz + range to a horn, that seems to change the feel, pattern, and projection. Considering this, out of Matrix, Atomic, Line 6, and PA speakers as FRFR solutions, the Atomic CLR seems to make the most sense for close monitoring of guitar, with its concentric horn design.

 

Intuition and my observations of my Mesa Scout cab are leading me to believe that modding / replacing the crossover in the Crate PA speaker to 3kHz along with a good woofer replacement (Eminence Deltas or Kappa lites, etc...and open to suggestions), will result in some pretty good guitar / bass FRFR speakers.

 

Of course I have all of the components needed for testing, including Helix multi-path for bi-amp and precise horn and woofer tuning before making any physical mods to the Crate crossover.

 

If I nail the Helix end of it, I may just run stereo bi-amp and let Helix control it all. I will always be in different rooms and venues at different distances and orientations from my stage speakers. It may be beneficial to have full control over the frequencies, cuts, and levels of the woofers and horns separately. This is where Helix output-assignable Global EQ control could come in handy.

[roscoe5]

FYI, here's a pic of the Crate crossover.  Looks like they popped a cap...add that to the repair list ;)

 

Cap values are

 

C1 = 15uF

C2 = Empty

C3 = 3.3uF

C4 = 2.2uF

 

C3 + C4 (parallel) = 5.5uF

 

Resistors are 10 ohms each

 

[ur2funky]

Personally, the only use I have for a tweeter/horn in a guitar cab/frfr is if I'm using/emulating acoustic guitar.  Essential for believable acoustic tone.   Completely unessential for electric tones. 

[roscoe5]

Personally, the only use I have for a tweeter/horn in a guitar cab/frfr is if I'm using/emulating acoustic guitar.  Essential for believable acoustic tone.   Completely unessential for electric tones. 

 

I guess if the FRFR route doesn't work with this rig, I could go back to my tube amp and traditional cab (no cab models) setup approach with these cabs with a twist...put guitar speakers in these (V30's or C90's), stereo tube amp to the woofers and stereo Crate Powerblock to the horns for acoustic patches.  Use Helix to bring the horns/powerblock in and out on send / return blocks or split path.

 

Gonna stay on FRFR course first and see how that pans out.

[ur2funky]

On some of my Fender Mustang (modeling) amps I have added a piezo on a switch.  I turn the piezos on for acoustic songs, and they use the same Mustang power source.

[roscoe5]

Reporting back in.

Before I spent any $ on them at all, I really wanted to try them out.

I went ahead and put the tweeter diaphragm from my Mesa bass cab in the horn of one of the Crates that had the good crossover. Same type, 8 ohm still, and a perfect fit. I actually left it on the Mesa driver magnet base and bolted the Crate horn to it.

I ran the Crate PB in bridged mono which is 150W @ 8ohms to it. I tried stereo previously, but it was only 75W @ 4ohms a side and very weak into the 8 ohm speakers, maybe around 40W.

I ran it tilted back. Pole mount mid height would probably be fine too. I plugged the rear port as it was a little boomy for the room i was in, but an open stage would probably be ok. It is certainly gig volume. These cabs were a lot smoother than my JBL EON 515xt's and more suitable for guitar and modeler I think.

I ran through my Helix presets with the cab / IR path and actually enjoyed it as FRFR as the Crate rig may or may not be.

Then I hooked up the L6 SV...OMG it was killer!!! That horn made all the difference. I can't believe I can use all of my cab models and IR's, as well as acoustic IR's and/or acoustic guitar, with the L6 SV and the full range Crate cabs. And it's very close to to the live PA / headphone sound. It really seems like the best of both worlds. This would remove the need for me to split the path and I can just run the same signal to stage as FOH and still get real tube amp feel on stage.

I know some guys keep saying that any tube amp will color the sound and it's not FRFR. I'm tellin ya'll, the L6 SV is VERY neutral, so unlike all of my other Mesa and Marshall tube amps. It seems to have the clarity of SS with the presence and punch of a tube amp.

What do I do now? No effing idea. Just use the SV and the Crates (at least for a while) and save the cash? Drop a grand on a passive Matrix FR212? Put some Eminence Beta 12CX Coax's (used in Xitone cabs) in my Recto 212? Get two L6 SV 112 combos and replace the V30's with Eminence Beta 12CX Coax speakers for stereo?

I need to let this sink in...it seems too good to be true.

 

P.S.  I really hope Line 6 and Bogner are in the woodshed working on a stereo tube FRFR hybrid.

[roscoe5]

Madness in the lab...

 

[roscoe5]

Seriously...I just went through the factory presets again and they sounded great through this rig too. My presets with FOH path IR'S sound MUCH better also.  This is the first time I have heard the IR's I made in a full range guitar rig...it's only been headphones and studio monitors before.

 

FRFishRKAF...Full Range - Flattish Response - Kick A$$ Feel.  I did not feel like I was compromising on anything.  No weird frequencies to dial out with Global EQ (which I actually turned back off), just adjusted the presence knob on SV to about 75%.  It was the same feel and clarity I loved about Helix amp-only models>L6 SV>Recto 2x12, but now with cabs /IR's, acoustic guitar, and synth options.

 

Anyway, replacement tweeter diaphragms are on order.  I am upgrading the caps on the crossover from 50V to 100V caps too since one blew and the other is bulging.  If I'm not mistaken, 50V caps are good for about 100W and 100V for up to 200W.

 

I'm on the fence about the 12" speakers.  They are super cheap Crate SLM FST's, but sound good enough for now.  I'm not sure what to get...any suggestions?

I'll try and post some clips up this weekend. Never mic'd a full range cab. I have an AKG P420 condenser mic so I'll see if I can replicate what I am hearing.

The only thing I have to AB it with is the Crate PB or power section of my Mesa Walkabout bass amp. The M9 would blow the speakers.

[roscoe5]

Not sure if anyone was following this or even really cares since it's not the hip and cool new FRFR tech. But just to close out the thread...

 

FINALLY got some time today to repair the crossovers and horns on those Crates. I'm happy to report that they sound fantastic full-range with Helix cabs or 3rd party IR's with the Crate Powerblock in stereo.

 

Fully functional, great sounding stereo FRFR rig for about $200 for the Crate Powerblock and the pair of Crate PE-12H speakers, and replacement horn diaphragms & crossover caps. The Line 6 SV HD100 sounds great with them FRFR also, but it's not stereo.

 

I had some doubts about the stock Crate FST 12" speakers, but they sound just fine with everything repaired and up and running.

 

Going to try the rig out in rehearsal this week and then on a couple of gigs this coming weekend. I really like the portability since the Powerblock fits in the Helix bag and I can actually gig with one cab for the small stuff. If I need more headroom, I could get a second Powerblock and run them both bridged at 150W each instead of one at 75W a side, or pickup a rack stereo power amp.

 

I had my sights higher on a Mission Gemini 2 rig, and may still eventually go there. But this rig will certainly buy me some time, save me $1500 for now, and is a good FRFR gateway drug.

[bsd512]

Congrats, roscoe5!  I have been following this and was interested in the outcome.  Glad it worked out and your experience is a good reference, not to mention a nice bit of recycling something old and busted into something very useful, way better than aluminum cans and plastic bottles.  :)

 

For some reason the later photos aren't showing up for me, though.  Bummer.

[roscoe5]

I played for a couple of hours with the Crate rig today. I duplicated my L6 SV Recto 212 patches and put IR's and cabs back in them.

 

I ran the Android RTA Pro app after using the phone mic calibration feature, and everything seems pretty flat without Global EQ adjustments. I thought things sounded fine just playing, but thought I would check. Again, a real reference mic and DAW RTA plug in may be more accurate and may do that later.

 

The two speakers at 75W per a side with this rig is ear splitting. I cant imagine hundreds or thousands of watts. Maybe needed on a big outdoor stage or something.

 

I tried a few backline scenarios with me standing about 6-8ft in front of it with my back to it: speakers flat on the floor side by side, each up on a guitar amp stand, and stacked...stacked sounded amazing!

 

Vertical stereo is actually pretty cool, and this rig will have a VERY small footprint on stage. The stack-lock corners on the Crates are nice too. It felt like a 412 behind me with a lot more clarity. Really good thump as well, maybe from the bottom speaker coupled to the floor.

 

I've been so caught up in playing, I haven't even taken the time to clean them up and put the grilles back on yet. But here is the current Crate rig iteration. On to rehearsal this week, then gig this weekend.

 

 

PS: Apologies to Line 6 as well. A lot of my preliminary Helix and HX Cab judgement was based on a pair of Sennheiser HD280 headphones, M-Audio BX-5's, and JBL Eon 515xt's. No wonder a 12" and horn is such a popular FRFR format. Helix through this rig is blowing my mind with both HX Cabs and IR's.

[roscoe5]

Cleaned up, buttoned up, and ready to rock!

 

https://goo.gl/photos/DkPAeBGRkoDPxvF29

[zooey]

roscoe5, are those supposed to be pictures we can see? All I see is a grey circle with a "no" dash in it, in both your last two msgs. I am logged in, since I can reply.

[roscoe5]

They are in Picasa, which is now Google Photos.

 

I can see them, but maybe because I am logged into google. Weird.

 

I just went to an In Private tab and couldn't see them. Guess I need to find a different way to post photos.

[zooey]

Just FYI, the linked pic in your "Cleaned up, buttoned up" msg I can see when I navigate there. The apparently in-line pic in you "I played for a couple of hours with the Crate rig today" msg is still the grey "private image" (or whatever) icon.

 

Rig looks nice!

[roscoe5]

Thanks man. I'm sure the Google Photos issues are user error. I'll figure it out

 

I'm excited. Using it on a medium sized bar gig this weekend. I hope I get enough stage spread for the other bandmates and don't overpower FOH since we are using our JBL Eon PA.

 

I didn't put guitar in monitors on our small PA previously. But I will be open to it now. May end rotating the top or bottom speaker into the center stage a bit.

[bsd512]

Guess I need to find a different way to post photos.

One way is to attach the photo to the post itself.  When posting, click the "More Reply Options" at the bottom right beside the "Post" button.  Under there, you have the option to attach files, which can be photos.  They'll show up as thumbnails in the post, but when you click them, they go full size.  That way all the content is on the Line 6 servers and doesn't have to go off-site to google, photobucket, etc.

[roscoe5]

One thing I noticed about the Crate Powerblock is the tiniest bit of high frequency distortion that comes through the horns on the PE-12H speakers. It is only noticeable on a super clean patch in a quiet room right in front of the speakers and not with the full band. I dont get this when running through the SS power section of my Mesa Walkabout amp, so it's not the speakers.

 

I looked back at the manual for the CPB and it specifies THD of 10%. This would be likely unnoticeable with guitar cabs. The pic in the manual show it with 4 Crate 112 guitar cabs. I noticed that the CPB THD was also noticed and discussed in the old Line 6 POD forums as well.

 

So in conclusion, the Crate Powerblock will certainly do a fine job live with a band and I still plan on using it this weekend, and more for a while. But it's not going to be the cleanest studio amp. The CPB and pair of PE-12H speakers performance far exceeds the $200 price tag.